Why is toxic, constant criticism not recognised as abuse??

[rockandhardplace]

I'm preparing myself to leave. I've been preparing for about 4 years. My biggest fear is losing my kids. I have a few videos of him raging mildly at me and heaps of word salad circular emails where he just criticises me. There's a bit of mild name calling, but mostly it's just character attacks - you're useless, loser, miserable, you have no drive; comparing /ranking - can't do as much as other women, will always fall short when compared to others; and weaponizing the kids - kids won't respect you, kids have commented on x, kids have started to notice you're x, setting bad example for kids. Etc etc. Most of these would fall under either projections (all the kid stuff) and twisting the knife about vulnerabilities I'd opened up about when we first met (like not being career-driven). Those early get to know you conversations were all just about getting ammunition to use against me later.
But eventhough no normal person could read these and not recognise what a nasty pos he is and see the absolute futility of attempting to converse with him, there's not much that would actually be accepted as abusive behaviour. Even when the pattern is so crystal clear to me. A recent example is him booking flights for our whole family and me finding out at dinner as he chatted to the kids about the trip. I sent an email saying he had not talked to me about this at all and to send the details. This is his trigger. Me differentiating or him doing the wrong thing and being called out on it. He replies with this disgusting comment about my family and I don't bite and instead repeat my simple request for flight information. Then later that day he responds to a different email of mine about some logistics for our daughters concert that I'd sent like a week before with a completely new bait. Which I reacted to because my defences were down after the revolting thing he'd said in the other email. It escalates and it's full of projections - him calling me abusive, but never able to describe what I'm doing that's abusive, he just continues on with more character attacks and things like "your appalling behaviours". I keep pushing, what behaviours?...more projections... I'm burying my head in the sand, my behaviour isn't normal.
But my point is that I feel sick reading the toxic crap he spouts, the denigrating words, the character attacks, the nasty vague criticisms, but I don't think any judge will read it and see him as an abuser. I think I'm getting better at GR and no-JADE, but despite all this "evidence" of his pattern of abusive behaviour it will mean nothing to a divorce mediator / custody judge.

[notrightinthehead]

Rock, you might benefit from reading the book 'Outsmarting the Sociopath next door' by Stout. It has a chapter on divorce/custody battle with the sociopath.
You might also benefit from reading Radical Acceptance by Brach or the classic Co-dependent no more by Beatty. It is so important to recognize the own contribution to the situation.
When you are tempted to react - this is the time to go EXTRA SLOW. Don't do anything at all. Just focus on your breathing and do anything that will calm you down and give you back your full mental control. For me it used to be long, vigorous walks. Respond only when you are calm and clear of mind. Do not give him any evidence of your emotional upset. This is what he wants. Remain calm, serene, disinterested, boring, polite, and kind at ALL times. At this time your first priority must be clarity of mind. Do not show any emotions. And collect evidence. Do not label the evidence. Just collect.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

I agree with notrightinthehead -

Do not label the evidence. Just collect.

And, there is alot of information out there as notrightinthehead suggests, it helped me.


Based on my experiences over the past year -

Keep a journal because one way of self protection is to forget - make the entries specific, dates, etc....  with actions.  If you ever have to explain a pattern then you have it - and void of emotion.  Even your own lawyer will want just facts. 
My abuse (emotional, verbal, financial) has not been brought up much with the various negotiations/court dates - however, my lawyer has expressed what I have experienced to both the judge and my STBX's lawyer, so it is out there.  I don't think we will go to trial, but if we did, then I have dates/etc... to present.  I wrote a page to my lawyer describing what living with him was like and with various incidents - again with dates/times/locations.  The more facts, the more real it seems.
"Typical" people without either experiencing abuse in some way or trained in abuse, probably wont' understand how you feel. 
Your experience sounds alot like mine towards the end.  My STBX's verbal assaults escalated and I do believe, it was all projection - how he felt about himself. 
I don't know how many kids you have, or ages, but my son wanted ZERO to do with the issues between us. I used to want him to at least recognize that his father was abusing me - wow, I put that on him.  My son had to manage the way he could - so he blocked it out.  And, I do believe once I was truly able to let go and not let it get to me, my son started to relax.  As I didn't engage (yes, at times I did stand up for myself, but then walked away) and didn't react, my son saw my strength.  That's what he wanted - not seeing his mom scared/frightened/depressed....

I stayed because I was afraid of finances and also loosing my son.   If you continue to stay, you still might loose your kids.  Just in a different way.  I wasn't able to be me or parent my son how I wanted to living in hell.  And, it was hell.  Who knows what will happen if you move forward and get a divorce?  However, it won't all be bad or all good - it's not extremes.

Currently, our divorce is almost settled - BUT...who knows?  My STBX likes control so he may change his mind? drag this on longer?  One thing is certain, he knows that his power over me is gone.  Whether it's a nasty text or yelling at me at my son's baseball game, it all bounces off.  He looks like the fool - and a mean, nasty one.   He knows that I am no longer scared, so he's scared of me.   

I am almost at the stage of indifference, and it feels wonderful.  I don't care if he wins a million dollars or has to live with a relative.  I'm free.

Good Luck and you will find your own way - whatever it look like

[moglow]

When you are tempted to react - this is the time to go EXTRA SLOW. Don't do anything at all. Just focus on your breathing and do anything that will calm you down and give you back your full mental control. For me it used to be long, vigorous walks. Respond only when you are calm and clear of mind. Do not give him any evidence of your emotional upset. This is what he wants. Remain calm, serene, disinterested, boring, polite, and kind at ALL times. At this time your first priority must be clarity of mind. Do not show any emotions. And collect evidence. Do not label the evidence. Just collect.

Completely agree. He keeps pushing because he can, then he can also say SEE??? This is how they respond to me! while never ever revealing to "others" what he said that eventually garnered an apparently over the top response. My mother was/is a past master at pushing and pushing until she gets that negative response, then playing victim while making you look like the worst human ever. If "others" only see the side she has imagined in her mind, it looks absolutely believable and understandable, at least on the surface.

Keep your side of emails strictly on the issue at hand - you need to know flight information so you can prepare your children for said trip. Period. Same applies for any other scheduling. It's not the battle he's trying to make it out to be, it's your children's lives you're talking about here. Don't address his bs comments or insults, give them exactly what they deserve: Nothing. They don't exist within you.

Do your best to not take any bait nor respond to his. Take a deep breath or seven and quietly logically readdress when you've found balance. It's not personal if you refuse to make it so - you're NOT that person he's trying to make you out to be.

[rockandhardplace]

Plantflowers - I think I need to go back and read your old posts as I suspect we've had similar experiences! I started to notice that what he was raging about was probably projections when he called me a loser, lowest of the low, for having no career one night a few weeks after he'd "celebrated" his 50th birthday at home with his estranged partner and presents he bought for his kids to give him. This night was my last day of my first year back at uni and I was on a high. Stood in front of me saying "look at yourself, you've done nothing with your life". I'd been the stay home parent and had spent years trying to work out what I might do to get back into workforce. In all that time I never got criticism of that kind. He's been in the same well paid line of work but not really that happy and as all his friends had been my friends husbands he's got nothing outside of our family and his work. But the abuse and projections have really escalated the more I differentiate and the closer I get to graduating. I know most is projection, but sometimes he does this in front of my kids. My 8 year old heard him call me a sociopath for being a stay home parent and going back to uni rather than try and find a minimum wage job or something. At this stage she will talk to me and I'm being honest and saying when dad yells nasty things at mum like that he's being abusive, that is not okay. But I also say that these are adult things and she shouldn't have to hear any of that. I say your dad loves you but he's just behaving badly to me. The other week she said if she could wish for anything in her life it would be for dad to be loving to me as she wishes her parents loved each other. Broke my heart.  My 13 year old son does not want to know anything about his dad's behaviour being wrong. He was screaming at me that I'm lazy, lazy, lazy one day and my son was there. I was triggered by that because at the time we were in lockdown and I was doing all the housework/shopping/home schooling and doing my masters degree while he went into his home office for 8  hours a day. I said to my son "how do you feel when you hear dad speaks to me like that" and he muttered about not wanting to be involved and cried. I have not seen him cry since he was about 10. And soon after that his dad elevated him to GC from SG and now they are actually getting close so I'm even more worried about losing him than his older sister who has been parentified and parrots her dads disrespectful way of talking to us all.
Have you managed to physically separate? Have you just the one kid? And he's not been alienated?

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

This is all my own experiences and thoughts -

Parent alienation is tough, and there are similarities that can be present which may prompt the alienation to happen.  But, every child is different and every family - so it's hard to predict.

A long time ago, I was afraid that my husband would alienate my son.  I worked hard on myself and what I needed/wanted/deserved.  I try not to live my life in fear of the unknown.  Your description of your 13 yr old son, sounds a bit like mine.  My son does want some sort of relationship with his dad - if I point out the abuse, then it stresses him out and makes everything harder.  AND, I think my son also saw my behavior and reactions as part of the problem.  He was right - to a certain extent.  When I was in the fog, I was depressed, lonely, confused, you know...all the rest.  I was broken and maybe my son saw that and was disappointed?  As I became stronger and used the tools, my son became less stressed and actually acknowledge his father's poor behavior more willingly.    I'll avoid the long story, but our divorce is not final but I have my own apartment for months and my son is with me 100% of the time - his choice.  A few months ago, my son was verbally nasty to me - I put him in his place immediately - even told him that I would not tolerate that behavior and if it continued he would be asked to leave and he could live with his father.  I was so scared that he was going to walk out - he didn't.  And, hasn't been like that since.  He is 17, so he can be very obnoxious - like all teenagers.

My parenting suggestions - and please, just based on my experiences -

Don't be afraid to parent.  Show boundaries of what behavior you will tolerate and be firm if they cross the line - but in a calm manner.
They are watching YOU - find your strength, model GR, show how your husband's words/behavior bounce off you.  Even physically shrug if off and make a smirk.  Be the parent you want to be and do it.
I would be proud of what you accomplish and say it - my hard work got me X or I am so excited I did this. 
I agree with verbally acknowledging their bad behavior - it's hard to come up with words that don't put them down. Sometimes, I would be very general  after his outbursts like, "people shouldn't say that to other people, it's not nice".  I do think it helps to acknowledge it rather than just ignore - even if you acknowledge with a look between you and your child and a shrug, and move on with whatever you are doing. 
I've gotten to the point with my son, that I can say things like, "your father has many strengths, but following through on promises are tougher for him".  I'm trying to get him to separate what he says versus what he does.  It's hard to do.
I've also said the comment, "you father loves you....".  But I don't anymore, because does he really?  in his own way?  If so, his love for our son is conditional and not supportive and inconsistent. 

Remember, your children are watching you, it'll help with using the tools and focusing on what your goal is.

[rockandhardplace]

Thanks plantflowers... I know what you mean about saying their dad loves them. I feel like I should say it as I am sure he thinks he does but only as his possessions. I don't know that he actually can love anyone. I don't have to call out his behaviour now with my son because he spends most of his time in his room! But also when his dad is gearing up to anything he runs downstairs. It's his 8 year old sister that hears things but she's doing pretty well on the outside. She will cosy up to him and play fight with him and for a bit I felt scared he would try and get her to align with him too but after reading this account by a girl of same age whose dad was very very abusive and she would try and butter him up to try and get him to be kind to everyone, i feel different. I'm more worried about her feeling she needs to act in a certain way to pacify him. We read these cute bunny book about feelings and she gets sad at the family one because they talk about how mum and dad show me how much they love me and how they make me feel safe etc and I ask her do you feel like this at home? Is there anything more I can do to make you feel loved, secure, respected etc. Her response is always the same - I make her feel loved and safe but not her dad or siblings. It's easy to explain that teenagers aren't always great at showing affection but so much harder when her dad has never said he loves her. I'm trying my best not to engage in splitting myself so I remind her that he works hard for the family and he takes her places like skiing or amusement parks. He's the original disney dad. But I've definitely pulled back with my son as far as saying anything about his dad and just being so GR when he's around that his blow ups aren't as regular,  but also making sure they see that I have a voice and have authority at home. I had a small but very important win recently when they were fighting. Older daughter - GC - copies dad, walks around criticising everyone, name calling, critiquing everything etc. So my son - (SG who is being elevated to GC) - is buoyed up by the attention of his dad and is starting to parrot things she says but to his younger sister. When I try and intervene I get the same I used to get from his older sister - oh you're taking her side of course, she's the favourite... or other ways to deflect / play the victim (all copied from dad of course). Often I get triggered and my message gets lost but I calmly called out what he was doing. Made it clear I wasn't taking sides and just wanted to talk to both of them. I was calm but being firm and importantly I wasn't triggered so remained present and was able to quickly move us all on and had a laugh with him about something else. I've found myself really enjoying the odd dinner when UPDh is in the office. I stop the nastiness fast and find myself being silly with them again. The teenagers rib me of course but they stay at the dinner table with me longer and sometimes will even sit and watch a show with me after rather than running downstairs after wolfing down food.
I think it was in one of your posts (sorry if I'm mixing you up with another) about your ex taking over tv room and you and son just going to your rooms? We do that here. We can have 5 different devices going in the house. But when he's not around or I can find some show that at least 1 kid will watch with me I'm stealing a little time back. Might only be 1/2 nights out of 7 and maybe only 30 minutes or an hour, but it feels nice and gives me hope that I can one day soon make a safe haven for them that they'll only spend a normal teenager amount of time in their rooms and not NEED it to escape the discomfort and tension all the time. I feel less panicked about full on alienation but I still think it's going to be his MO so I want to be prepared for the long game if that's what it takes. And reminding myself that I will have bad days and set backs and there'll be some JADEing again he'll catch me off guard I'm sure but I can have moments of peace and hope inbetween and keep getting stronger so I can face the fight.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi rockandhardplace.

Welcome! You’re in a good place for support here! Since you are preparing to leave, the subject of parental alienation is probably going to be an important one for you. Perhaps going both ways. You are doing so well to seek to connect with your children on their own terms. And how reassuring to hear that your daughter sees you as a safe a loving person.

I noticed that you are trying to manage your husband’s image with your daughter here:

“I make her feel loved and safe but not her dad or siblings. It's easy to explain that teenagers aren't always great at showing affection but so much harder when her dad has never said he loves her. I'm trying my best not to engage in splitting myself so I remind her that he works hard for the family and he takes her places like skiing or amusement parks. “

I’m not sure what you mean by splitting yourself, but it’s not your responsibility to explain or make excuses for his lack of affection. In fact, it’s invalidating to say I don’t feel loved and hear back oh no, he does love you, he took you to Six Flags!

You probably did that to yourself for how many years in order to stay as long as you have. Please do your children the courtesy of accepting their feelings. It’s uncomfortable for sure to face that maybe dad doesn’t give what they need and they are going to really want that safe parent to help process those feelings, especially when younger. That’s actually a lot of awareness to be able to articulate that she doesn’t feel loved by him and her siblings.

This link on parental alienation may be helpful to you, as you work with your children’s feelings, especially as you go forward. https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/parental-alienation-and-parental-alienation-syndrome

I think a lot of good people fear doing it and maybe overcompensate?

However, I think when your son overheard your husband calling you lazy and you asked how he felt about that, I read it like you were trying to draw him in and take your side. That would be alienation. If you had waited until afterwards, and gone to him and said, “You seemed upset, do you want to talk?” and kept it strictly focused on him, that might be different. Your son naturally enough didn’t want to be involved! These are not things he can fix. Witnessing abuse is itself abusive.

It’s got to be so tricky to navigate all of these relationships. Another helpful principle: Putting kids first, always. https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/put-children-first

I have not divorced, but I understand that if you can demonstrate that you are following that principle, it can only help you in court.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

CMC,
I believe without intending to do so, I was actually causing my son stress by my own alienating comments. I'm going to regroup and think about more productive ways to talk into him.....I'll look at the links you suggested as well.

It was my post describing my family living in our separate rooms. It was awful. Glad you are taking advantage of the time you have. It does make a difference. Now, in my own place....It's heaven, truly.  Worth all the emotional turmoil.

[rockandhardplace]

CallMe: parental alienation is my number one concern in all of what's been happening. I remember years before I had any idea what a PD was and thought we just had communication issues some things were happening that made me start to see my kids disrespectful behaviour as coming from watching him. I found this thing online where some psych was just saying that disrespectful behaviour towards a parent can show up in their kids and something about it being damaging to the kids and the parent. I sent it to him because at the time I assumed that if my partner who loved me and loved our children realised that his behaviour could be damaging me or the kids he would change it. Instead it emboldened him to get worse. I used to try and talk to him about GC's rude behaviour, calling me names, belittling me etc, not being aware that she was copying him. When I look back it's so confusing. I did realise that he was belittling me, was dismissive of my perspectives, had these occasional rages but I was more focussed on GC's behaviour/emotional state and how we could as a team work towards helping her. He used to actually blame me. I would use the wrong tone of voice or would try and make her accountable for behaviour rather than laugh it off, I read too many books! Once when he was drunk and I again tried to talk about how worried I was about her he shouted at me that she's not going to see a professional, to throw away all my books, stop talking to other people and listen to him! That she was a great girl but I was going to mess her up. I think that conversation was the start of me realising the FOG I was in. But the damage was done. He has put me down so much their whole lives that they learnt to see me through his eyes. When she was only about 8 she was saying things that sound like they came from an adult but I didn't see it at the time. Like if I asked her to help around the house she'd get angry and say "you want me to help so you can be lazy and sit around all day". UPDH was gone from 7-7 and I had 2 early primary school kids and a baby and no family in my hemisphere. He didn't want our third but would never have used forceful pressure to get me to abort so he used the kids instead. He taught them that me showing attention to the baby was favouring her. He may actually be that stupid that he thinks babies can fend for themselves and I should've been able to maintain the same level of attention and activity for the older kids. When we went into lockdown and he was home every day things escalated. He would monopolise dinner conversations, talk over me, make jokes with GC about me, roll his eyes with her. They would be things that encouraged her to keep thinking negatively about me. Like encouraging this favourites thing when he's the only one whose ever had favourites. Roar laughing when she'd be dismissive of my perspective by saying "oh did you read that on facebook". They used to bully her brother - the old SC- laugh at his lack of sporting ability, joke about how weak he is. Then one day he switched - I don't know if it was DD getting more independent / less angry with me but he started telling her off for calling her brother names. She was so confused. Now it's all about my son. The new GC. After being basically ignored or criticised for his whole life he is naturally enjoying the limelight of his dad, the powerful one. He's only just a teen but has changed so much. From sweet chatterbox to moody angry name caller.
With our youngest it's so hard to know how to allow her to keep seeing the reality of what her dad is and not saying anything that is alienating. I've had lots of other conversations where I do just let her talk about how she feels without saying oh your dad loves you but sometimes I feel she wants reassurance from me that he does. She's such a different personality and I do think a lot of that is him having no interest in her for years and me not allowing him to interfere with my parenting. With my eldest I remember once reading about emotion coaching and saying this might help - he told me someone in his work quit from doing that and I just gave up on the idea!!!!! That's  how under his control / brainwashed I was. And this scares me so much because if he brainwashed me, a fully grown woman what chance do my kids have to fight against his negative portrayal of their mum?? Once he actually told me that my kids didn't respect me because I didn't have any hobbies. At at time where I had literally no free time and he did nothing to help with kids or house and further proof to him was that then 6/7 year old asked him for ideas for a mothers day card for school about why mum is special and he needed help thinking of things to write. You know those things like my mum loves me, cares for me, cuddles me, plays with me. UPDh couldn't come up with any of those things. I needed an exciting job or hobby to be special to my little child!!!! Thing is I have lots of these kinds of exchanges in writing so honestly I hold onto the hope that if they become severely alienated that one day I can show them this stuff or through a therapist we can teach them what their dad did to them. If he does it with my youngest I'll go the court route but might not be any point for the older kids. In the beginning when I read about mediation i used to think that he can be told/court ordered to stop the alienation, but I'm actually afraid if he realises how damaging it is to me and the kids he will actually use it more.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

rockandhardplace -

Your post was so honest and heartbreaking.  Parent alienation is very difficult - long story short, I am alienated from my oldest daughter from a prior marriage, from when she was 14 and she's 27 right now.    If I was to go back in time, I would tell my younger self, have faith, be the parent you can be at the moment, don't act from fear, and just try your best.  I was so consumed with fear - the constant fear really impacted me.

Keep listening to your children, have as many positive exchanges as you can, find your strength, use the tools, educate yourself as much as possible, try and enjoy life as much as you can - we only have one.  There is only so much you can do - we like to think that as parents we have this magical power/ability to make things "right" - but sometimes, it's not about that. 

Are you in therapy?  would that provide you some support and insight?  I like Dr. Ramani's videos, they've been helpful to me.

[rockandhardplace]

Plant I'm so sorry to hear you were alienated from your other child. Are you still? When you say you lived in fear was it of your ex or your child being alienated? I don't know how not to live in fear when the more I hear about PD's and PA the more I'm sure he will alienate my kids from me. How is there not some way to prevent this happening?! I've read soooo many books on PA but nothing about prevention. Only way it can be prevented is the PD learning to control their behaviour! I have no way to address that whatsoever. God this makes me feel so depressed. I don't want people to pretend it's going to be okay but from reading  your posts I see so many similarities. To know you've been alienated already breaks my heart and scares the crap out of me.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

I'm really sorry that my post added to your despair.  It wasn't my intention.  There is only so much one person can do.  I lived in fear about the potential alienation, but that fear paralyzed me.  And I did that to myself.  That's why I wish at the time I was able to enjoy life more, be a better parent, have faith, and all that.  My father asked me years ago about this -  he asked me, "when are you going to let go".  I was so mad at him - how dare he ask me to let go.  But I totally get what he was saying.

It's almost similar to living with a undiagnosed personality disordered partner  - changing expectations and focusing on what you can do to make your life better.  The fear made me hold on tighter and really, no child or teenager likes that kind of desperation.  I thought at the time, I hid that but I bet I didn't at all.  Especially if you are close to your child or there are particularly observant. 

I'm still alienated, yet I am at peace with it, it took time.  She's healthy, has a job, independent, and all that.  I'm proud of her. 

Like I wrote before, we have one life to live.  Living in fear takes away whatever beauty there is to enjoy.  This sounds so....I dunno....spiritual?  It's from someone that's been there and wish I lived some of it differently.  I also think the fear adds to how we can present as "weak" and our children can sense that and perhaps don't respect it?  My thoughts only here....

I remember some very positive things you wrote in a post.  So, there is a solid foundation you are trying to provide for your kids.
Perhaps try and give yourself a day or week where you try and NOT think about alienation and just be.  It's hard but an exercise worth trying.

[rockandhardplace]

Thanks plant. I do step away from obsessing about PA to try and be in the moment and be the best parent I can be. At the same time I want to educate myself as much as I can to be prepared to act early. I was curious as to what made you worry about alienation? Most of the stories I hear seem to be from targeted parents who are blindsided by this. I'm really curious about your exes behaviour that made you fear it. But no worries if you don't feel like sharing that info or thinking too much on that time in your life. I read brainwashing children recently. After all the research I've done I think he's wrong on some counts but still a good read. Makes me think that the seedlings of alienation were there years ago with my eldest. I might've lost her if we'd separated back then as I would just fight her disrespect head on. She's much better with me now. We have a severely ruptured relationship and it's sad that her dad caused that but I think me doing my best to stay true to myself and be the opposite to him is helping. And of course him replacing her with SC as the new GC has changed their relationship. She's still under his spell but not as horrible to me and has started to criticise him at times which he can't take at all so she sees a bit of his true nature I think.