Understanding Narcs

[KatKp29]

Hi everyone,
I was just doing some thinking about our issues with hubby's NMom and just had a few thoughts/questions on NPD in general.

1. Does narcissism stem from insecurity or a sense of grandiosity? My NMIL always strikes me as the kind of woman who is deeply deeply insecure with herself as a person but especially as a mom. She needs constant validation and affirmation from her kids on just about everything. The dinners she cooks, the presents she buys. She is always reminding her kids how much she does for them and how much she loves them(more than any other mother ever!). And if you don't give her adequate praise, she cries or mopes around the house acting miserable. That to me sounds like someone who is not comfortable in herself as a mother. My husband though swears that she has this superiority complex and doesn't think she's insecure at all. For example, she looks down on people who work more blue collar jobs and don't live in nice houses etc. So I kind of see both sides. Maybe she's a bit of both? Every Narc might be different as well. What is your experience with the NPD person in your life?

2. Are they capable of truly feeling love? It seems so strange to me to believe for all her many faults that my MIL doesn't love her kids but at the same time I think of how every "nice" thing she does for them comes with a pricetag. Are you truly being kind if you expect constant praise and fawning. Also, her relationship with her husband seems truly hopeless and she just seems to keep him around to make money for her and do work around the house(which she still complains about). My hubby and I argue about this aspect the most. Whenever she does "nice" things I am always cautious because I know something is expected. He thinks she is capable of kindness and love. I think she loves her kids..but her definition of love is completely warped.

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts who have insight on these things. I realize not every person is the same but I feel like a general sameness tends to happen with PDs to some extent.

Thanks!!

[Sneezy]

You will get a variety of answers to these questions, but here are mine:

1. I think narcissism starts with insecurity and/or anxiety early in a person's life.  The insecurity grows until it manifests itself in a variety of ways, including grandiosity.  Reading what you have written about your MIL, I wonder if she has HPD or covert NPD?  People with histrionic personality disorder, especially older women, sometimes have a need to be recognized as the best mother ever.  This is sometimes referred to as "maternal seductiveness," and it is something I noticed early on in my MIL.  For what it's worth, my MIL was severely neglected as a child, and I don't think she has ever felt secure or has ever fully trusted anyone in her life.  Even now, when she is in her eighties and in memory care, we are discovering that she had several separate bank accounts (with no one, not even her husband as a joint owner) where she squirreled away money "just in case."  She was always waiting and preparing to be abandoned.

My mom, on the other hand, definitely checks all the boxes for covert NPD, which is a form of narcissism that I describe as a black hole of despair.  Everyone is mean to her, no one appreciates her, she is the world's most put-upon martyr, etc.   She also suffers from severe anxiety, which could be the root of her covert NPD.  She can become paralyzed with fear if she thinks she might be making the "wrong" decision or if she thinks people aren't looking at her in a positive light.

2. Are they capable of feeling love? I wish I knew the answer this question.  My experience is that both my MIL and my mom see the world differently than I do.  And so what I consider love versus what they consider love are very different.  I believe they are capable of feeling love, but I realize this could be wishful thinking on my part.  Their love is certainly tied up with a lot of other things, and sometimes feels transactional.  Meaning, as you have noted, there is always a price tag attached.

I'm looking forward to seeing how others answers these two questions. 

[KatKp29]

Hi Sneezy!
Thanks for your answers!

My MIL definitely has covert NPD! When I told my own family what she was like they were absolutely shocked. She seems very sweet on the surface but once you know what she's like you can spot the fakeness a mile away! She is the world's biggest martyr. Absolutely nobody works harder than she does! Absolutely nobody goes to more trouble to do nice things for her family than she does!
She didn't work for 29 years and just this year finally got a part time job. When she was just a stay at home mom, she would constantly complain "oh I had to do laundry alllll day, and I had to go grocery shopping" . Her kids would constantly make fun of her. Their dad was out busting his butt at work and doing all of the chores she assigned him and she's complaining about laundry??
Also, she does the sad/pathetic thing when she doesn't get her way. Just like a child! Her kids say when she's giving them the silent treatment at home she would walk into the room and let out an audible sigh and make these sad faces and look at them and try to get them to apologize to her. They'd just laugh. She is truly something.

To be fair, her mother is a bit of a neurotic/anxious woman so maybe that anxiety her mother had instilled into her caused her to become this way, but she had a relatively normal and happy childhood from everything we know. She has a wonderful family that she just shows absolutely no appreciation or respect for.

[Cat of the Canals]

I think all narcissists are completely insecure at their core. More overt narcissists cover this insecurity by being grandiose, like Sneezy described. I think this type is terrified that everyone will find out how worthless they really are (not saying they actually ARE, but it's what they believe) so they put on a big show of being the best, the smartest, the richest, the most powerful, etc. I think they play power/control games because they feel inferior, and the only way they know how to get rid of that feeling is to make themselves feel superior to someone else.

Covert narcissists use their insecurity as a weapon. They project it outward to garner sympathy and to attract codependent types who will take care of them. The coverts I know are sneakier and more passive aggressive about the power/control games. You get the distinct impression that they feel superior and are judging you without them ever quite saying it out loud, which keeps their victims in an anxious loop of wondering what they've done wrong and trying to fix it.

I agree with Sneezy that the love question is tough to answer. I think they feel something "like" love, maybe even actual, true love... the problem is that loving someone is inherently vulnerable. Vulnerability is exactly the kind of thing that triggers insecurity, and so what happens? When narcs feel "love," it comes tied down with alllllll the baggage.

My NPD/BPD mom can appear very loving and kind and warm. But it is always a tool. Always transactional. With people outside her family, it's a people-pleasing thing. She believes she is proving her worthiness and likeability. With people inside the family, she uses her "niceness" to get us to excuse her bad behavior. And it works. Whenever my SIL works up the courage to complain about some boundary my mother has crossed, she's very quick to add, "But she does sooooo much for us." 

[Starboard Song]

I agree that need and insecurity were at the core in our case, and that that seems to be the prevalent sense around here: these are most often people who feel injured and corner, or wounded and rejected, most of the time. It doesn't justify anything, but it may in fact be the most common explanation. Our grandmother would say, "I've never in my life met someone with so much need."

I suspect it would be wrong to say they cannot feel true love. Love, after all, is largely a feeling of appreciation and trust. Take a wounded and cornered person who feels they are always being attacked: how much love must they feel for an enabler who stands by their side, clears their path and cleans up their messes?

But feeling love and predictably acting as though they love you? That's different. Don't hold your breath.

[KatKp29]

Covert narcissists use their insecurity as a weapon. They project it outward to garner sympathy and to attract codependent types who will take care of them. The coverts I know are sneakier and more passive aggressive about the power/control games. You get the distinct impression that they feel superior and are judging you without them ever quite saying it out loud, which keeps their victims in an anxious loop of wondering what they've done wrong and trying to fix it.


My NPD/BPD mom can appear very loving and kind and warm. But it is always a tool. Always transactional. With people outside her family, it's a people-pleasing thing. She believes she is proving her worthiness and likeability. With people inside the family, she uses her "niceness" to get us to excuse her bad behavior. And it works. Whenever my SIL works up the courage to complain about some boundary my mother has crossed, she's very quick to add, "But she does sooooo much for us." 

This is precisely what my MIL does! To her own family she is grandiose and mean and nasty to their faces but yet can be sad and pathetic as well. To me, she still puts on appearances. She has never outwardly said anything really out of line. It's the subtext and implications of what she says. She'll talk about my hubby's old girlfriends like "oh (this girl) was a very very bright girl, she's a doctor now" "she was very dedicated to her studies and she's very successful now" "she was such a cute girl, I really liked her!" And just going on and on. It always made me super uncomfortable. The implication being I am none of those things? She does this to my BIL's gf as well. It upsets her too. The most overt thing she once said was when I graduated college. For context I do have a degree however I currently work at a grocery store. Never felt shame in that. But she told me right after I graduated "I have a graduation gift for you but I'm waiting until you have a big person's job to give it to you." That was probably the splash of cold water on me for her. She phrases nasty comments in ways that sound nice or caring but really subtle(or not) digs at you.


My husband does this too! He'll say "yes, I know her behavior is a problem but it's hard to prove it because she does do nice things for us" Meanwhile internally I'm screaming "YES THAT'S WHY SHE DOES IT!!"

[NarcKiddo]

My maternal grandmother was out and out awful. She was a grandiose, uncaring narc who cared only that she got precisely what she wanted, when she wanted it and didn't care who suffered as a result.

My nUNPD mother displays very similar traits to your MIL. Her ego is VERY fragile and has to be massaged by everyone or she tantrums or cries. She goes round tooting her own horn like nobody else has heard of a horn, far less might have one of their own. But she is very insecure. She has on occasion even said out loud to me that she hates herself - which comes across as true but is also an invitation to me to tell her how marvellous she is. She bangs on about what a wonderful, caring mother she is, which is total BS. It's all for outward show or for her own satisfaction. She can be very generous at times - but even then it's weird. Her gifts are normally crap and ill-thought-out. Like she has ticked the box of having to produce a gift but with no care or interest whatever in whether the recipient actually wants it or will like it. Or she will give me a piece of her expensive jewellery that she no longer wears and which I don't even like. But sometimes she will shell out quite a bit of money if it is a big birthday. Usually on jewellery which appears nicely thought out (featuring my birthstone, for example) but always a gaudy, flashy piece that I don't enjoy wearing and have to drag out of the safe for family occasions. And for our silver wedding she produced a pair of expensive earrings for me to wear at the party we were throwing and spent the evening cooing over them and generally drawing attention to this marvellous gift. What did she get for my husband? A big, fat nothing. When someone asked what she got him she looked surprised and told them that he had been given the pleasure of seeing his wife wearing the earrings!\

Are they capable of feeling love? I don't know. I don't feel loved by her though I am told I am. I agree with those who have commented that everything comes with strings attached.

[easterncappy]

I've been dealing with abusive parents for over 25 years, and I've been on and off with communities like this for the greater part of 10 years (mostly because my parents managed to reel me back in a couple of times). So, I've had a lot of time to think about this. I don't think anything I'm about to tell you is 100% certain, it's mostly just theories I've come up with because... don't we all try to figure out how these people ended up the way they are?

Have you ever heard the theory that people become sociopaths as a way to protect themselves when they're very small? It's just a theory, but supposedly when a small child is abused, the way they cope with the bad feelings is by becoming unable to feel anything, even good and productive feelings, which is where the inability to feel love, empathy, remorse, etc. comes from. Not every sociopath was abused as a child, of course.

I think that with a lot of narcissists, it comes from a similar place (but again - not always). With my mother, for example, her childhood was very dramatic and abusive and everything she complained about her mother doing, she effectively copied without even realizing it. I think it's really easy for the children of narcissists to become narcissists themselves. You have to actually put effort into not picking up the fleas. One way to deal with narcissistic abuse is to turn into a narcissist yourself, it's generational more often than it isn't. After all, it's all you know, and it seems to have worked for your mom... and her mom... and her mom.

So I think the answer is closer to "insecurity", a deep insecurity coming from their earliest memories of how they were treated by their family. My mother is an extremely insecure person. It took me a very long time to be able to read between the lines of what she says to see the bitter, stinging insecurity. No one who has healthy self-esteem acts the way these people do. Plus, have you ever seen how a narcissist behaves if people start picking up on the fact that's something wrong, or dare to go as far as setting boundaries or even threatening to leave the situation? Of course they're insecure.

As for love... I don't know, I go back and forth on that one.

[easterncappy]

Reading what you have written about your MIL, I wonder if she has HPD or covert NPD?  People with histrionic personality disorder, especially older women, sometimes have a need to be recognized as the best mother ever.  This is sometimes referred to as "maternal seductiveness," and it is something I noticed early on in my MIL.  For what it's worth, my MIL was severely neglected as a child, and I don't think she has ever felt secure or has ever fully trusted anyone in her life.

Sorry to hijack your post, but this made a light bulb go off in my head. I don't really think that all of our abusers are going to fit neatly into one mental diagnosis, since most of them probably grew up around other personality disordered people and picked up fleas from various things they had to see... but yes, after looking into HPD, my mom has a scary amount of the symptoms. Of course I can't actually diagnose her if my only credential is "woman with internet connection", lol.

It's really bizarre to me how some people find forced affection fulfilling. When my husband and I bought a house, she tried to force me to say that I want her to buy a house on the same street. She was really hurt when she didn't get an enthusiastic "yes", like she could guilt trip me into genuinely wanting her to live near me. She always asked loaded questions like, "was I a good mother?", "I look younger than I am, right?", "do I look good?", etc. and answering them gave me the same sense of dread that being forced to give unwanted hugs and kisses to them did. As a kid, I knew how to answer because I picked up on the fact that telling her what she wants to hear meant no temper tantrum at a young age. Deep down inside they have to know that the only reason we're saying/doing those things is fear of what would happen if we didn't, right? How is that good enough for them?

I think this is good argument for narcissism (and similar conditions) ultimately being a convoluted way to cover up massive insecurities. People with healthy self-esteem don't make a literal 8 year old tell them "yes mom, you look 35 and not 45..." when the kid in question doesn't even know what that means or why it would matter.

2. Are they capable of feeling love? I wish I knew the answer this question.  My experience is that both my MIL and my mom see the world differently than I do.  And so what I consider love versus what they consider love are very different.  I believe they are capable of feeling love, but I realize this could be wishful thinking on my part.  Their love is certainly tied up with a lot of other things, and sometimes feels transactional.  Meaning, as you have noted, there is always a price tag attached.

Right? I think because we aren't disordered (or at least not to the same extent or in the same way), we can't wrap our minds around someone being unable to love... but I don't know, with how much some of us had to jump through hoops for parental approval and how "affection" was withdrawn at the slightest sign of being human and making mistakes, I'm not sure it's the same as our love even if they would call it that. My mom always corners me to tell me, while making creepy levels of eye contact, that she loves me more than anything in the world... well, let's just say that her "love" always felt very different than the actual healthy love I got from my husband or my friends (which never makes me panic or want to throw up). I think, being a useful possession to the narcissist in question is what they think love is. If you stop being convenient, they stop "loving" you.

[donutmoonpanda]

Here's my two cents:
1. NPD presents this way. A sense of superiority permeates everything they do, but they are terribly insecure deep down. The superiority is a mask, a defense mechanism, that hides what they truly feel at their core, which is inferior to everyone. As far as the narc can see, their superiority is constantly challenged or wiped out by the reality around them. They're constantly checking in, "I'm the best, right? Aren't I the greatest?" They constantly have to be reminded of how wonderful they are because they're just treading water trying to keep their head above the sinking feeling that it's not true. Look at it this way, why would they need constant reassurance, if they were secure in their superiority?

2. Can they love? It is my opinion that someone this emotionally immature cannot understand love. That's based on all the therapy I've had. Reading books like Toxic Parents, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, Mothers Who Can't Love, etc. I think Susan Forward would say rather directly that if it doesn't feel like love, it's not love. I'm not saying a narc personality is incapable of love--they're capable of empathy too--they just don't practice it. It's not a skill they care to hone or use.

To quote bell hooks: "When we understand love as the will to nurture our own and another's spiritual growth, it becomes clear that we cannot claim to love if we are hurtful and abusive. Love and abuse cannot coexist. Abuse and neglect are, by definition, the opposites of nurturance and care.... An overwhelming majority of us come from dysfunctional families in which we were taught that we were not okay, where we were shamed, verbally and/or physically abused, and emotionally neglected even as we were also taught to believe that we were loved. For most folks it is just too threatening to embrace a definition of love that would no longer enable us to see love as present in our families. Too many of us need to cling to a notion of love that either makes abuse acceptable or at least makes it seem that whatever happened was not that bad."

[Cat of the Canals]

Love bell hooks and LOVE that quote.

[RogertheGOAT]

I don't know if my mom is BPD or NPD. I think some of the narc moms mentioned here might be actually BPD. It seems that they actually need to be loved deep inside, instead of just admired. 

[Escaped_Goat]

Moping about because you don't get the response you want is immature and very much typical narc behaviour. A non pd person isn't looking for underserved praise and would have too much self respect to weedle it out. And they'd know they'd manipulated it out if someone so it would feel worthless anyway.

[Leonor]

Hello all,

My m is a dx'd hpd/grandiose narc and my mil is not dx'd but textbook covert.

Their childhoods were a barren landscape of emotional and material deprivation, and as a grown woman, I grieve for the generations of pain and loss and trauma that have coursed through our family trees. I feel for them as little girls and sister women who inherited that awful experience in a world much more hostile to women and trauma and survivors than today.

But that empathy, for me, only came into my consciousness when I allowed the awareness that my mothers do not love. By any definition. Because they have no self, no core, no emotional center from which to move and act and be in the world.

Sometimes I hear people say that narcissists are perpetual children. Children, they say, are self centered and  selfish, but they can be educated to "grow out of it" and develop empathy. I call b.s. on that. I see so many children who are naturally empathetic and caring and curious about one another. It's the adults, I find, who try to dampen that wellspring of love: the parents who shame, the teachers who humiliate, the religious who frighten and scold.

The narcissists I know are not children. They are not curious, they are not easily amused, they are not playful and affectionate, they do not love to laugh and make friends and share and snuggle up and tumble about or sing or play. That child has been hollowed out of them, and as adults they are shells with no inner world beyond a constant howling of need.

Nothing is genuine. Nothing is given. Nothing is received. There is simply no there there. I also hear that narcissists tend to project their own twistedness onto others, but I would add that we project our own depth and warmth onto them. We say "deep down" or "at heart" or "if only" because the idea of interacting with a narcissist is terrifying.

My mother is beautiful, smart, funny. She doted on me at times, and her attention was like the summer sun. I worshipped her, and since she said we were so alike, I assumed that her love was just as deep and strong for me. The day to day reality of neglect and emptiness and shame was too much for me to allow into my awareness. It was only when I got older and began to document my memories and experiences of her that I could see that I was just a shiny object, a little mirror, a plaything, in her world of shiny, reflective playthings.

This is not cruel or mean spirited. I could only move forward and feel empathy and protect myself once I was able to accept these women for who they are. Narcissists exist on a spectrum, of course, but the degree of their disorder depends on their capacity for self awareness, and that requires a self. Once I became aware of who they were and how they treated me, I went NC with mil and my own narc mom discarded me.

Asa loving person, you can love the narcissist. You can see them and empathize with them and treat them with dignity and respect. But expecting them to be able to sense, let alone return, that love is only setting yourself up for pain. It's excruciating and many people close physically to the narcissist  are in denial for their own, they believe, emotional survival. You can love them, too, with empathy for their own struggles and fears, and appreciation for how hard they work to love someone unable to love, un-love-able.

The difference between you and the narcissist is that you are a source of love. It springs from you naturally, essentially. You don't need to take it or demand it or suck it out of someone else. You tend to your love hearth and you'll find there's plenty of light and love to go around.

[NarcKiddo]

@ Leonor - fantastic post. So much resonates with me.

I like your point that narcissists are not children. My mother can be very childish in her behaviour. She will have tantrums. She will count out the blueberries to make sure she gets her fair share/more than anyone else. She likes to sing and play but only if everything is done her way. Others are made to join in. I have a feeling she thinks childish behaviour will force the adults around her to tend to her needs. She is one of those who thinks children are selfish parasites. She made that quite clear to her own children when we were small. I don't really know much about children as I have none of my own and no confidence in relating to children. I don't spend time with them. But I did have dogs and even though they were animals I did not find them to be any more selfish than I would expect of an animal that relies on you for everything. In fact they were remarkably loving and trusting. And forgiving if I failed. Why would children not be like this naturally?

[Jolie40]

My mother can be very childish in her behaviour. She will have tantrums.

yes to above
once we were all gathered @ PD's house for a b'day
someone had picked up the cake & immediately PD parent started yelling for 5 min that the cake was wrong (think it was wrong color on flowers) so someone had to bring cake back to store to get it corrected!

instead of just letting it go, just more stress added to everyone
stuff like this happened SO many times