Is this the last straw?

[beepositive]

Well, here we are. It has been a very hard week. We are scheduled to attend a family reunion this weekend, but it appears we will be calling off our trip.

Background: my wife and I moved back to my hometown where my mom had already recently moved back to, all of us settling here about 4-5 yrs ago. We have twins who were just 2.5 at the time; they are now 6. A couple years back my wife and I set clear boundaries with my mom after several incidents which had led me to believe that she is a narcissist. One of those boundaries is that she will no longer have the kids over to her house or do things with them alone. For safety and other reasons. It just didn't work for us. The other boundaries have to do with not guilt tripping us, not giving gifts with strings, and things like that. Ultimately though, you all probably know too well, narcissists don't like boundaries.

She has continually asked, every six months or so, if she can now see the kids alone. We keep saying no. She obviously thinks it's something where she has to prove herself by being "good," and then we'll change the rules. That's not quite how we see it.

Most recently, she asked me (alone) if it could change. I admittedly don't manage it well when she corners me like that. Then she texted me and asked again and I ignored it. Then she brought it up while at our home when we also had a friend and her kid visiting. And she broke down in tears making it so uncomfortable for everyone. And then she asked again like a week ago.

I responded that no, nothing has changed and any change would need to be initiated by us. In other words, stop asking. She lost her mind. Responded with a whole guilt trip about how she is depleted and grieving and asking whether other grandparents will get to have sleepovers with them, but not her, and how she is being held hostage by mine and my wife's childhood trauma, and on and on. Then the next day pleading to know if she would be "punished" for her "infraction." I replied to please stop using these legal terms, this is not a criminal case. She replied saying it's all orders and rules and she has no voice and she asked can we just go back to the status quo. I said well she needs to understand that her words and behaviors do have an impact.

Then another big long text from her, which I'm paraphrasing: "I'm at your mercy, all I want is normal grandma stuff, what's so bad about that, you never explained what I even did wrong, I said one thing you didn't like 3 years ago, I'm not perfect but I've always been there for you, why can't we have a heart to heart, poor me..."

We have chosen not to go to the reunion now. How can we. So the kids now will not get to see their family, nor will we. I'll have to make up a lie and let everyone know we can't make it. My mom will probably have a conniption. We are trying to throw together a quick alternative plan for a short trip so the kids still get to go away, swim, etc. And we still get to celebrate my wife on Sunday (we do Mama's Day). And not stay home feeling miserable.

But I still don't know what to do with all the feelings. Is this the point of no return? Is this where I go no contact?

By the way I am an only child. I have never had contact with my bio father. And my adoptive dad has passed away. We are close with his widow, she is a local and is wonderful grandma to our kids. We are also close with her daughter and family. I have some relationship with my adoptive dad's 1st wife and my step-siblings from their marriage (prior to my mom meeting him when I was a baby). My step-sibs are all quite a bit older than me and 2/3 of them have serious mental illness.

I feel broken and had to leave work today due to nonstop teeth chattering, hyperventilating, panic attack.

I don't know where to go from here. Help?

[Andeza]

As you are experiencing real, physical reactions at this moment in time, first and foremost is getting your equilibrium back. Making decisions while in full flight/flight/fawn/freeze response is too dang hard. You can try some deep breathing, guided meditations, some relaxation videos on YT, aromatherapy, etc, anything that has worked to restore your calm in the past would be good right about now. A massage, acupuncture, whatever you do. Right now getting you back to center is the goal. If you need to block her on every single email, phone number, text message, social media to find that calm place again, then do so. Even if it's just temporary so you can recover.

It may be helpful to name your feelings. To examine yourself and look at what you are feeling. It can be a bit like an onion of course. Feeling angry? Peel that one back only to find you're angry because you're hurt. Peel the hurt back to find that you're sad and grieving, etc.

Now may be a good time to speak to a professional as well, given how hard this is hitting you. You could begin with a call to your PCP and see what they recommend. That process can take a couple of days to get rolling. There are also many professionals online now that are much easier to reach out to if that's what you need as well.

Making decisions can come after. She can wait. All this poking and prodding from her and tear filled theatrics doesn't sit well. Feels too much like what my MIL pulled when we were preparing to move away. Tears and begging to reconsider and nonsense.

But right now we need to focus on you, and you being well, so that you can be there for your little family without this big dark cloud hanging over you.

[beepositive]

Thank you for your thoughtful response and insight. I took the rest of the day off work and rested a while until I got my body back to normal. Then I showered and now the electrician is here installing a new dishwasher (progress in a long saga), so that is actually nice as a distraction. I am out back sitting by the (kiddie) pool, listening to music and working on my calendar/planner. I will be picking up the kids from school in a couple hours. I'm in a good place. Thanks again for recognizing that as a priority.

Also, I am a therapist, and I have a therapist. Yay. The bad news is I just received news that my therapist has to cancel tomorrows appointment with me! What timing. But it's ok. She has helped me tremendously the past 3 yrs through this entire realization and process. And I'll talk to her when I can. I trust my own instincts much more than I used to.

I think the decision of not attending the reunion has been made. It's... impossible for us to go at this point. It's emotionally too much for both of us. I know it's going to further upset my mom. But that cannot be one of the reasons we take into consideration right now. Going would be very upsetting for us. And not going doesn't mean we'll never go again. So I'm trying to hang my hat on that.

I am angry. I am sad. I am tired. I am confused and resentful. I am a lot of things. I was looking the other day through old files for an article to send one of my own clients. And I came across a paper with a list of all the reasons I was angry at my mom, from 20 yrs ago. Same shit. Although I didn't see the narcissism then. Not for a thousand miles. I thought I had real bones to pick with her. I thought I was going to get to the bottom of it. I thought it would get better someday. It's pretty depressing to read actually.

And here I am. 46 years old now. Still fighting the same demons. But progress has been made. And I'm not fighting only for myself anymore. So there's that.

Is it ok to skip the reunion, go away on our own, take some time to rest and regroup, and not make any major decisions? I guess... I'm asking for ... permission?

[Andeza]

Totally okay to skip, do your own thang, and revisit when you're in a chill headspace. Things can be taken off the burner and set aside. You have the power to give yourself permission, but I'm giving mine too for what it's worth

I'm glad you've had some time to rest and return to a more normal place as well, and that you have help! That's very good. And please, don't be mad at yourself. Every journey is unique and takes the time it takes. No right or wrong here.

[KatKp29]

Hello,
So sorry you are going through this. While I am not an expert on these matters my family and I have had some recent experience dealing with a narcissist so the best I can give is my own personal advice from this time.
My husband and I have recently gone NC with my MIL and the amount of tranquility and peace of mind we have had has been astounding. We are now getting to the point of wondering what it will take to completely break off the relationship altogether(we are planning to have one big final family talk with her, but I digress) The fact that you are physically having symptoms of your anxiety from this is not good. It would probably be best for you and your wife to take some time and spend it with the people who make you feel good and happy! Don't let yourself be overcome with your mom's negative energy. Go on your trip and have fun!! Don't even think twice about the reunion! I'm sure there will be plenty of others. Your mental health comes first, as well as the well-being of your children. You have nothing to feel guilty about! You are doing what you feel is best for you kids and it sounds like your mom has done more than enough for both you and your wife to want to keep your distance from her.

I grew up with a father who was a straight-up sociopath. Just a person with a grandiose sense of himself who was very charming and was able to get away with everything. When I was a teen we stopped speaking for 5 years. I was having such horrible anxiety and depression from it all. In my later 20s I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder and am in therapy with my husband(as support) to help with this. I eventually resumed a relationship with my dad but it is extremely distant. He lives in another state and we mostly text and talk on the phone sometimes. I see him maybe 2-3 a year. My life flows much better now. I have anxiety but it's easier to manage because the main source of the anxiety is far away and mostly a non-factor. I'm not saying cut your mom off entirely but I would consider taking some time away from her completely. Go no contact for as long as you see fit. You have every right to and you owe your mom nothing despite what her guilt-tripping may tell you. Get your mind right and enjoy time with your family without having to worry about her. I promise you will feel better at some point. It isn't easy, but it doesn't sound like you are getting much from the relationship besides stress at this point.
I agree consulting with a therapist about this might also be something to consider. Either just sessions for yourself or family sessions with your wife included. You may discover thoughts/feelings you didn't even realize you had!

To give a little more background. Besides my own issues with my father my husband and I are dealing with his NPD mom right now and deciding our next course of action. My husband joined me in therapy to help me with the anxiety I had and in return HE realized the abuse he suffered in his own childhood and how his mother treated him and his brothers. He always knew their relationship with their mom was bad but he didn't fully understand why. He discovered things that he did/thought that were direct results of his mom's emotional abuse. It helped not only us but also his brothers to rise up and try to take back some of the power in a very one-sided relationship with her. Now, 2/4 kids are NC with her, and the other two would be also if they weren't still stuck living with her for the time being Therapy is certainly something I would consider for what you're experiencing.

I would take some time away from her. If not complete NC I would at least have very limited contact. Talk to your wife about therapy and get her thoughts/feelings. Enjoy the summer with your family!!! You deserve to be happy, you all do! They are your children and you are their protector. Never feel guilty about wanting to shield them..from any kind of abuse!
Just know that if you do go NC that it will be difficult. You will probably feel guilty at times. Being a narcissist she will probably also overstep the boundaries you set for her. But, doing so will give you some of the power back and it may give you a sense of strength that perhaps you haven't felt much in dealing with a narcissist. You are strong for recognizing her bad behavior and brave for calling it out. That is the first step and one of the hardest.

Good luck!!!

[Cat of the Canals]

Is it ok to skip the reunion, go away on our own, take some time to rest and regroup, and not make any major decisions? I guess... I'm asking for ... permission?

Not just "ok" but I would argue "the best course of action right now."

I think in moments like these we often feel like some sort of hardline decision must be put into effect when the reality is that it's perfectly find to let it simmer for a while. Part of this is a natural result of wanting it to feel "sorted out" but I also have a sneaking suspicion that some of it comes from our roots in a PD family. Many PDs speak (and think) in terms of "always" and "never," and I think we subconsciously start thinking we must do the same. Likewise, should you decide it's time for NC, even that doesn't have to be for "always."

It probably doesn't feel like it but it sounds to me like you have a pretty good handle on this. It may feel like you're on shaky ground, but that's because your mom is hellbent on stirring everything up when she doesn't get her way. The fact that you've been able to continue making healthy choices for your family under this kind of prolonged harassment is a sign that your boundaries are solid.

[Liketheducks]

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.   It sounds very familiar to me.   My mom keeps asking me when I'm going to "fix" our relationship.   Side note:   I'm VERY happy and peaceful with the VLC that we have going on right now.   She also wants a heart to heart.....but when the subject comes up it is all about me and my behavior and involves her telling me how she has no problem with me and has always supported me....while simulatneously giving me a guilt trip for whatever I'm not doing to make her life better right now.     The offers for heart to heart from her always include some kind of confrontation language (lock us in a room and duke it out, clear the air, air all our grievances with each other).      When we are in public she is always sunshine and rainbows.   One on one, she gets downright mean, trotting up decades old grievances.    I'm certain that this comes from a place of great pain for her.   But, I can't fix her for her.

  I know that I'm part of that equation of our difficult relationship, but I don't have to accept responsibility for all of her big feelings on this matter.    Anyone with 30 seconds and google search can come up with a thousand great methods for bridging a gap with your estranged adult child.   Sounds like your mom, and mine, just want us to do what we've always done as children and suck it up and stuff our own needs and feelings and safety for hers.      You're doing great taking care of yourself and your family.   Well done!

You don't owe an explanation.    If you're feeling panicky.....you need to take care of yourself first.   I think the alternative trip is a wonderful idea.    And, being out of the line of fire at a family gathering is so much better for you and the kiddos.    So, sorry, we'll be unable to make it.....is a complete sentence.   It is not your fault if she throws a conniption.      And, letting her throw her conniption at others is not your fault either.

Whether or not you ever choose to have your mother keep your children alone is no one's business but yours.  You're the parent.   You make the choices.   You're responsible for keeping those kiddos safe.     Kudos to you for doing that.    She can be unhappy with that, but clearly there are good reasons for your choice.     You don't owe her an explanation or justification for your boundaries.   

You're a therapist.    Boundaries are for us.   We can't make people adhere to our boundaries.   We can say, I'm not going to have my children alone with you because x.y.z.....or you can just do the boundary by not engaging in the family reunion.   You're doing it right.    Narcissist definitely hate boundaries, but I think part of the dynamic is grooming an adult/child to never have them and then getting upset when behavior prompts the adult child to smack themselves in the head acknowledging that they don't accept this dysfunction or manipulation from ANYONE else, so why this parent?!.     That grooming was what made me feel so anxious and awful with my parents.   Now, when I start to feel "icky", I know that my body is telling me something that I need to acknowledge to take care of myself and my family of choice.   
Being an only child doesn't mean that you have to subject yourself to bad behavior for the good of the family.    It took a very long time for me to grieve the loss of the relationship that I should have had with my parents....the one I wanted.    Grieving someone who is still walking the earth is a terrible pain to process.

My VLC didn't happen with a letter or ultimatum from me.    I just stopped engaging in the drama.    If being close to my mom means I get sucked back into it....then I keep my distance.   She absolutely hates it.   She has also denigrated me to everyone in the family over the years.    It did take some time, but I've been able to recover relationships with other family members on my own, without my mom or dad.    It seems that each other member eventually either gets it or doesn't.    Bottom line, I've given up on feeling badly because someone is telling someone else that I'm a terrible daughter for my actions without experiencing what prompted much needed boundaries.   

Many, many cyber hugs to you.    You're doing great!

[beepositive]

It probably doesn't feel like it but it sounds to me like you have a pretty good handle on this. It may feel like you're on shaky ground, but that's because your mom is hellbent on stirring everything up when she doesn't get her way. The fact that you've been able to continue making healthy choices for your family under this kind of prolonged harassment is a sign that your boundaries are solid.

Thank you. I have to stop and remember this more often. We are pretty solid with our boundaries. That's part of why she gets so wound up. I think she just can't get her head around me treating her like this. It is so drastically different that I was the first 40 years of my life.

[beepositive]

You have the power to give yourself permission, but I'm giving mine too for what it's worth

I'll take it! Thank you.

[beepositive]

The offers for heart to heart from her always include some kind of confrontation language (lock us in a room and duke it out, clear the air, air all our grievances ...

Sounds like your mom, and mine, just want us to do what we've always done as children and suck it up and stuff our own needs and feelings and safety for hers.

  You're the parent.   You make the choices.   You're responsible for keeping those kiddos safe.     Kudos to you for doing that. 

Same here! Her and I went to therapy together once and she cried the whole time and told the therapist she thinks we need to have a session that goes on long enough to figure everything out. Like hours, days. Omg I never went back.

Yes, she seems to be really comfortable expecting that I bend to her needs. And if I don't she is "living in a nightmare she can't wake up from." That's what she texted me yesterday. And she has no idea we're now not coming to the reunion. I can't even imagine what she will say or do then.

[beepositive]

My husband and I have recently gone NC with my MIL and the amount of tranquility and peace of mind we have had has been astounding.

Don't let yourself be overcome with your mom's negative energy. You have nothing to feel guilty about!

I appreciate this. Yesterday I felt this sense of lightness during the few hours I thought we might go NC. I felt relief just considering it. Stating my truth and walking away. I felt more at peace with the world. Being free from her mentally for just a few hours. It made me want to feel like that all the time.

But still, I am so scared for her to learn we aren't coming to the reunion. We canceled our room yesterday. I have to figure out how to tell her. I'm thinking a "reply all" email on the reunion thread, just letting everyone know we will be unable to make it. But the timing feels important. Rather than telling them this news now, I feel like I need to wait until fri afternoon, once my mom is already there. Any earlier, and she'll probably go nuts trying to get us to justify ourselves. She'll go on the offense, saying we are overreacting and hurting the kids. And my biggest fear is she says ok I'm not going either or just shows up at our house. I have to work thurs and fri. I can't be worrying about this and her reaction the whole time.

I'm also a little scared I might regret not going. And it's upsetting to think everyone will miss seeing the kids. They have grown so much and are SO different from last year. That seems like one of the main points of the reunion, is for the kids, and for people to stay connected to watching them grow up, to have a chance to know them a little, not just see photos. Especially with Covid, it seems important to take those moments when we can get them. 

I guess I'm still really torn.

[moglow]

Beepositive, just quick thought, will try and get back later - I'd prob do same, late quick group response when she's already there. "So sorry - looks like we're not going to be able to make it this year. Have a great visit, everyone!" Keep it light and brief, something came up, no worries. What she does she'd do anyway, ya know?


Yes timing kinda sucks but what I try to remember, actions do have consequences for all of us. You don't have to justify your decisions to anyone - you're adults and have a family of your own to consider. Do that first.

Oh, and when you send the message, turn off your phones [or at least mute mother's calls/msgs]. Grab the kids and get out for some family fun of your own.

[moglow]

Okay, I went back and read your earlier posts and it kind of sticks out to me - you've not cut off her contact with the children and she still spends time with all of you. She just wants what she wants because she wants it, and very possibly because it looks good and something to brag about to the other grands around her. It's still No. You have your own reasons for not kowtowing to her pushy demands and that remains. You're the parents here and you can do that!

YOU have history with her and your WIFE has history with her. That history, her treatment of you both landed you where you are with her today. You've laid it out how things will be until they're not, and that's what she has. Her continuing to push doesn't make you give in, it probably makes you dig in and a lot of us would do the same. They're your children and it's your JOB to protect and look after them. You'd think they'd grasp that if they don't have a great relationship with their children, there's a reason and those children may have the same hesitations for their own down the line somewhere. Why would she think otherwise, honestly.

I'll tell you this - when my brother's younger child/daughter was born, he and I had a Come to Jesus meeting, where he told me flat out his daughter was never to be left alone with mommie dearest. Given how she treated me growing up [she's vicious and volatile and abusive and flat out nasty when she chooses] there's no reason to think she'd be any different with her grandchild, so no. I respected that of him and still do - as it turns out md wasn't all that interested in any of her own, much less her grandchildren. But that rule stuck - my responsibility was and remains to my niece, not my mother. She could want what she wanted, same answer. I had to protect the child from what I knew mother was capable, whether or not she ever followed through. She'd have to prove herself to me first, and she failed. BUT I also knew she's a master at playing nice-nasty, look good on the surface and lampoon me when others aren't there to witness. I wasn't going to subject my niece to that.

So - what are you scared of? Think that through and plan accordingly where you can. She shows up? You don't have to answer or open the door. She leaves notes, messages, letters etc? Okay. She's relentless and will.not.back.off? Tell her, ask her nicely to back off and give you some time. She refuses? You CAN block her calls/messages. It may not be pretty but the answer is still NO. Her showing her ass just reaffirms what you know her to be, and is no reflection on you whatsoever. What she says is ALL on her.

Y'all get to choose what's best for you and your family, not your mother. Hang in there and do what you need to do!

[beepositive]

So - what are you scared of? Think that through and plan accordingly where you can. She shows up? You don't have to answer or open the door. She leaves notes, messages, letters etc? Okay. She's relentless and will.not.back.off? Tell her, ask her nicely to back off and give you some time. She refuses? You CAN block her calls/messages. It may not be pretty but the answer is still NO. Her showing her ass just reaffirms what you know her to be, and is no reflection on you whatsoever. What she says is ALL on her.

It's helpful to think through the scenarios. I'm still scared, but at least I have a bit of a plan.

There has also been a big development since my initial post. Yesterday my uncle sent an email to the group that he has Covid and cannot come to the reunion. He is the main organizer of the whole thing and the sort of family patriarch. So he and his wife won't be there. Meanwhile he's had contact with several other people who will be coming. They have all tested negative. My mom was the first to reply all to his message and was super dramatic... No words can express her sadness. So anyway we're thinking of using a Covid excuse. Possibly saying we don't want to risk being around people who've recently been exposed. Or possibly taking it a step further and saying there was a case in the kids' class. We've already planned a different trip and booked two nights. We leave when we pick the kids up from school today. We've told them about it and we've canceled our reservation at the reunion. So this is happening.

I've drafted a long response to my moms last text. Probably too long. But I feel the need to set her straight about a few things. She just loves to act so clueless. I'm going to post her last message and then my draft below.

Mom's last text:
"I'm not sure what words and behaviors. I asked a question last week because I didn't recall about "only you can initiate?" Your answer felt so rigid but I'm at your mercy! What do you think I want? My wants and needs are just normal grandma stuff you make it sound so desperate and abnormal. Why is it hurtful to you that I want to babysit and get to know my grandkids that way? It's been almost 4 yrs like this for things you have barely explained. Something I said 3 yrs ago?  After a lifetime as your mom you've done an about face on me while I stand here open arms, the same imperfect but loving mother who has always been there through thick and thin

All I can think is that it's really much more complicated. Anything I do or say or my very presence can trigger  things that happened way back to Jenn and that you have to stand together and mutually keep me away.

Please just tell me if there's any truth in that. Otherwise I am left holding this heavy bag alone without even a heart to heart chance to make real amends."

My drafted response:
"I'm not saying it's abnormal to want to hang out with your grandkids or babysit. It isn't hurtful that you want to have them over to play, etc. But it is abnormal to continually push for that when we, the parents, have said no. The fact that only we can initiate a change was a given. We never thought we needed to say so. If our feelings changed, you'd be the first to know. You don't say hey, can you remove your boundary, I don't like it. There is nothing that will do but make the boundary stronger. How can you think that your repeated requests (aka disrespect of our boundaries) will have no impact?

Your insistence on knowing and understanding why we've made this choice is part of the problem. We tried to explain. You wouldn't hear it. And then you keep making things worse by doing stuff like this. Why can't you just accept it's what we want? Why is it so important to you to have the kids to yourself? They're not your kids!

This is how we want it. It's not your place to give your opinion of whether you get it or don't or you think we are crazy. We don't care. Your input is not wanted here. Not because we don't care about you. But because our stability as a family is the most important thing. I would think you'd agree. But again, you don't have to. I can't believe I have to keep explaining this.

We are not perpetrating any violence against you. We're not preventing you from seeing us or the kids or you knowing them or them knowing you. Clearly you had certain expectations of being a grandma and all of us living in Albany and they haven't been met. I get that that's disappointing. But why insist on them to the point of sabotage. There is not one other person in our lives who insists on anything with the kids. No one. We have people who invite, propose, suggest, offer, ask, and give. And then they accept whatever we say. But not you. You make your requests or give your gifts, and then they become demands, and then comes the guilt trip and manipulation, if we don't respond the way you'd like. No one else seems to think they are owed time with Eko and Indra. Especially not time without their parents around. The more you insist, the more crazy it seems. Why would you continue pushing? At this point the pushing has become [at least part of] the problem.

Even if we were the world's stupidest people, why would you want to force us into doing what you want? Unless you thought we were harming the children. Like seriously abusing or neglecting them. We are not. We are making a choice that parents are allowed to make and in fact do make every day. If you really want to investigate why, I would recommend reading books, talking to other parents and grandparents, doing serious therapeutic work, and really trying to understand why you are so set against respecting your own child's boundaries, whom you say you love so much. It makes no sense.

You feel like I've done an about face. There may be some truth to that. You portray yourself as the innocent victim, the loving mother with open arms. You admit you're imperfect like it's an aside. We're all imperfect, yes. But we don't get to dictate what amends looks like to the people we've hurt. Clearly I've attempted to get amends from you before. At this point, "amends" for me is respect of our boundaries. The about face is that I had kids. Everything changed.

All you have to do is act like a halfway normal person when you're around us. But you don't. You act angry, resentful, judgmental, and disappointed. I've seen you treat other people cruelly too many times. And we've felt the sting of that ourselves. It doesn't matter if it was yesterday, last summer, 3 years ago or 10 years ago. When a person shows they are capable of that behavior, you have a choice. Our choice is no, we're not going to run the risk of subjecting the kids to whatever that looks like when we're not around.

It's not happening. End of story. Stop. Asking."

[moglow]

Bee, write it out and keep on writing for your own peace of mind but I'd suggest you keep your actual response to her brief. Don't give her too much detail to nit pick and get bogged down in, for her to offer more promises and explanations and excuses. Don't continue the discussion, is what I'm saying. Anything you give her provides arguing points. That's just making it worse for you. You've made a decision for your family - now you have to LIVE your boundaries and stop her.

I really like how you stated this:

"Your insistence on knowing and understanding why we've made this choice is part of the problem. We tried to explain. You wouldn't hear it.

We don't get to dictate what amends looks like to the people we've hurt. Clearly I've attempted to get amends from you before. At this point, "amends" for me is respect of our boundaries. The about face is that I had kids. Everything changed.

All you have to do is act like a halfway normal person when you're around us. But you don't. You act angry, resentful, judgmental, and disappointed. I've seen you treat other people cruelly too many times. And we've felt the sting of that ourselves. It doesn't matter if it was yesterday, last summer, 3 years ago or 10 years ago. When a person shows they are capable of that behavior, you have a choice. Our choice is no, we're not going to run the risk of subjecting the kids to whatever that looks like when we're not around." And end it with another gently stated, We don't want or need more explanations or promises. The answer is and will remain No.

Then stop responding to her requests or questions on the subject. Dont continue that discussion even to tell her no, it has to become invisible for you. Talk to her about any/everything else BUT that, if you decide to stay in contact with her. Change the subject, leave the room, pack up the kids to go home, whatever it takes - including limiting her visits even more if you choose. Show her that you mean it. She *doesn't* have to respect your boundaries - you do.

[beepositive]

Bee, write it out and keep on writing for your own peace of mind but I'd suggest you keep your actual response to her brief.

She *doesn't* have to respect your boundaries - you do.

Totally agree, thank you. I know it's way too long, but I thought it might be ok because I felt like I wasn't debating or defending. But I totally am! I like your edits and I will play around with it.

Aside from that, and I know this is kind of a personal preference kind of thing, but what do you think about the reunion? In terms of lying. Or what order to do all this in. There is already a thread going this morning with lots of people checking in to say they are negative for Covid and see you later today. Do you think I should send our regrets first, then the message to my mom? I suppose I could also just not respond to her until after the weekend. That might be the way to go.

[moglow]

Do you owe her [or anyone] an explanation? No. Honestly, I'd respond to the group later, after you've left home yourselves. Don't lie or invent excuses, just simple and sweet sorry but y'all won't be able to make it after all, look forward to another visit later! And message her end of the weekend.


I think you're going to have to take point here and lock that conversation down, just refuse to go into it further. Always remember, you can block her messages when/if needed. It's not an easy decision but how long has this been going on already?? Yeah that. You don't have to keep doing it, no matter her insistence.

[beepositive]

I do feel like I owe the family an explanation as to why we won't be attending. This has been on the books for a year and everyone thinks we are coming. It would be super weird to just not show up and send a last minute message like it's no biggie. I mean, I can entertain the possibility that it just seems weird because if our family culture of obligation. But it does seem like the sensible and considerate thing to do. And it feels impossible to squeeze out of this without a little bit of lying. Or at least truth avoidance. Like for instance my wife won't post any pictures from our weekend trip on social media (which is odd for us). And I deactivated mine just cause I needed one less thing.

But I get it. I don't have to tell anyone anything. I can say we are so sorry we aren't going to make it. Have a wonderful time, we'll miss seeing everyone. And give no reason. I just know how I feel when I read messages like that. It's like, huh? Ok.

[moglow]

Ah, that makes sense. So you're kinda backed into a corner here. Maybe "we've not tested positive or otherwise but all things considered we're not going to be able to make it this year either. We just dont need to take the risk with covid ..." Not a lie but not the whole truth that no one else needs to be dragged off into either. Honestly, I wouldn't doubt were you to go, your mother would have brought it all up in front of the whole fam, trying to get reinforcements and driving the guilt train further.

From your first post above:

Then she brought it up while at our home when we also had a friend and her kid visiting. And she broke down in tears making it so uncomfortable for everyone. And then she asked again like a week ago.

Really? Really. It steams me that your mother dragged someone else into her stuff, thinking to put you on the spot. Not cool, not cool at all. And ferpetessake, you obviously haven/t/hadn't cut her off, she was right there with you!! It's damned difficult when someone completely refuses to accept their part in the fracas but keeps on pushing it no matter your response. That tells me she doesn't want to make amends or understand, she just wants her way. That's fine, now she has to find acceptance that she's pushed too far for too long.

I guess what it comes down to is, speak your own conscience and listen to the small still voices inside. Think about that peace you felt, thinking this may be no contact ... how soft and quiet that felt. [That won't be "easy" all the time either, but even if it's NC "for a while" you may become more firm in what you need -or not- where that relationship is concerned.] Decide with your wife how to move forward then do that. You don't need permission nor do you need to apologize for seeing this differently from your mother.

[moglow]

Just a thought - your family may be more aware of what's going on than you think. I've found over the years that my cousins who used to just adore mommie dearest when we were kids have now heard a little too much. They've witnessed her treatment of me and others, her snide and demeaning comments behind people's backs, the gossip from one person to the next. We don't talk about it exactly but they've let me know they get it and wonder why it took us so long to see it. Md had one sister who was notorious for packing up and leaving a family gathering in the middle of the night without a word to anyone. I understand that now - she just had enough and needed peace. She lived her boundaries and I had to learn to do the same.