High Functioning Autism or Personality Disorder?

[justme2903]

Hi Friends - I am struggling in my relationship with my older brother and could use some feedback. My brother is someone who comes across as Aspergers/High Functioning Autistic. He was never diagnosed, but several family members and close friends have suspected this of him over the years. Also, he got married a few years ago. His wife started seeing a psychologist who diagnosed my brother with autism "from afar". The psychologist basically said "Yes, it sounds like your husband is autistic". She went home and tried to explain to my brother what the psychologist observed. He flat out refused to accept that anything could be wrong with him. Complete and total refusal.

Now.....I have a problem with being codependent. If I perceive someone has a problem, my empathy goes into overdrive. That person can then be abusive to me, and I make excuses for that person because I think "Well, this happened to them in childhood", or "They have this problem.... it's not their fault". Having said all that..... my brother has behaved in ways towards me over the decades that I now see as highly abusive. But I always turned the other cheek and moved on thinking that "Well, he seems to probably have autism..... so it's not his fault". Having said all that.... I would like to describe some of his horrible treatment towards me, and maybe yall can help me sort out my thoughts. Is this autism? Or is he just an abusive jerk? If I go very very very low contact with him, would I be guilty of misjudging an autistic person who just needs my empathy and forgiveness? OK, here goes........

When I was around 27, and brother was around 29..... we were both at my dads house. While I was there, I began to feel really sick. Sore throat, fever etc.... I called my doctor to make an appointment. At some point, my brother came to the realization that I was sick, and I was in the same house with him. He realized I could get him sick. (NOTE - this was in 2001, long before covid!). Once he figured this out, he yelled at me "You're sick? Get the fuck out of here, you fucking bitch!!! You're going to get me sick!!!"

A driving incident...... Is was around 2002-2003 and we were traveling. He was driving. He had the heat in his car on full blast, and I was beginning to feel overheated. I asked if he would please turn the heat down. He said "NO, I'm not turning the heat off for YOU". I said, okay.... I will just crack my window so I can get a little bit of air on my side. He became angry and used the automatic controls on his side of the car to roll my window back up. Then he locked it so I could not crack the window again. I was forced to sit like that for another 30 minutes till we arrived at our destination.

In the mid to late 1990's, I was in an abusive marriage. I had to leave this husband to live in a battered women's shelter for a month. Even after that, I still tried to work it out with this man. But the final straw came when I went through his things and discovered a stash of violent sadistic pornography that featured women being choked and raped. We divorced soon after that discovery. That was many years ago, but to this day I still fear this man I was married to briefly..... even if we've been divorced and in no contact for 25 years. It's just something I feel. I'm not sure my desire to hide from this man will ever go away.... even if he forgot about me years ago. Well.....in 2008 my brother started a project where he scanned all of our families photos. That's a good thing to do, and we all appreciated it. That way, you have digital copies of all those memories, and everyone can have copies. Little did I know, for all these years...... he had kept photos of me and my abusive ex husband (I had destroyed any photos I ever had of ex-husband....but brother did not). My brother kept photos of me and my ex-husband when we were dating, photos of our wedding etc..... When my brother started scanning and distributing digital copies to the family, I noticed all these photos of my ex husband had been scanned. I felt very unsettled, and I asked him to destroy those photos. I never had children with my ex husband, so there's no higher reason to maintain these photos of him. It's a dark time in my life..... not something I wanted scanned and given out to all our family members. Well he was DEEPLY angered that I didn't want these photos scanned and distributed. He got my dad involved, and the two of them together accused me of exaggerating the past abuse (from ex husband) and accused me of having a mental problem. It's hard to even put into words how hostile they were to me regarding these photos. They accused me of being abusive to them, and threatened to not see me for the holidays. I would like to add that when I went through that abuse 25 years go, brother showed not one ounce of concern at that time. He didn't care one bit about what happened to me back then. Honestly, I get the impression he thinks I made it all up.

As bad as that was..... my brother then proceeded to upload every single family photo he scanned to Flickr, and set them all to public view. THEN.....he tagged everyones names in these photos. He tagged my name, and my ex husbands name, in the photos he scanned of us. I have a very unique first and last name, and my first name also has a very unique spelling (not my choice, parents chose this). If you google my name, anything that comes up in the search results is always about me, and no other person. And that's how I found out my brother had done this. One day I googled my name, and there it was....on the first page of search results..... a link to flickr showing photos of me and my ex husband posing together. I can't even begin to express to you how violated I felt.

I contacted my brother and asked him to remove the photos. Surprisingly, he did. But then I found other photos he had posted of me to flickr. Embarrasing photos from childhood where I looked overweight, poorly dressed, etc... and so on. I asked him to remove those photos, and he lashed out at me in anger. He said "No one cares about you. You think people want to google your name and look at you? No one thinks about you. The only person looking at those photos is YOU".

From then on, a "meme" started in my family that I was paranoid. It seems to have spread to everyone, and I am now seen as a paranoid person who thinks others are obsessed with looking at me online. And my brothers behavior of posting unwanted photos of me online has continued on and off. I did have more success by having my husband to get involved, and having him ask brother to please stop posting embarrassing childhood/teen photos of me. There was more success in that he did take them down when husband asked. But I still paid for it because brother slanders me to other family members, spreading this idea that I'm paranoid and that I think others are obsessed with looking at my photos. He tries to make me look like a paranoid narcissist. Nowhere, in any of this, was my desire to just maintain a private life online respected. It's so hard to just "blend in" online when you have such a unique name and spelling. I don't want someone from my past to find me so easily, nor do I want them to find me and stumble across a bunch of unflattering photos of me from my past. Brother has not one shred of empathy regarding this, no matter how much I try to explain. I feel like he is bullying me.

A few other things that come to mind..... as teenagers, he was once driving me somewhere. He would speed and drive erratically just to upset me. For example, he would take his hands off the wheel and drive by pushing his knee into the steering wheel and using only his knee to steer the car. He would do this while speeding down a major freeway. If I said "Could you please stop", he would just laugh/rage/escalate.

What I have listed above is just a small sample of his treatment towards me. I would also like to add that he is very rude to my daughter. I have a daughter and a son, and he only treats my daughter in a negative manner. He started doing this to her when she was a toddler.... calling her a bratt, a drama queen and so on. He says "She's just like you" and writes us both off with negative labels.

So now I have this internal struggle. Everything inside of me says "Enough....it's time to stop interacting with him. He will hurt you again. It will just keep happening". But then I get stuck because of this idea floating around that he has high functioning autism, and he just can't help it. I also saw him get victimized as a kid. My dad has always been really harsh towards him. And he would get picked on at school quite a bit, for being so odd. There were many people who saw him as odd. More often than not, I would feel sorry for him and defend him.

I'm so tired of being hurt by him. I know there is nothing I could say to him to get him to stop. He is now married and has kids that are early elementary school age. I can just tell that he has slandered me to his wife. She has an attitude towards me that is not based on her own interactions with me. I can tell her opinion of me is HIS opinion of me. As much as I love his kids... I worry it's just a matter of time before he teaches them to look down on me too. Also..... and this is the one that hurts the most.......he tells everyone that I abuse him. He tells people that throughout our lives, I have always deviously plotted to make him look bad, and that he is my victim. And they BELIEVE him. I will admit to being a bratt/jerk in childhood. I have no doubt that I was a difficult younger sister during childhood and didn't always play fair. But once we got into late teen years and  adulthood, I stopped with all that nonsense. He didn't.

So how do you mentally navigate whether or not to protect yourself from a supposedly autistic man, who supposedly just can't help it? Everything inside of me says "Stay away from him". Anytime I have to interact with him, I always walk away feeling so unsettled and depressed. My entire nervous system says "go as low contact as possible". But then it's like I'm judging this poor autistic person. Any thoughts?

[pianissimo]

As far as I know, these conditions can co-exist.

Autism is a neurological condition. At some point, I wondered if I was on the spectrum, so I checked some YouTube videos about it to figure out how it presents itself. I decided I probably don't have it because I didn't have a couple of common symptoms: sensitivity to noise or lights in the environment, to the point it can drive you to a meltdown. Meltdown appears to be a common symptom in people with autism. They recommend leaving the person alone for them to recover. The other thing is, ones I watched on YouTube show a deep awareness of how neurotypicals have a different mindset, they appear to make great effort to fit in. Apparently, stimming is another common characteristics, this is almost like a biological need to self-soothe.

There is a woman comedian, Hannah Gadsby, who mentions in her stand up show how she found out she was on the autistic spectrum. She mentions loud noises more disturbing than average person, and supermarkets as overstimulating places. This is another symptom of autism. Places such as supermarkets are bad for them, because they are wired to perceive every noise and stimulant at the same strength. So it's kind of a loud and shiny world for them. The other sensory thing about them is the texture of things, which can make them picky eaters.

So, none of these symptoms have anything to do with personality disorders. These are neurological symptoms. I'm personally subscribed to a couple of Youtube channels by people with autism, and I find their content delightful. They come across quite empathetic to me.

But, just like neurotypical people, neurodivergent people have their own set of characteristics, traumas, lives, so, it's likely some of them have personality disorders. I watched a speech about autism on YouTube, and the person referred to NPD as a personality disorder that can be present in people with autism.

The question is, do people with autism abuse others because they don't know any better? I would say no. If you tell them something hurts you, they understand that. As I understand, the severity of the autism spectrum disorders affects the degree of their interaction with the world. The term "high functioning" is used for those who are on the mild end of the spectrum, and some of them don't know they have the disorder. They have the capacity to understand what being abusive is, that they can hurt people, that people have emotions. In the media, autism is depicted by someone who says rude things without noticing its effect on people. The ones I follow show high awareness of how people react to what they say, they just don't understand what exactly wrong in what they are saying. They also have a deep desire to fit in, make friends.

On YouTube, a person with autism explains how she was diagnosed in her adulthood, by being shown pictures. Apparently, she was told to tell what was happening in the pictures. She says, she thought she did great in the test because she came up with good stories. But, later, she finds out her responses matched the criteria for autistic spectrum, because her stories didn't match the cues given in the pictures. For example, she couldn't tell two boys with a ball in front a broken glass was about those boys breaking the glass.

Given what I know, I would say your older brother isn't abusive because he has autism. Autism doesn't make people abusive.

One thing in your post that makes me wonder if your brother has autism is the driving incident. A couple of people with autism I follow on YouTube have videos about difficulty in driving with autism. They say people with autism have difficulty with spatial awareness (something about measuring distance and locating yourself in relation to objects in a consistent manner) which makes them clumsy. The other is, traffic is also a highly stimulant environment for them. As I understand, people on the milder end of the spectrum do drive, but with caution because of these factors. I suppose there are other symptoms of autism that make driving stressful. I got curious and just googled it, here is some information:
https://www.healthline.com/health/autism/can-autistic-people-drive#is-it-legal

All this said, I don't know if your older brother has these symptoms of autism. It might make sense to read about autism and check whether they fit your brother. But, then, autism doesn't make people abusive. It's about neurology. But, I hear people with autism can be abusive depending on their personality. As I understand, autism doesn't give someone a personality, people have autism, and a personality, which can be disordered. This is all I can say as a layperson.

[notrightinthehead]

It sounds like he is a difficult person and not treating you kindly and with respect.  No matter what he suffers with, even very sick people can be kind and loving. Which he is not.
Your job is to protect yourself and your kids. Why would you expose your daughter to this kind of behaviour? You seem to have your answer right here: "Everything inside of me says "Stay away from him". Anytime I have to interact with him, I always walk away feeling so unsettled and depressed. My entire nervous system says "go as low contact as possible". "
You might have been trained in your family of origin to put up and tolerate unacceptable behaviour, but it is not too late to unlearn that. Maybe even your choice of first husband was a result of your upbringing. Maybe you learned to ignore red flags or explain them away, like with a diagnosis.  Ultimately what counts is how this person treats you. And your brother does not seem to treat you well. So you should take good care of yourself and your kids and spend time with people who do treat you well and respect you.

[guitarman]

Welcome. You are not alone.

I have an undiagnosed BPD/NPD sister. She is not living with autism. I have no personal experience of people living with autism. However, I can identify with much of what you posted about.

I now call her my abuser and I am her target of abuse. I have had no contact with her for over two years and never want to see her ever again. I care about her but I can't cope with her unpredictable behaviour.

She is high functioning and when she's in a crisis she rages and threatens to harm herself. This has affected my own mental and physical health. She has alienated everyone in our family.

I always used to forgive her abusive behaviour because I thought that she had serious mental health issues and couldn't control herself. Now I think differently.

Now I have put in firm boundaries. I will not tolerate being abused by her. She is not my responsibility. Her mental health is not my responsibility. She needs professional mental health support but will not access it because she doesn't think that she needs to.

I have recently learnt a new phrase that applies to my situation "dysfunctional responsibility". Feeling responsible for my sister has caused me to become dysfunctional because of all the stress involved.

I think that you raise an important issue. What is a mental health issue and what is abuse? It's a dilemma that I've had to cope with for decades. That is why I am on this forum. I've been coping with fear, obligation and guilt all my life it seems.

I seek help from mental health carers support groups to help me cope. In the groups I find that I am not alone. For a long time I was isolated and not getting any support. I didn't even know that my sister's behaviour was abuse. It was just something in the family that we kept secret and accepted.

Decades later I am living with depression and probably CPTSD. I feel so guilty about going no contact with her but I have to in order to keep sane and safe. I can't cope with yet another crisis that is of her own making.

I've learnt that it's OK to look after yourself. It's OK to put your own needs and safety first. Abuse is never acceptable and should not be tolerated.

Regarding the photos of you. There is a "Right to be forgotten" regulation that lets you take down information about yourself online. I don't know much about it but maybe it's something you could investigate. It may not apply to where you live but you could contact the website and say that you haven't given your permission for your images of yourself to be shown. Maybe you could get some legal advice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten

It seems particularly callous and vindictive of your brother to ignore your wishes. He takes great delight in upsetting you and pushing all your buttons. You are feeding his narcissistic supply by your reaction. The more you react the more he will do it. It's a twisted and cruel mind game.

Abusers are all about power and control.

You are describing the narcissistic cycle of abuse where the abuser turns everything around to become the victim. They can do this by provoking you into anger then saying that you have abused them.

How we counter that is by staying calm, becoming indifferent and ignoring them. It's a difficult behaviour to use as you really want to defend yourself loudly.

He has started smear campaigns against you. He may make false allegations about you as well. It's all part of the same pattern of behaviour.

All his behaviours have names. It's quite empowering to know that you are not alone and that others have experienced similar behaviour against themselves.

The more we learn about PDs the more we can cope. We need to keep educating ourselves.

You may like to follow the author and counsellor Kris Godinez online. She specialises in Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome and shows how targets of abuse can cope better.

Her YouTube channel is called "We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez".

I know you haven't mentioned NPD but you may find her techniques of coping with abusive behaviour useful.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

[Starboard Song]

So how do you mentally navigate whether or not to protect yourself from a supposedly autistic man, who supposedly just can't help it? Everything inside of me says "Stay away from him". Anytime I have to interact with him, I always walk away feeling so unsettled and depressed. My entire nervous system says "go as low contact as possible". But then it's like I'm judging this poor autistic person. Any thoughts?

I don't believe those with personality disorders can help it either. And I don't believe it matters whether they can help it.

You are walking down the sidewalk with a dear friend. Coming towards you there is a white van, crashing through traffic cones and careening towards you on the sidewalk at alarming speed. Maybe it is a terorrist, bent on killing you, your friend, and others near you. Maybe it is an elderly man having a medical emergency, unconscious behind the wheel. Does it matter? What matters is that you will reliably be hurt if you do not take decisive action to protect yourself. It is like this, I believe, with all those who are clearly careening our way, and who will predictably hurt us if we don't take decisive action to protect ourselves.

On an airplane, they tell us to put on our own oxygen mask first before helping others. This is not selfish: it is an act of love. Because those who depend on you need you to thrive so you will be there for them. It is your job to care for yourself. Many people care for you, or depend on you, or appreciate you. It is your job to thrive for all of them. Establishing boundaries or limiting your contact with toxic people is an act of love, applying your oxygen mask first so that you'll be there for them.

Consider letting this diagnosis go, and focus on these things you know for sure.

[Hazy111]

I think this has been discussed before on another thread.

I have a neighbour whom i would say is PD (schizoid) . He lives alone never had a relationship as far as i know. I think there is also an (aspergers/autistic angle) to his personality as well.

I once heard someone on the radio discuss they had been recently diagnosed as having "aspergers syndrome" and the familiarities regarding food struck a chord. He also sees food as "fuel" only and eats the same things rarely deviating. There are some other traits that seem bizarre. Like if there is a "threat" of rain he puts on thick waterproofs . I think he also suffers from OCD with safety being a big issue. Conversations can become very "left field " and like the example given he zeros in on the wrong thing.

I sometimes used to think my father was on the "spectrum. "

So the conditions, as mentioned before can overlap and coexist.

[justme2903]

Thank you so much to everyone who replied. I'm new to this site, and I already feel like I have received so much insight and support.

[sandpiper]

My T had a saying 'Don't diagnose, just deal with the behaviour.'
Regardless of mental health issues, people still have a choice as to how they treat you and it sounds like your brother has very little concern for your boundaries and your feelings.
I'd work around that and have a think about how much contact you are comfortable having with him.
FWIW I think you are spot on about his children.
Parents often teach their children to treat other people with the same level of either love or ill-treatment that they offer. Children aren't in a situation where they can defy their parents and will often assume the same attitudes in order to gain acceptance. My sister's children could be just foul in the way they reflected their parents' behaviour and while I didn't blame them, I didn't see any good reason to expose myself to that kind of abuse from them. If we'd had children I would have gone with VLC or NC because the behaviour really was that bad and there is simply no reason for your children to have to tolerate relatives who are abusive, regardless of the reason for that.

[xredshoesx]

i agree sandpiper

it's not so much if/ what the diagnosis is, it's in how we choose to let that person or people influence us.  i'll never know if my mother is really a PD or not for sure.  what i do know is i will not allow her mistreatment of me.  since i went NC at a very young age (20s), my challenge has been getting her VOICE out of my head-  which this group has had a big part in helping me to learn how to get through those times where it's a presence that disrupts my life.

[intothewest26]

So, person with autistic traits here. I think it's very possible I have autism, although I've never been diagnosed (the diagnosis process for that in adulthood is long and expensive.) I am also a female and from what I understand females tend to be better at masking. I don't have any siblings. However, if I had a sibling I would not treat them the way your brother has treated you.

It is also possible that your brother has autism along with a personality disorder such as narcissism. You say he tries to make you out to be a paranoid narcissist. That to me indicates he may be the narcissistic one, narcissistic people often do that.

I would say abusive behavior is abusive behavior. I would also agree with others that focusing on the behavior is more important than focusing on a the diagnosis. The behavior is not okay.