Can you teach your kids about projection / shaming without diagnosing the uPD??

[rockandhardplace]

After 16 years with an uPDh - pretty sure NPD - I am finally starting to see through the fog. I am way beyond thinking that there's any hope for us as a family. My primary concern is protecting my kids. When I think of how I lasted this long without seeing who he was I think I was just so easy going about everything, so easy to be controlled by him because I also hated conflict. Or maybe quickly but subconsciously recognised that challenging him always ended up with me feeling bad and nothing resolved. He has such a domineering personality. I once overheard him telling our then 6 year old that during a debate you state your case and you never back down. I think that's how he deals with all things in life. How he perceives things as being is how it is and because he actually does have good general knowledge so for many, many years I would mostly accept his explanations, versions of the truth. Even taking responsibility for issues that he caused. I'd know his you always / never statements weren't true, but I'd still feel there must be something in them or why would he say it. So when he yelled in my face and called me aggressive I tried to become even quieter, when accused me of not listening I tried to prove that I was. Etc etc I'm sure you all recognise this.
So my thing is, I realised a few years ago that my relationship with our eldest was being damaged by her seeing me through his eyes. He elevated her to be on same level in family hierarchy, she was GC, refused to let me take her to see a therapist even when her behaviour rang alarm bells for therapists I saw on my own. When i think back on most of the conflicts with uPDh he constantly shamed and blamed me for everything. And then his favourite thing was to accuse me of always blaming other people for my issues. I see so much projection now. I had no idea that someone could literally accuse another person of whatever they are doing. For nearly 4 years we've had no relationship at all, communicate only via text or email about kids, house stuff. He refused multiple invitations to counselling and gets quite abusive whenever I bring up our dysfunctional living situation (which I'm realising I shouldn't use that phrase) or just saying that living like this is bad for kids. His last crazy email was full of projections including twice telling me that I am burying my head in the sand. So the thing I keep thinking about is how could children ever recognise this for what it is if a middle aged woman with a psychology degree didn't?? I'm so worried about the lies / twisting of truth that he is already telling my kids. When she was about 8 and I would ask my eldest to do a chore she'd reply with things like "why can't you do it, you just want to be lazy and sit around all day, daddy works hard and you just do nothing" And it took me years to realise that he must've been feeding this crap to her.
One thing I have done with my youngest who is now 8 is talk about the characters in her books and how sometimes when people are angry they say really mean things that aren't true and that if she ever hears anything mean said about me to talk to me about it. I thought when we finally separate I can reinforce this with her and warn her that daddy is very angry and sometimes angry people say untrue things to be hurtful. Say I hope this won't happen. I've read so many books about parental alienation and none of them address how to prevent. Amy Baker has some good ways of talking to your kids when they attack you with misinformation, but in my case it's not clear lies like "mummy stole your college fund", it's just been a subtle undermining of me. Like him and eldest laughing at something I say - she'll say "oh what did you read that in your mums facebook page" and look at him and they'll laugh together. He already uses them to take a pop at me. Saying things like "even the kids are noticing" "kids won't respect you" as a way to try and reinforce that his low opinion of me is also shared by our kids. He makes up lies like telling me the kids can't understand why I'm back at uni. In that case I spoke directly to them and they had no idea what I was talking about.
I'm so worried about what lies he'll tell if I can ever escape. He already does the conditional love thing so encouraging them to reject me to earn his approval is already his MO. My eldest isn't GC anymore and this is very confusing for her. I was most worried about her as he would've installed her as the new mother in the house and she could've brought her siblings in too. But now it's my 13 year old son I'm most concerned about losing as he's the new GC and after being bullied by dad and older sister all his life is loving the attention and new status he has. When my eldest was really under his spell any hint of criticism she picked up from me towards her dad made things even worse. I remember her one day complaining that I got to chose everything in the house, everything was my way, because I picked the car colour. When I pointed out that I made literally no decisions ever, that all our trips for the last 8 years or something were picked by her dad - I don't ski, but every year we went skiing, never see my family, see his a few times a year etc. Saying anything she perceived as negative about her dad just always made things worse.
Sorry I didn't mean for this to become another long ramble. I just want to be able to prevent my kids becoming alienated from me. Apart from them being my whole life, I can't see how they could survive emotionally in an environment devoid of any real care or love, living in chaos with him. My youngest is the most emotionally aware kid because I stopped letting him control how I parented. But she's also sensitive and when she cries he gets more angry and will never ever comfort her. I don't want to leave her alone with him, but I don't want us all living in this hell forever.
Is there any way to talk to kids about PD without talking about it directly??

[notrightinthehead]

When I realized what I was dealing with, I stopped feeding my kids lies and excuses for has behaviour.  When they noticed something odd, or contradictory, I just said "Well, that's how dad is."  I validated their observations and feelings. When they sided with him, I medium chilled with them. I also tried to be as authentic as I could, given the difficult circumstances, with them.
Please stop beating yourself up about you should have known better. There are probably reasons why you could not see. You see now. You need all the strength you can find to deal with your situation now and make your future better. Beating yourself up about the past only weakens you. You are here now and you make a choice to make better decisions in your future.

[Boat Babe]

Imo the best thing you can do for your children is not have them exposed to dysfunction and abuse. It causes so much damage; in the moment and right into adult life. Check out the Parents and Elderly Parents boards here. You'll see us talking about the damage our parents did to us and some of us are well into our golden years.  In the UK, the government finally caught up with what the professionals in the field have been saying and now it is enshrined in British law that witnessing abuse of a parent is abuse in and of itself.

Please keep talking to us so we can support you. It sounds so awful for you. Hugs

[rockandhardplace]

I'm not sure I'm really beating myself up about not seeing what he's like, I think I just recognise that if I couldn't see it my kids have no chance! I do feel bad about mistakes I made with the kids that were while I was brainwashed. Like listening to him and not my gut and everyone else I talked to about worrying behaviours in my eldest. But moving on I feel more concerned that the kids don't and won't see through him. They will keep seeing him as all knowing, all powerful dad. Dad says mum is useless so she must be, therefore they aspire to dad's worldview of power, money, status, laughing at people, especially anyone who talks about feelings... emotions are for losers. Ironic really when he's the most emotionally reactive person ever.

Boat, I worry terribly about the damage he's doing to our kids. The law does not consider his behaviour to be abusive where I live. Bringing up psychological abuse in family court can actually hurt your case and kids can end up worse off spending more time with them. Rock and hard place is my user name for a reason I feel totally stuck. I stay they live in this crazy dysfunctional situation, but I can see what's happening, I have some agency to protect them. Leave and maybe they spend half or more of their time in a stable environment or he alienates them from me and they grow up thinking their mum was this awful person who rejected them and they are just left with his crazy games, aggression, nasty moods.

[Boat Babe]

Rockandhardplace, I understand your situation better now. How incredibly painful and difficult for you. Hang on in there.

[square]

That sounds incredibly difficult.

He is programming them with loud, toxic messages. My thought is that you have your own messages, quiet and MC but still there (as opposed to just letting it go without a response).

- You should do X because you don't do anything else
- That's your dad's opinion, but we all contribute and this is your contribution for today.
And since the dynamic you described suggesrs she won't just fold, refuse to JADE further and stick with "this is your contribution today."
If they run to dad and he overrules you, you are even more stuck. You may need to pick your battles. But I suggest if that happens, catch her alone afterwards, look her in the eye, and say calmly and firmly  "you should have done the chore" then walk away and let it go. Because even if you lose that power struggle you can still plant the seed.

It's just so ugly, I'm so sorry.