Establishing ownership

[Prototypian]

My uOCPDw has a strange connection to ownership of things and others actions.   I've been at a public park with her before and found a fast food cup with lid by a bench and threw it away and she was emotionally distraught that the cup "belonged to someone" and I was not sure that it wasn't left beneath the bench on purpose.   I saw it as trash, no one was around and I also saw my act as no bid deal.   But she wasn't just concerned, she couldn't let it go.   She kept bringing up the problem for more than a day after the event.  She kept coming back to the issue worrying about if someone had lost their drink.   For at least a day.

I'm bringing this up because the old guys I work out with and I do a weekly jog on Friday mornings and rotate through who hosts coffee after the run.  This week was mine to host and I bought a tube of commercial cinnamon rolls from a local market.   My daughter was evidently excited about the cinnamon rolls and I thought nothing of it.  This morning we did our run and I made the cinnamon rolls.   And my spouse has come back to ask me detailed questions about why I fed my friends my daughter's cinnamon rolls.   She hadn't let you.   Question after question: "you're sure those weren't our daughter's?" "Did you talk to her about the cinnamon rolls" "who specifically bought those". "do you recall the day when you bought them" "is is possible you bought a different set and that can got lost" "I think we should wake her up and let her know"

And on and on.   I'm on work calls, the kid is asleep and I keep thinking "when is thing going to go away" because it is a 3 dollar can of cinnamon rolls I bought at a store when I realized I was hosting this week.   I didn't think about it, I didn't care and I have spent nearly 45 minutes having to come into the kitchen to do things like show her where I had put the can in the fridge and talk about what brand I bought.

When I asked her why this is such an issue she said "I think these belong to our daughter and you used them without asking"

Except our daughter doesn't drive, just got her first job this summer as a 15 year old teenager and wasn't there when I bought them.  I think our daughter just saw what I bought and was excited.   

The thing is this sense of "who does is belong to" is so all encompassing that it overtakes all of normal stuff for the household.   Leftovers in the fridge (we have three kids ranging from 15 to 22 and two are in college) can not be even touched or thrown away after days unless absolute ownership and certainty is established.   And the tough thing for me is that the quizzing and need for sorting out ownership keeps going and going until long after the "leftovers" or "trash" or whatever we are talking about is long gone. 

I often feel like I'm dealing with a detective trying to wear down a murder suspect with questions going over and over again trying to catch someone in a lie and trap them.   But in this type of case I just don't get why we can't simply let the issue go and assume that no one cares.

[justducky]

Although I don't think my father was OCPD--more of a non-grandious N with lots of anxiety--your spouse's behavior sounds like an exaggerated version of my father's constant criticism. As his behavior worsened over the years, the variety of things he'd get worked up over and verbally and emotionally abuse you with broadened. I was yelled at for not using a paper towel enough before throwing it away. He harangued my enabling and possibly covert N mother for hours because she put a stamp on a letter crooked.

Ever since I could remember he'd interrogate my mother after we'd left a family event to be sure we hadn't forgotten anything. We never drove more than two hours, so it's not like any forgotten items were gone forever. But he made every single drive home miserable.

My mother very rarely forgot anything. uPD father must have been so disappointed.

The incident that made me realize he was inventing things to grill people over for funsies was one time as a teenager when I got back from my part-time job. My family had two cars. I borrowed one to get to and from work. I knew from hundreds of other examples that I would be asked at least two questions upon entering the house: 1) Did you turn the lights off? and 2) Did you lock the car doors*?

Yes and yes, I replied.

uPD father paused, then said, "Did you turn the engine off?"

That was just absurd. I lost my temper and snapped, "Of course I turned the engine off!"

uPD father acted like I was overreacting, but went back to watching TV. Thankfully the incident didn't escalate.

Based on my father's behavior, I think PDs' Spanish Inquisition act is often made up and used as a twisted means of control and getting attention.

* Our neighborhood was a quiet, safe, suburban one. There was no need to lock car doors, yet uPD father obsessed over locked car and house doors.

[BeautifulCrazy]

jsinjin,
You don't have to engage in the inquisition.
After assuring her once that you are quite sure, you are perfectly justified in refusing to continue and walking away.
No guilt or obligation.
Just 'No'.
I remember how freeing it was to refuse the garbage inquiries with my OCPDh.
When he asked "Why?" something had been thrown out, I stopped doing the twenty questions.
I practiced with my therapist and began telling him, "I considered it trash and I threw it out."
If he continued, I informed him I had already discussed it as much as I was able or willing to, told him to do whatever he liked with the garbage and then found myself something to do elsewhere.
It was a hard habit to break, but once I realized engaging is a kind of consent/ enabling of the bad behavior, I couldn't play that game anymore.

[justducky]

You don't have to engage in the inquisition.
After assuring her once that you are quite sure, you are perfectly justified in refusing to continue and walking away.
No guilt or obligation.
Just 'No'.

The only problem is that IME the PD will follow you around and try to trap you in a room to continue the interrogation. So you have to plan ahead on where to be so you don't get trapped.  I did this as a teenager and spent a lot of time outside, on my bike, at friends' houses, and staying late at school whenever I could.

[Prototypian]

The only problem is that IME the PD will follow you around and try to trap you in a room to continue the interrogation. So you have to plan ahead on where to be so you don't get trapped.  I did this as a teenager and spent a lot of time outside, on my bike, at friends' houses, and staying late at school whenever I could.

Yeah, that's the tough part for me!  My uOCPDw has infinite patience and absolutely no decorum about bringing the 20 questions up at any opportunity she spots.   We could be at an eagle scout ceremony, trying to catch a plane, I could be about to jump on a call with an executive at work, or just sitting down to read and chill for the first time that week, and that moment becomes the time that we have to go over something like that even if it is from days ago.   

In the OCPD world, I've learned it's not about her or control or anything else, it's about what is right.

My son is a runner and part of his high school team.   The young men are friends and exercise together every day.   Right or wrong there is a goofy trend among the kids when they go to cross country meets to steal posters from other teams cheering groups as trophies.   When they go to a cross country meet and compete, they also look for those homemade posters used for other teams that are put up along the course and they bring them home for their locker room as "trophies".   Over the years their locker room has filled with this stupidity covering walls, ceilings and space with dumb poster board signs that say everything from "go tigers" to "caution runners crossing" (taken from a course where the runners crossed a path).   As I understand it, this behavior is replicated across all the cross country teams in our area.   I truly don't think that anyone cares but the 14-18 year old makes engaging in it and they seem truly dedicated to the taunting of other teams on Instagram by showing that their locker room has a "go tigers" poster in it.   

My spouse considers this abject stealing.   They had no permission to take the homemade posters, someone out effort into this and they are stealing property.   She can't handle it.   The coach has been approached by my spouse and he indicated that he is not concerned as long as they are not taking permanent signs or hurting property and these things always get thrown away after the races.   I know it's her sense of absolute fairness, ownership and sense that nothing that should be wasted ever under any circumstances that drives her to this.  What I see as adolescent male stupidity with only a slight element of bad behavior she sees as theft of private property that someone put enormous time and effort into and they "probably intended to keep that and use it again"

Our daughter attended one of the military academies in our country.  I recall as parents we walked around the campus led by cadets and the young woman took us to the honor wall.   She explained that their honor code is that a cadet will "never lie cheat nor steal nor tolerate those who do" in big aluminum letters.  She also explained that during their freshman year they are taught the morale building practice of spirit missions where they do not "steal", they "tactically acquire" flags, spirit logs (giant logs the freshmen have to carry around with them) or other items on campus and tactically acquiring things from the enemy is not stealing so it does not violate the honor code.  The cadet laughted said, "go ahead and take the picture" and pointed to the wall where the foot high aluminum letters of the honor code were there to and the word "steal" had been stolen as a tactical acquisition.  The cadet went on to tell us that they suspect one of two platoons and no one will fess up and they are doing hundreds of push ups a day and that they letters will probably come out during graduation.   

I found the whole escapade to be hysterical.   My spouse literally was upset and conflicted on the way home.   She couldn't handle the ethical and moral dilemma.   I think that this was one of the times where she was simply not able to comprehend that there wasn't a moral issue here.

I once taught a Sunday school class where we talked about whether a practical joke of grabbing your friends pen while they weren't looking with the intent of giving it back after a few minutes was stealing and against a commandment or if it was simply connecting with your friend in a relationship that shows some joy in having fun.   Most got it but there were one or two kids who really believed in the letter of the law and this joke being a sin of stealing.

I guess it's just that some people are impaired like humor impaired people.   

[Cat of the Canals]

In the OCPD world, I've learned it's not about her or control or anything else, it's about what is right.

But isn't being "right" all about control? Because who determines what is "right?" It seems that to an OCPD person, only their opinion of what is "right" matters. And they wield it like a weapon.

[BeautifulCrazy]

 

I agree with you Cat!!

My OCPDh displays nearly identical behaviors to those of Jsinjin's spouse. The only difference is that his "right" is less likely to be a social, political or otherwise generally accepted rule/ law/ ethic/ morality. 

And then, if rightness is such an all encompassing concern, how "right" is it to abuse your spouse or children? Or to value their well being below that of any random stranger?

I don't care what is behind the behavior. Abuse is abuse. And it certainly is NOT Right.

[Prototypian]

I understand both of your perspectives.   Believe me!  And I didn't meant to say I agree she is right.  I just mean she isn't manipulating me in the same manner that a narcissist is to get me to be controlled.   She treats everyone she knows in this way.  It's weird that she goes through life with nothing but meetings and events and has no friends at all.   She will stop anyone who is doing something she sees as wrong and call them out.   For her the absolute nature of all things real or imagined that are right or wrong has to be addressed immediately.  I'm not talking about speeding through a school zone or littering.   I'm talking about someone who would count the items of the person behind her in the 15 items or less line and if they have 16 would let them know and if they ignore her she would escalate into an argument and bring in the manager (who doesn't care) in a grocery store.   She is an elected official and when someone has a three minute time period to address the board in public commentary the limit is exactly 3 min and she will stop them and have their words past three min exactly stricken from the record.   The rule matters much much much more than the words someone is saying.  Other people going faster than the speed limit upset her with anger, selecting a TV for our home took more than a year of absolute worry because she had two conflicting pieces of data that said the optimum viewing size vs the distance from the couch.   We lived without a TV for that long because she couldn't just choose a big TV that looked good at Costco.   She couldn't take a chance that one website about choosing a TV size was different than another.

It's the same thing with the ownersip thing.   To her I think she assumes that every single person in the world must do everything the deliberate and rule filled way that she does and there couldn't possibly be a way someone didn't do something deliberate.

I have a second home that's mine.   She hates it because it's mine but it is mine.   I'm completely afraid of this but there are two flowering plum bushes that flank the path from the street to the house.   They have been there for years and are full of wasps and overgrow the brick path.   Everyone who has ever helped me there asks when I'm taking them out.   She is violently angrily opposed to taking them out because someone sometime planted them there and to take them out is to somehow destroy the plans and effort that this person did.   I'm scared because I know this is the kind of thing that in the past she goes from just upset to violently angry.   But it comes down to an ownership thing.  She sees that someone else did that and we really don't have permission or understand the motivation that they had and therefore we can't just destroy somehtjgnthay isn't ours.

[Cat of the Canals]

I understand both of your perspectives.   Believe me!  And I didn't meant to say I agree she is right.  I just mean she isn't manipulating me in the same manner that a narcissist is to get me to be controlled.   

Genuine question, and I'm not trying to be glib or snarky or anything. I've noticed you have a tendency to want to distinguish her behavior as being different from a narcissist's behavior, and I'm curious if it's for the sake of accuracy/clarity or if there's some desire to paint her behavior as "not as bad" as a narcissist? (Or perhaps some other reason.)

I point out the latter possibility because a lot of us have this urge to downplay the abuse we've experienced by comparing it to some other form of abuse and discounting it as "not as bad as that." Mine would be, "My mother was emotionally abusive, but she never hit me, so it wasn't as bad as kids who were physically abused."

[Prototypian]

COTC

Nothing like that.   I think I just have a tendency to categorize things.   It's not defending her as I unload on my therapist about her behavior.   But since this is a sub forum on behaviors I am over analyzing.   I have a background in mathy physics and applied math and to be honest I never even took a psychology class.   For so many years I just spent all my time trying to figure out what I wasn't getting.  When I came on this site I started learning some things that fit.   Then when I started meeting the sub set of people with OCPD spouses or loved ones I had this absolute brilliant burst of light from the fog.   The behaviors weren't just similar they were completely and totally identical.   My curiosity is so deep in why why why she chose to live this way. 

There is a test that they did in the hedge fund world where you have three doors.   It costs a buck to open a door.   Behind the door can be positive or negative money.   You start off with 10 bucks.   But the other two doors shrink if you click on a door and After 10 non clicks they will disappear.  After a few clicks it becomes fairly clear that one of the doors is giving a consistent return while the others have wild swings.   What they want to see is if you have the motional willingness to let the ones go that have no return.  Most people give up on the other two doors after a realization that they're losing money on them.   The goal is to get to 100 dollars fastest but the psychology experiment was to see if you were willing to let something go.

I had my wife play it and she kept the two losing doors going forever.  She never let them go.   I have no idea what trauma or behavior or commection or error in her past clicked her into this. 

As far as defending her, I definitely wish hope and pray she will stop treating me like crap, I wish I could just enjoy my life, my spouse, my kids, my career, my vacations, and the things that are normal.   I'm petrified of leaving because I don't know what's out there. 

So I'm not justifying her behavior but if I hear years of anger over sending Christmas cards without her review I am so completely petrified of leaving the house.

I had issues four years ago before coming to Out of the FOG.  It was so bad that my family (sisters and father stepped in) and moved me out.   This was after I sat in front of the emergency room wanting to self check in for ideation around something that can't be discussed on the forum.   My spouse talked me out of going in for some reason and my sisters and father went nuts.  They staged an intervention and moved me out and got me into an outpatient program for mental health.   

To this day, my wife hasnt addressed it or any of those feelings.   She only expressed anger and emotions about the fact that my family doesn't like her and they didn't tell her that they were doing that and it wasn't right since she is the spouse.   She is a very strange person and I don't understand her at all

[square]

I also find myself having to explain how some of my H's behavior isn't narcissistic. It's not to say it isn't problematic or even abusive but it's not narcissistic. I think cluster B is best understood and it can tgen be hard to distinguish what is cluster B fron what is general across PD.

So my H, for example, desires no attention, would in fact abhor it. It's natural for people in a cluster B sea to assume a given behavior is attention-seeking but it just isn't. As cluster A, he just wants to be left alone, and attention from others feels not pkeasing but potentially threatening. Compliments can be perceived as attempts to manipukate him, expressions of interest may make him wonder what someone wants from him.

All of that is to say, I believe you, jsinjin, when you say the driving motivation is a sense of right and wrong, or rules. Control is the result, but not the primary driver as in cluster B. If a typical cluster B person gets a sense of satusfaction about controlling someone, they enjoy the power, or perceive it as evidence they are loved or adored. I understand your spouse uses control not to feel powerful or adored but to quiet the anxiety that arises when a rule is not followed.

And I don't hear you saying it's any less of a problem. It's obviously an enormous problem.

[Prototypian]

Absolutely ^2!

It's a huge problem.   I'm really just clarifying for my own benefit.   My spouse actually gets little satisfaction from accolades, she doesn't want to be paid, prefers to not stand out and her roles in leadership aren't ever for anything other than administrative.   In fact she avoids any spotlight at all.   But she loves to be in roles that allow her to follow and enforce complex rules which is why she always tends toward bureaucracy of public civil service. 

You know those huge binders of stuff that explain something like a set of codes for city services?  There is usually a short version that explains stuff like the dates and times for trash pick up or when the parks are open.  Then there is a long form for the administration of stuff the city does with code enforcement and laws and stuff.  Even though none of it is related to her she has purchased sets of these for the town we live in and read every word and can point to anything I have done wrong like the length of grass or distance the mailbox is from the curb is off by an inch or the proper size of our house numbers on the home.   And if there isn't a rule it can not be done.   You can't just choose to do something.   I built a tall chin up rig that also lets me climb a rope and she was so upset and frustrated she actually called code enforcement and had them come look and they said "it's not actually something we regulate" and I think that hurt her faith in the city.  We live on a multi acre tract of land I was fortunate to purchase and the chin up bar is way in the back.

[justducky]

This is an academically fascinating discussion of OCPD vs. NPD behaviors.

The abuse described is awful. Stifling might be a better word.

Jsinjin, I'm glad that you recognize it as abuse, and that your family stepped in and helped you a few years ago when you needed help. Congrats again on the house you alone own and will soon move in to!

[Cat of the Canals]

Thanks for humoring me, Jsinjin. And for what it's worth, I also find comfort in analyzing/categorizing the behaviors and traits, so I hope my post didn't sound critical. I've learned quite a lot about OCPD from your posts.

[Prototypian]

Thanks all!  I never take things on this forum from any of you as being critical!   Everyone here is so supportive even amidst the day in and day out strife.   We have a ton of "issues" together and we are all figuring things out.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I grew up with an uOCPD parent, Jsinjin.  It's horrifying, crazy-making, infuriating, and isolating ... also repulsive when it came to the condition of the house.  I've also lived with BPD/NPD stuff, so got exposed to those PD flavors, too.

Yes, I know the absolute rigidity and the total conviction the OCPD has that there is one right way for everything and that they are the ones who know what that is.  And if people don't follow that, "they should be MADE to" do so.  (Like maybe some police type force would go around manhandling people into "proper" behavior?)  Some nature/nurture combo brought about the disorder.  And since denial that the dysfunction has anything to do with them is a feature of the disorder, they are unlikely to get help for it or change.  At least that's my understanding.

For me, over long years, I found the questions I had around "Why are they like that?  Why do they keep doing that?  Why don't they see what they're doing and do what's needed to get better?" had more to do with my inability to fully see and accept them as they are than anything to do with them.  And why did I have such trouble accepting that this is how they are and probably always will be and they're extremely unlikely to change?  Similar to what you said "I'm petrified of leaving."  While I was too scared to move on,  I couldn't really let go of the idea that maybe this could change.  And that led me to see the ongoing PD behavior as something surprising, when, in fact, it was as predictable and "normal for a pwPD" as it could be.  I might as well have been saying "Can you believe this person with untreated epilepsy keeps having seizures?"

Decades of therapy and codependency recovery work brought me to a point where I could walk out or hang up the phone, mid-sentence if necessary, when someone was abusing, haranguing, or even just continuing to talk to me about something I'd said I was through talking about.  I might try a few rounds of the broken record first "I'm not engaging in this discussion anymore."  Then I remove my ear and they can talk to dead air space if they want.   I might drive away if I can.   If not and they try to force their presence on me after I've tried to walk to another part of the property or closed myself in another room, I might say (continuously in a strong voice with no break for them to try to engage me ) This is abuse. This is abuse.  This is abuse.    Usually, after 5 seconds or so of that they go away in a huff.  In very few instances I've had to move on to telling them I was going to call the police.  (Now I'm at the point where I don't live with any pwPD's anymore.)

This stuff was unimaginably hard to start implementing after years of the old dynamic and in the face of my feelings of fear, obligation & guilt.  I had to have support from a therapist as well as 12 step friends to remind me I have a right  to not engage in dysfunctional or abusive interactions.  Believe me, I never felt I did have that right.  I had to start changing my behavior anyway.  I had to remember slogans like "Act as if"  "Do the actions and the feelings will follow." and make phones calls to supportive friends or post in this type discussion board when my courage or clarity were flagging.

I've still got a ways to go on this journey.  I'm so glad the support here is available!