Being SHOULD'D by PD

[jennfr]

So I feel I've spent most of my adult life with a certain amount of focus on my emotional health.  When I learned & had it verified, years ago, that my mom has BPD, it explained So Much.  I feel that, mostly, i live in a pretty good headspace now.  (This board has helped me a lot!  Often without posting -- just thinking about posting here, has helped me work things through, many times over the years.)

I firmly believe my mom's BPD is not primary.  And it's Not malicious -- I feel the need to say that because, NOwadays, it seems researching BPD online just conflates it with narcissism, and worse.  She has severe ADD, and depression - these are Primary.  She grew up in a time when there was No Such Thing as females with ADD.  And the majority of her behaviors make 100% sense as either "this is ADD" --or else that-- she is Saying or responding TO ME, things that were appropriate-responses when they were Said To Her. 

Her behaviors and attitudes are reasonable Responses to someone with ADD & verbal-hyperactivity.   ONLY, she says these things to me, and acts these ways to me, when they DO NOT apply to me.  SO she has been UN-intentionally gaslighting me my whole life.  (This is Not a new revelation.  I guess I'm getting a little off-my-topic - grrr - i was just skimming an article saying that gaslighting can Only be done INTENTIONALLY... this is NOT true.)

RIGHT.  So for some time I did Very Low Contact with her.  Currently we talk by phone maybe once every couple weeks. (She lives far away.) The only really (mostly) safe subject is pets.

So every now and then I will have a new cute-or-funny pet-related story to share with her.  And invariably (....setting aside the other BPD-related aggravations in the convo's, as I deal-with them or brush them off...), she will respond with telling me I should  "write it down!" 

This is not just in-passing, but dumping a whole Load of Should on me. 

Now sometimes when we speak, she will get going with the should's -- that is, her OWN shoulds.  I will generally counsel her a little, because I don't want to be her dumping ground while she tells me how She SHOULD do this, and she SHOULD do that, and SHOULD do this other thing, and how she is NOT doing any of these things but OOOHHHH she knoowws she SHOOOUUULDDD....  etc etc.  And I will tell her, to NOT "should" herself, but to Do, OR Do-Not-do..  Etc.   (This type counseling is simply part of the price I choose to pay for any particular conversation.)

But I think she gets plenty of "should's" from people in her life.  Because she gets so un-stoppably passionate about everything.  It's natural to try to re-direct her verbal energy away from oneself and back toward her, suggesting she SHOULD go channel her energy into DOING whatever she is going-on about. 

AND similarly, i think all her life, she has been told, "why not write it down," as an effort to STOP her from incessantly communicating AT people. 

SO. I can write pretty well.  And I have often wondered why I don't seem to be able to "Do" anything with this skill.

But all my life, she has "SHOULD'd" me about writing. 

Now there is a forum related to my specific pets.  I sometimes find time to post there.  I often mean to post moreso than I do, but sometimes I enjoy posting my stories or questions, to be seen by folks who will appreciate or answer. 

But when I think my mom will appreciate a story, I will share it with her first.  I tell other friends too.  And then mom tells me how i SHOULD write it down, ''OOOOHHHHHH  you have all these cute stories, OOOOHHHH if only you would write them all, people would love to read them, ooohhhhh but you SHOULD write them down" (So not only becomes a giant 'SHOULD,' but even encompasses way more than just that one story I just shared.) 

But you know what my pets are for?  They are for to make me happy.  (Does that make me sound horrible? Don't worry, the way they make me happy, is by BEING happy.  I keep them healthy and happy, and I get rewarded by enjoying their happy healthy joyful selves.)  They are not for being SHOULD's.

But also sometimes I MIGHT enjoy writing and posting about them.  And here's the problem.  Here's the help I need:  I find the writing-about-them, gets turned Into a "SHOULD" by Mom's "you SHOULD write it down" comments.  (No.  Not "comments."  More like...  incessant really loud whining?  like a drill through the head really.... I mean, she doesn't DO simple "comments." It's half-hour or hour or however long before you shut it down or otherwise end the convo...)

So all the sudden going to that pet forum becomes a "should."  Well a SHOULD is only a SHOULD because it's been avoided.  So going to that website becomes something to AVOID doing --- OR ELSE --- something I'm doing Because i  SHOULD.  Either way, enjoyment has been sucked away. 

In fact I feel her "should's" about writing, may have been infecting me all my life --(I can write well, but I rarely do )--- and this might be just the example that is making me aware of it. 

But anyway (and TLDR) - I Need a SELF-TALK to Overcome this particular "SHOULD." If I write something joyful about my pets, I want to do so Because I want to do so.  I don't want to Lose that "want-to" because my mom says whines dumps a "should" at me.  She is full of these "shoulds" and i normally reject them or shake them off, but it seems the ones about writing, seem to sticK. 

Any suggestions?

[FromTheSwamp]

My suggestion would be to write the cute story on the pet forum, and not tell your mom, or tell her much later.  Separate the writing from her.

[guitarman]

I can relate to a lot of what you posted about.

I have an undiagnosed BPD/NPD sister. I used to get lectured by her and listened to her stream of consciousness conversations for hours and hours. She used to frequently contradict herself within the same sentence.

I eventually understood that she was projecting her own problems, fears and worries onto me. She would tell me what I should do, when it was what she should be doing herself. 

For myself I learnt to replace "should", "could", "need" or "must" with "want". What do I WANT to do? If I don't want to do it I don't.

That has reframed how I live my life now. It is a lot less stressful because I answer my needs and desires first, not other people's.

If we have grown up in a codependency or abusive relationship it can feel strange to put our needs first. We can be people pleasers because we could fear the consequences when we were younger if we didn't make other people happy.

We need to work on building our self esteem first and becoming more assertive. You seem to have been able to stick to some firm boundaries already. So well done.

Whatever happens I remain calm. You can't change anyone else's behaviour you can only change and control your own.

Observe, don't absorb.

I have been practising Mindfulness guided meditations regularly and that has helped me to remain calm and live in the present moment.

I follow the Mindfulness teacher Tara Brach online. She gives regular free talks. She has a lovely soothing voice.

Her website is www.tarabrach.com

I hope this is of some help to you.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

[pianissimo]

To me, it sounds like you have been talking to your mother about things you genuinely care. Pets and stories about them could be your vulnerability, by which I mean, when people talk about them, what they say might find a way to your heart. This could be a reason why your mother's SHOULDs are affecting you.

It seems like you care a lot about your pets, and they bring you happiness. Your mother's SHOULDs imply your pets do not have value unless they do something for you. Also, it seems like your time with your pets and what you do related to them is for leisure. I think SHOULDs challenge what you do in your leisure time too. So, you might feel unseen in these kinds of conversations.

I wonder how your mother is reacting when you express your doubt or unwillingness. You might need a boundary around this topic, like if the SHOULDs appear, you could tell your mother you don't like talking about what to do with stories. 

[bee well]

Hi Jennfr.

I, too, sense an intrusion of personal space.

As Pianissimo suggests: "You might need a boundary around this topic, like if the SHOULDs appear, you could tell your mother you don't like talking about what to do with stories."

Not talking about it (sometimes we do spontaneously share, we are human), and telling your Mom once, and then redirecting or ending the conversation every time she brings it up (consequence) might lead to her talking less about the topic. She'll likely latch onto something else. That seems to be part of the pattern when personal information is shared with uPDs. Rinse, repeat cycle.

Guitarman writes:

"For myself I learnt to replace "should", "could", "need" or "must" with "want". What do I WANT to do? If I don't want to do it I don't.

That has reframed how I live my life now. It is a lot less stressful because I answer my needs and desires first, not other people's."

If there is an activity that you want to do, by all means do it because you want to! It's your life to live.

From the Swamp says:

"My suggestion would be to write the cute story on the pet forum, and not tell your mom, or tell her much later.  Separate the writing from her."

In my view this gets to the crux of it. When someone has invaded our space/ broken a boundary, or caused us discomfort or pain in other ways,  we may not want to be near something that reminds us of that, even if it is something we enjoy. For example, listening to music, visiting a certain place, or even writing on a pet forum.

Some of us find that we get worn down and sadly,  eventually our list of hobbies and pleasures gets whittled down.
It can be very empowering to take those things back.

Having said that, It's your activity and you have a right to do it on your own time and not be interrupted, even indirectly.

When you hear that "should" voice it could be helpful to say, in your head, "Stop, Mom! "This is my space, and I can do what I like here! Go away! " and mentally visualize closing a door so you can continue your activity.

It may feel strange so not sure if that will work for you. I have found it helpful to repeat these types of messages to myself when distracting (for lack of a better word) FOO thoughts interrupt my life.

What you wrote here sounds familiar:
"I eventually understood that she was projecting her own problems, fears and worries onto me. She would tell me what I should do, when it was what she should be doing herself."

It sounds like your Mom doesn't see where she ends and you begin.

This reminds me of some concepts that Jerry Wise talks about in his youtube videos. (Not sure if you have heard of him or not, but I will put it out there. I think guitarman has talked about J.W. in the past as well.) Wise breaks down how "undifferentiated" families function as systems, and the individual member's role in that.  He helps people to remain steady, and to kindly detach from intrusive family members.

Just as an aside, and I don't know if this would apply to your situation, by my own uPD Mom would give me the "shoulds" and lots of other imperatives into adulthood, even about the most basic things. ( I often had an inclination not to follow her advice, even if it was good, due to its insistently inconsistent nature). It was likely not an intentional behaviour but I found this highly annoying because this contrasted with the abuse, neglect, and lack of attention in other, more important areas of my life.  I reflect on this years later, and I see it as a form of gaslighting. I've gone on a lot in my head about the intentionality or lack thereof but have come to the conclusion that it's not so much the intention, as the end result that mattered.

[bee well]

P.s.
I am not sure it was clear when I wrote:

"When you hear that "should" voice it could be helpful to say, in your head, "Stop, Mom! "This is my space, and I can do what I like here! Go away! " and mentally visualize closing a door so you can continue your activity."

This might make the idea clearer:

"When you hear that "should" voice averting you from your writing,  it could be helpful to say in your head or possibly out loud "Stop, Mom! "This is my space, stay out of it.  I can do what I like, when and where I like! Go away! " and mentally visualize closing a door so you can do your activity."

[Cat of the Canals]

For myself I learnt to replace "should", "could", "need" or "must" with "want". What do I WANT to do? If I don't want to do it I don't.

Both my PDmom and PDmil do a LOT of "SHOULDing," and my internal monologue when it happens is, "I'll do it if I want to, when I want to."

The last time PDmil visited, she got a bee in her bonnet about salad. If she was having a salad with her meal then everyone else should too.  I actually like eating salad, but it was annoying to have someone trying to dictate my meal like I was a child. So I would refuse salad and have it when she wasn't around. Which might sound petty, but it was a way for me to make the boundary clear (I will not accept someone telling me what/how/when to eat) and still do what I wanted when it suited me.

[moglow]

It sounds like you're onto something here. What she's been told to do somehow applies to everyone else, possibly to the exclusion of herself. No apparent clue that you're not ruminating at all, but just wanting to share a sweet or funny story with her. My own grasps at safe conversation went off in tangents of unnecessary instruction I never saw coming.

As for the BPD issues, "Understanding the Borderline Mother" talks about different types, and this kind of sounds like more the waif/hermit mother possibly with her own control issues coming to the fore. Mine seemed to bounce around, depending on her audience and the effectiveness of different behaviors, and honestly I question the intentions overall. Some of hers frankly seems much more intentional than not.

[jennfr]

Thank you all so much for your thoughts.  I've been letting them percolate and they are ALL really helpful. 

One of you said, "To me, it sounds like you have been talking to your mother about things you genuinely care..." and that perhaps I need a boundary around this. 
This stuck out, as it is both true and also not true.  My mom is indeed highly emotionally-intrusive.  There are SO MANY subjects that have to be off-limits.  Almost All, in fact!   SO I don't want another boundary here. This particular subject is my reach-across-the-boundaries, handshake-subject.  There's no need to discuss my pets with her.  I only do it as one of the few or only subjects that can be discussed. 

Despite the need for So Many Boundaries, i'm doing my best to maintain somewhat of a relationship with her.  She is my mom, i do love her, and unlike many with similar issues, she is Not malicious at-heart.   She's just all-scrambled-up!  (A good friend of mine described her thus, decades ago, and sometimes I still think it's the most accurate description).

So currently.  With the cute stories of my pets.  To some extent... I save them up.  If I were not gonna share the story with her -- i might  take the time to write it, save it to the pets-related website.  Or i might not.  ... and then, I would not necessarily remember it, the next time we spoke. 

So basically I save some of "good' stories for her.  WRITING a story takes time.  But, so does TELLING a story.  Really, me Saving up that story to Share with her -- it's a kind of GIFT for her.  And having TOLD it - well - maybe later i might feel like taking the time to write it, for myself, so that I can enjoy remembering it later.  OR, maybe not. 

But WRITING the story - that would Not be the gift for her.  IF i wrote it, and then sent it to her, or directed her attention to it, etc. ... well she would respond with praise.  BUT she would not have had time spent with me.   It would Not function as a gift to her.

And although her actions are fully dis-respectful of other peoples' time (including my own), so that you would think she does not value the time you give her --- yet she craves it.  She gets to Feel like we have a relationship if she can use up my time.  So, me telling her these cute stories of my pets -- this is a Gift I give to her.

So it is not all surprising that she casts it away.  Undermining or devaluing gifts, is something else she does.  Something I put effort into for her, will be devalued in some un-expected way.  (Cards are actually ok, she's good with cards.)   Years past, when she would come to visit, I would arrange for us to do something that She would love.  (Yes I DO know what she does & does not like.  She spent the first half of my life stream-of-consciousness monologuing me!)   She would either insist on doing something far less enjoyable, or else somehow sabotage the actual plan.  (And then spend time bemoaning the missed enjoyment.)  And this is what she is doing, when I save a cute-story for her, and she tells me I "should write it down!"

And so this is helping me to clarify.  The stories I tell her, about my pets -- these are GIFTS that I give to her.   They are a gift of my time, and it is not at all surprising that she is going to undercut that - because that is what she does.  I don't really want to put a boundary here... in fact, this is me, reaching across the boundaries.  I tell her stories of my pets because it is really about the ONLY safe topic.  I could just as easily not tell her.   She would not even know.

And, I think I have even figured out what to do.  One ball-bounce back into her court.  (One only!)  Next time we talk, I plan to tell her this--partially!!  I plan to just tell her, that in most cases, I would probably Only EITHER tell my story OR write it.  Because BOTH take time.  I'll ask if she would like me to continue to occasionally TELL her a story of my pets.   

THEN if she says she likes to hear the stories (as she has stated in the past) - then, the next time she responds by telling me I should WRITE it - then it will just be a Reminder, when I re-explain that I'll probably only write OR tell a story, and probably not both. 

That way, I can Remind her that She is telling me she does Not Want to Hear the story, when she tells me to Write it. 

To me, for now, I think this is the solution.  I don't want to make yet another boundary here -- the pet stories are reach-across-the-boundary attempts.   AND i don't really want to try to communicate how the "write it down!" equates to "pleaseshutup," because as stated at beginning of thread, I think she does get the "write it down" from Others, and it would probably be disastrously threatening to her --(and thus a subconscious reason to attack me)--to make that connection directly.

But instead I can just repeatedly appeal to my own time-limitations.  I can remind her each time she tells "write it down," that I will do One Or the Other -- did she Not want to have heard this particular story?? 

I don't think this is gonna stop her. 

BUT it does mean, i have a response for her "SHOULD" on this matter.  A response, both to share with her directly, and also a mental-divert FOR MYSELF.  This little mental gymnastic so that writing or not-writing reverts back to being about what how I want choose to spend my time.  THIS way, this mental reminder to myself, can DETACH writing-or-not-writing from her SHOULDs.  So that I am no longer either rebelling or complying with her directive.