What to do when therapy isn't working out?

[mustard_seed]

I've "failed" with three potential therapists this year and I'm not sure I have it in me to keep trying. I show up to therapy in an easily-enmeshed state. I kind of go with their flow, try to be a good little student, and then find that we're not really addressing my issues.

The last "trauma-informed" therapist ignored me when I talked about abuse and trauma and said, "Don't even think about that stuff. All you need to do is learn to love yourself." And then he talked about his own self-love journey at great length. And with details about his marriage that I didn't want to hear, especially given that his wife was an administrator in the practice. I felt a sense of hope at first re: the self-love work, but after a few sessions it just felt pretty empty and canned. And I didn't feel that he was listening to me.

Is anyone else struggling with this? Have advice about alternatives when traditional talk therapy just doesn't seem to be a fit?

I've thought about a support group, church family, volunteer work--but all of these seem overwhelming right now. On the church family--I don't think I would be a theological fit with any churches in my area. And that might just set me up to entrench the "I don't fit anywhere" story I tell myself.

Things that are helping:
Continued LC & NC with abusive people in my life.
Reading and re-reading "Boundaries" and related scripture.
Learning about the brain/nervous system (Huberman lab podcast) and implementing healing tools. My sleep is back on track--yay.
Moving forward with my career transition and self-employment. I've made decent progress this year.
Massage from a trauma-informed therapist.
Continued healthcare to deal with chronic issues.

I just keep thinking, though, "What if I'm neglecting my mental health by not going to therapy and I just get worse at relating with people?"

I would be interested to hear how others have dealt with the challenge of not finding a therapist (and people in general) to really connect with in healing.

I just re-read this and I sound like Eeyore here... honestly, I have lots of good days and things aren't so bad. It's just the snag of loneliness and wanting to learn how to connect with people in healthier ways that I don't know how to approach right now. Thanks for reading <3

[SonofThunder]

Hello mustard_seed, 

After reading your post, i did not get 'Eeyore', but rather a very balanced, introspective mind, willing to consider all avenues of thought and possibility.  I am not in therapy, nor have been, but may consider in the future, to possibly help in healing. 

So far, YouTube and books fit my INTJ personality traits, but I am open to experimenting with 1v1 counseling.  Groups are not my thing, but i fully accept others preferences for themselves. 

Your descriptive therapy experiences align with Dr Ramani's two similar videos on the subject.  So, if only for reasons of validating your therapy experiences, the Dr Ramani links are below.  Wishing you all the best!

SoT

https://youtu.be/pTI6ctffFbw

https://youtu.be/OPHjf6CKgwQ

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi mustard_seed,

I'm not seeing an Eeyore vibe here either - I agree with SoT, you are reflecting on your experiences with a lot of insight.

I am really sorry that all 3 therapists you met with were not a fit. I mean, that one who made the session about him and his life - I've seen that the odd time (I've met with many therapists over the years to find a fit). It was good of you to see those red flags.

It can be discouraging. After one especially painful drama with a counsellor many years ago, it took me quite a while to make any appt with any of them after that. Sometimes we just feel burned by the mental health professionals and need a time out from them.

In time you'll probably feel more confident seeking out someone new to work with. Have you read about the different modalities? Trauma informed is pretty vague - I know a lot of them use that term. But CBT, DBT, EMDR, etc...are more specific approaches that some of them are trained in.

Are therapy visits essential to healing? In my opinion - no. I think that using a good book as a guide, and learning on your own, can be very helpful too. Crappy childhood fairy on youtube talks about this. She has a video called "why I quit therapy" and she also talks about journaling as therapeutic for complex PTSD.

I really like your list. I have found massage helpful as well!

Hang in there, and just know that a lot of us here have had visits with therapists that were not a fit. It was smart of you to see the red flags and not stay when it wasn't helping.

Trees

[xredshoesx]

i think meeting with the different therapists and realizing they wren't a good fit for what you needed is a very powerful indicator of your growth.  when i was going f2f it was hard to tell the entire history at once bc my family situation is both extremely complicated and almost unbelievable so i understand feeling extreme disappointment when your stuff can't be addressed.  you are doing a lot of very important work besides the talk therapy.  another thought- my best therapy experiences have been working with adults who are trained to help children- so i went as an adult to heal that child inside of me.  the work i did helped replace what was missing from how i was brought up and essentially helped me reparent myself.

[hhaw]

user:

I went through many Ts and found them unhelpful at best, harmful at worst.  Finally, I was referred to a Trauma Informed T who didn't cry, get defensive or ask me to do things that made zero sense to me,bc whatever it was WAS NOT explained to me in a way that made sense and I could internalize.  I think whatever you do should make sense to you, or at least not feel like boundary transgressions.



My therapist's website lists her practice and experience as follows:
*********************************************************************************************************
Areas of Focus:

* Psycholotherapy and Counseling with a Masters Level Licensed Supervisor (LCMHCS), Licensed Clinical Addiction Specialist (LCAS), and specially trained experential Wildreness Therapit who specializes in life transition, depression, anxiety, trauma and moving through those old fears that keep you stuc with mindful awareness and practices that rewire the brain.

*Addiction recovery with a 15+ years sober therapist with experience in 12 tseps and addiction specifit treatment in a residential wilderness setting and outpatient recovery educatin center.

*Spiritual Seeking, Exploration and Spiritual Emergency Counseling with an ordainedd minister and seeker having experienced  my own Spiriritual opening several years ago who can honor, assist and facilitate you on your journey.

*Miditation and Mindfulness studen in Zen and Dzogchen tradition.... this practice will clear, release and shiftyou onto the path of recognizing th truth of your wholeness an provide peace now.

*Advanced Integrative Therapy (AIT) helps you dig deep and transform trauma using your chakra sysem to move it through the body.

*Internal Family Systems (IFS) helps you to tune into your various parts, cultivate understanding and a healthy relationship and develop full awareness of your true nature to dynamically heal the wounded, exiled parts of you to naturally return you to a state of wholenessand perfection.

*EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) that helps process trauma, stuck memories, emotions and negative beliefs with the emergence of insight, changes in memories and new freedom from old stuck beliefs and habits.

-ART - Accelerated Resolution Therapy works directly to reprogram the way in which distressing memories and images are stored in the brain so they no longer trigger strong emotional reactions.

- ART is much like EMDR with a strong emphasis on clearning the trauma somatically OUT of the body, using positive imagery and the brain's natural ability to heal itself.

*Trauma Resiliency Model (TRM) is a mind-body approach that focuses on the biological (somatic) basis of trauma and the automatic, defensive ways the human body esponds when faced with perceived threats to self an others, including the responses "tend and befriend", fight, flight, freeze and fawn.  Explore and enhance your resiliency and restore balance to your body and the mind after difficult experiences.

*Attachment Psycholotherapy heals early attachment wounds, rewiring our brains an central nervous systems out o old patterns of reactivityand im;pulsiveness.  As addaptive core beliefs fall away, a profouond sense of wellness, safety, wholeness an oneness emerges,while deepening our intimacy with others and ost importantly with our Self.

*Intuitive and Angel Therapy providing Intuitive ounseling and Divine connection to facilitate youor own Inner Knowledge.

*Life Coaching, Dream Visioning and Building with a therapist, isioning and small business consultant, and ordained minister trained to help you remove blocks from mind, body and spirit..... from addiction to depression to anxiety to spirituality to money to memories stored in your body...an manifest your drwams to LIVE your best life now.

*Ecotherapy with a Wildernes Therapist to guide yuo in yur experience of the transformative power of the wilderness to outdoor sessions and experiential retreats.

*Breathwork to get back in your body emotionally and integrate difficult emotions.

*Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) and Energy Psychology practices that clear blocked, stagnant emotions and memories using the body's own natural healing meridian system.

*Reiki Master in the Tibetan, Usui and Karuna tradition.

*Experience a blend of traditional psychology, intuitive couneling, transpersonal (spiritual) psychology, energy psychology and energy medicine.

I gently guide in quieting the mind and firing up the heart using mindfulness and meditation as guided by such wonderful teawchers as Thich Nhat Hahn an Jack Kornfield, as well as training in breathework, Reiki energypayholoy and Yoga.  I offer spiritual guidance with ordination as a non-denominational minister.

OUR WORK TOGETHER

I believe connection to Source, who you truly are and who you were born to be, lies waiting for you beyond the challenges you face today.  Spiriitual seeking and exploration is often the flower of seeds planted by life's transitions, losses, addiction, depression, anxiety, trauma, low self-esteemexistential questioning, andny cahllenges you're facing today.  Whether you're seeking just beginning in your young adult years, midlife or culminating in retirement challenges, connection with Source (who you truly were born to be) lies waiting for you beyond those challenges.  I believe this journey is the most important one in yuor lifetime and look forward to walking it with you.

My joy is in being a compassionate witness as your awareness grows and you connect with yuor passion, purpose and bliss.

I work with your mind, body and spirit using practices often backed by science.  These practices have worked for me and many others.  Our brains can be rewired at any age (Neuroplasticity) to change the way we feel, think and greet life.  We have the ability to control the chemicals that are produced in ourains givng us those feelings we experience as peace and happiness.  If your life isn't working the way you want it to, know there is another way.

There are proven practices that can free you fron chronic worry and unhappiness.  I will be your greatest advocate and coach, student and teacher.  There is vibrant joyful life waiting for you as you change your reality to create spaciousness and shift your point of view. 

You are loved and you are not alone.


***********************************************************************************************************




user, I didn't read any of my T's website before I entered her office to begin therapy with her.  When I finally did meet my her, she was calm, no matter what I shared, she was peaceful, no matter how frightening what I said felt.

Had I read the websigte, it might have negatively impacted my mindset OR positively impacted it.  I only know I was on that T's waitlist and had been referred by a nurse practitioner of Western Medicine, who practiced some integrative therapies, in fact yoga psychology with that nurse practitioner failed so miserably WITH ME that it was the basis for the referral to the therapist with the wait list.  The nurse pratitioner was crying as she wrote the contact inforamation down and handed it to me.  I felt so bad about making the nurse cry....and I wanted to "feel better." I really did.   

I provided the information on my T's website so you can interview and research Trauma Informed Ts with an idea of what you' might be looking for or considering...... if someone says they're ":trauma informed" yu should question what they're doing to facilitate identifying and healing trauma OUT of the body.

Trauma gets trapped in the brain and body and we know this now.... it's science based knowledge we can use to figure out how to heal through and beyond trauma responses. 

One more thing about all the different approaches to identifying and healing trauma listed by my T.......
what was amazing during our sessions was the T's ability to sense one approach was creating defensiveness and oppositional reactivity from me.....
my T would retreat without judgement, select another approach I was more receptive to, deploy it and eventually help me understand the point she was trying to make. 

EVERY point my T made was important.

Every time I left her office angry, unable to focus or breathe or get OUT of fight or flight mode...... I had tools, even when I wasn't aware or sometimes helped by accident...... the journey and tools lead me to understanding I had a choice to employ coping strategies based on WORRY WORRY WORRYing, which was exactly how I coped during 15 years of legal battles and physical threats.....

OR.....

learn how to employ the coping strategy of doing what I could in the moment, then putting the story on the shelf and turning towards the joy in front of me, over an over again.

This turned out to be a choice of how I'd spend my moments, hours and days.....
stuck suffering and worrying into the future or ruminating over the past, which was a pattern my brain knew well and chose reactively,. before I realized I was doing it.

Once I became aware this was what my brain was doing..... it made more sense that I might consider changing it.

Your journey will be your own, but I invite you to find someone with a very big bag of tools, the education and experience to wield them wisely in your personal journey and to keep their ego OUT OF THE CLIENT/T relationship, which is more important than you might imagine and can understand till you experience it, likely for the first time in a therapuetic session with someone doing their own healing work.

You referenced a T who shared too much about his wife and healing situation....... I see that as a boundary transgression and maybe that T isn't for you.  Not bc of the sharing,but bc he felt it necessary when it just wasn';tworking for you. 

A T's ability to attune TO YOU, your needs, your reactions in order to TEACH you to be responsive.... to respond in ways that will get you more of what you want and reduce the habits and patterns creating your current state...... it's very personal and you're charged with researching different T's, interveiwing them and selecting one you feel connects with your mission.

90% research and 10% excecution might mean you read through websites OR it might mean you get referrals from people you trust and admire with peaceful worldviews you'd like to achieve for yourself.

Expect to be on a waitlist for a really good Therapist, bw.  Put your name on that list and do some reading.... I really like the book PEACE IS EVERY STEP, The Path of Mindfulness in Everyday Life by Thich Nhat Hanh.  It was the first book my T lent to me and it was the beginning of understanding I had the power to make big change for myself.

Also, I've been taking classes in science based energy healing/brain integration, reading the book ENERGY VS FORCE which made it my T a very good pairing,bc she operates in that realm and explains how the brain, biochemistry, Nervous System, Parasympathetic Nervous systems work and how one may sneak up underneath the biochemical hijacks of survival mode in order to address and heal old trauma.... ANY trauma. We CAN learn to calm our brains and bodies down in order to integrate our brains and address trauma..... the brain only needs a split second to do that since our brains process informatin all the time.... brains are built to do that efficiently but get bogged and blocked when trauma shuts down access to the frontal cortex in order to save us from the tiger in the forest or the snake on the trail.

See..... IF our frontal cortex remains engaged, we COULD lean into the forest and wonder IF we're really seeing tiger stripes, where our amygdala will shut OFF frontal cortex and move us rapidly away from the danger..... it only cares that we survive.  Amygdala/fight or flight/surival brain ONLY cares that we survive and it doesn't care about how we do it, hence.... old, upsetting patterns aren't considered a problem to survival brain.  It's doing it's job, and that's all that matters.

Fronal Cortex brain cares that we're shut down, suffering and repeating self defeating patterns that rob us of joy.... and this comes down to:
*identifying old patterns
*discerning whether or not we want to keep or change them
*if we want to change them we have to build new brain pathways which is possible, but takes practice since old pathways are thick and well traveled.... they're also covered in a thick layer of white fat that makes them lightening fast.  That's our default brain pathway setting and if we want to change them we build NEW PATHWAYS.  The more we select the new pathways, the thicker and more likely we'll select them.... the more likely we can RESPOND and select those pathways.

The old pathways are typically what our brains select when we're reactive..... we just GO down that pathway before you have a moment to reflect and think about other options.  A good T will help you create a split second to consider more options.

Once we build more choice and new pathways.... our brains are have to take the fat from the old thick pathways and transfe it to the new pathways, bc brains are super economical with that fat (Myelin).  It won't transfer that fat until we begin using the new pathways, then those new pathways get stronger, faster and more likely to be chosen as we heal, learn to be mindful and invite more choice into our lives.

in one way it's exhausting work to make these changes.

In another way, our brains can heal in a split second IF WE GIVE THEM THE CHANCE and there were times it flooded and flowed through my body in very physical ways....... it's easy...... but we have to learn to get out of our own ways, if that makes sense?

I hope something in this post will guide you to better  understanding about what a Therpist might offer, how it could benefit you or at least help you decide what you aren't looking for, if nothing else.

[mustard_seed]

You guys & this forum are The Best. I feel much less alone today with this than I did a few days ago.

I'm still processing and will come back soon to share my thoughts. Thank you for the helpful resources and sharing about your own experiences. So so helpful.

[mustard_seed]

Hello mustard_seed, 

After reading your post, i did not get 'Eeyore', but rather a very balanced, introspective mind, willing to consider all avenues of thought and possibility.  I am not in therapy, nor have been, but may consider in the future, to possibly help in healing. 

So far, YouTube and books fit my INTJ personality traits, but I am open to experimenting with 1v1 counseling.  Groups are not my thing, but i fully accept others preferences for themselves. 

Your descriptive therapy experiences align with Dr Ramani's two similar videos on the subject.  So, if only for reasons of validating your therapy experiences, the Dr Ramani links are below.  Wishing you all the best!

SoT

https://youtu.be/pTI6ctffFbw

https://youtu.be/OPHjf6CKgwQ

Hey SoT,
I so appreciate your feedback on my thinking process. It honestly reminds me of some of the better moments I've had in therapy sessions in the past, where I've felt very seen and not pathologized.

Dr. Ramani's videos were on point. Basically, narcissistic abuse is an emerging issue in psychology, and not all therapists are equipped to support clients in healing from it. What she said about being invalidated and encouraged to reconcile or forgive and forget--that's exactly the kind of thing I've been running into.

For now, I'm going to keep learning on my own and keep therapy on the shelf for a little while. Thank you for sharing about your process too--it sounds like you trust yourself and are connected to your own needs and preferences. I'm also an I(ntrovert) and love books. See you around the forum

MustardSeed

[mustard_seed]

Hi mustard_seed,

I'm not seeing an Eeyore vibe here either - I agree with SoT, you are reflecting on your experiences with a lot of insight.

I am really sorry that all 3 therapists you met with were not a fit. I mean, that one who made the session about him and his life - I've seen that the odd time (I've met with many therapists over the years to find a fit). It was good of you to see those red flags.

It can be discouraging. After one especially painful drama with a counsellor many years ago, it took me quite a while to make any appt with any of them after that. Sometimes we just feel burned by the mental health professionals and need a time out from them.

In time you'll probably feel more confident seeking out someone new to work with. Have you read about the different modalities? Trauma informed is pretty vague - I know a lot of them use that term. But CBT, DBT, EMDR, etc...are more specific approaches that some of them are trained in.

Are therapy visits essential to healing? In my opinion - no. I think that using a good book as a guide, and learning on your own, can be very helpful too. Crappy childhood fairy on youtube talks about this. She has a video called "why I quit therapy" and she also talks about journaling as therapeutic for complex PTSD.

I really like your list. I have found massage helpful as well!

Hang in there, and just know that a lot of us here have had visits with therapists that were not a fit. It was smart of you to see the red flags and not stay when it wasn't helping.

Trees

Hey Trees,
It's nice to see you again I always enjoy reading your posts.

I'm seeing that my thinking about this "therapy doesn't work for me" and "I'm failing" is possibly cognitive distortion. What you've said--that it can take awhile to find the right fit. That sometimes we just need a break when things are too painful--feels like a healthier reframe. And much less self-blaming.

The video from Crappy Childhood Fairy hit home as well. I definitely have a hard time staying calm and regulated during sessions and find myself emotional and not thinking clearly. Really helpful insight that I'm still letting sink in.

My plan is to let this simmer for awhile. And to be more focused and discerning when I re-engage. I was just looking for "trauma-informed" therapists that were covered by my insurance, but I didn't pay much attention to their specific modalities. That being said, I've heard good things about EMDR and may pursue that. I also want to learn more about C-PTSD and the science behind it (something the Crappy Childhood Fairy recommended for dysregulation).

I feel calmer and more OK about all of this and having a plan going forward. Thank you <3
MustardSeed

[mustard_seed]

i think meeting with the different therapists and realizing they wren't a good fit for what you needed is a very powerful indicator of your growth.  when i was going f2f it was hard to tell the entire history at once bc my family situation is both extremely complicated and almost unbelievable so i understand feeling extreme disappointment when your stuff can't be addressed. you are doing a lot of very important work besides the talk therapy.  another thought- my best therapy experiences have been working with adults who are trained to help children- so i went as an adult to heal that child inside of me.  the work i did helped replace what was missing from how i was brought up and essentially helped me reparent myself.

Hi xredshoesx,

^ The part I bolded--yes! I find myself trying to tell parts of the story and then stopping mid-sentence, because I'm so worried about how the therapist is receiving it. It's such a long and complicated story, and in bits and pieces, it might not make sense. I think you're right--it's just good to be aware of red flags. A therapist who is a good fit--who gets it--would validate and witness, not judge and dismiss.

That's interesting that you worked with a therapist trained to help children. One thing I'd looked into was equine therapy, but the nearest option was geared towards children so I ruled it out. Maybe worth a second look

Just generally, it's so good to hear about others' healing and how they've moved forward. It gives me hope. Thank you for sharing! 
MustardSeed

[mustard_seed]

Thank you for sharing your struggles, mustard seed. It sounds terribly difficult! I'm sorry you have had bad experiences trying to find a good therapist.

I know it's difficult, but if you have it in you, I would suggest you keep trying. I went through 5 or 6 therapists before I found one who was a good fit. Interestingly, I had a similar situation where one T I saw basically talked the entire time. He loved talking about locally "famous" clients that he had (he wouldn't name names, but he would talk about their issues...it was very strange). Another Therapist was an expert in post-war PTSD, and I got the vibe that my issues weren't as "real" as his military clients because my issues weren't created by being in actual wars. Definitely took the wind out of my sails!

But I'm happy to say that I finally found a good fit (a referral through a friend's therapist), and I'm so glad I stuck it out, because he has been amazing.

I also agree with what trees said about different modalities. I tried CBT, but it wasn't a good fit for me. EMDR has been really great for me. And as trees said, "trauma informed" is quite vague.

It seems that no one teaches us the difficulty of finding a good therapist, and also what a good therapy session entails. You said: "go with their flow, be a good little student." Don't forget that you are paying them--if you want to go a different direction, feel free to do so. My current therapist, sometimes I'll walk in and say, "this is what I want to explore today." Other times I'm more vague and say "I have no idea, please guide me." But you need to share what your expectations are.

I know it can be terribly discouraging, but I'm hopeful for you that there is the right fit for you out there.

Hey user,
Thanks for sharing your experiences (that therapist with the famous clients--what!?). I think part of the problem is not knowing exactly what I've been looking for and not sharing my expectations, like you said. I'm going to take some time to sort through that and really be clear with myself on what I am looking for before I re-engage.

Glad to hear you had positive experiences with EMDR. That's something I've heard a lot. I've been listening to a neuroscience podcast and when I heard the science behind it, it really clicked for me. It also just seems very vulnerable, though. Like you would really want to trust the person you were working with. So that might take some time to get to that point for me.

Thank you so much for your encouragement.
MustardSeed

[mustard_seed]

user, I didn't read any of my T's website before I entered her office to begin therapy with her.  When I finally did meet my her, she was calm, no matter what I shared, she was peaceful, no matter how frightening what I said felt.

Had I read the websigte, it might have negatively impacted my mindset OR positively impacted it.  I only know I was on that T's waitlist and had been referred by a nurse practitioner of Western Medicine, who practiced some integrative therapies, in fact yoga psychology with that nurse practitioner failed so miserably WITH ME that it was the basis for the referral to the therapist with the wait list.  The nurse pratitioner was crying as she wrote the contact inforamation down and handed it to me.  I felt so bad about making the nurse cry....and I wanted to "feel better." I really did.   

I provided the information on my T's website so you can interview and research Trauma Informed Ts with an idea of what you' might be looking for or considering...... if someone says they're ":trauma informed" yu should question what they're doing to facilitate identifying and healing trauma OUT of the body.

Trauma gets trapped in the brain and body and we know this now.... it's science based knowledge we can use to figure out how to heal through and beyond trauma responses. 

One more thing about all the different approaches to identifying and healing trauma listed by my T.......
what was amazing during our sessions was the T's ability to sense one approach was creating defensiveness and oppositional reactivity from me.....
my T would retreat without judgement, select another approach I was more receptive to, deploy it and eventually help me understand the point she was trying to make. 

EVERY point my T made was important.

Every time I left her office angry, unable to focus or breathe or get OUT of fight or flight mode...... I had tools, even when I wasn't aware or sometimes helped by accident...... the journey and tools lead me to understanding I had a choice to employ coping strategies based on WORRY WORRY WORRYing, which was exactly how I coped during 15 years of legal battles and physical threats.....

OR.....

learn how to employ the coping strategy of doing what I could in the moment, then putting the story on the shelf and turning towards the joy in front of me, over an over again.

This turned out to be a choice of how I'd spend my moments, hours and days.....
stuck suffering and worrying into the future or ruminating over the past, which was a pattern my brain knew well and chose reactively,. before I realized I was doing it.

Once I became aware this was what my brain was doing..... it made more sense that I might consider changing it.

Your journey will be your own, but I invite you to find someone with a very big bag of tools, the education and experience to wield them wisely in your personal journey and to keep their ego OUT OF THE CLIENT/T relationship, which is more important than you might imagine and can understand till you experience it, likely for the first time in a therapuetic session with someone doing their own healing work.

You referenced a T who shared too much about his wife and healing situation....... I see that as a boundary transgression and maybe that T isn't for you.  Not bc of the sharing,but bc he felt it necessary when it just wasn';tworking for you. 

A T's ability to attune TO YOU, your needs, your reactions in order to TEACH you to be responsive.... to respond in ways that will get you more of what you want and reduce the habits and patterns creating your current state...... it's very personal and you're charged with researching different T's, interveiwing them and selecting one you feel connects with your mission.

90% research and 10% excecution might mean you read through websites OR it might mean you get referrals from people you trust and admire with peaceful worldviews you'd like to achieve for yourself.

Expect to be on a waitlist for a really good Therapist, bw.  Put your name on that list and do some reading.... I really like the book PEACE IS EVERY STEP, The Path of Mindfulness in Everyday Life by Thich Nhat Hanh.  It was the first book my T lent to me and it was the beginning of understanding I had the power to make big change for myself.

Also, I've been taking classes in science based energy healing/brain integration, reading the book ENERGY VS FORCE which made it my T a very good pairing,bc she operates in that realm and explains how the brain, biochemistry, Nervous System, Parasympathetic Nervous systems work and how one may sneak up underneath the biochemical hijacks of survival mode in order to address and heal old trauma.... ANY trauma. We CAN learn to calm our brains and bodies down in order to integrate our brains and address trauma..... the brain only needs a split second to do that since our brains process informatin all the time.... brains are built to do that efficiently but get bogged and blocked when trauma shuts down access to the frontal cortex in order to save us from the tiger in the forest or the snake on the trail.

See..... IF our frontal cortex remains engaged, we COULD lean into the forest and wonder IF we're really seeing tiger stripes, where our amygdala will shut OFF frontal cortex and move us rapidly away from the danger..... it only cares that we survive.  Amygdala/fight or flight/surival brain ONLY cares that we survive and it doesn't care about how we do it, hence.... old, upsetting patterns aren't considered a problem to survival brain.  It's doing it's job, and that's all that matters.

Fronal Cortex brain cares that we're shut down, suffering and repeating self defeating patterns that rob us of joy.... and this comes down to:
*identifying old patterns
*discerning whether or not we want to keep or change them
*if we want to change them we have to build new brain pathways which is possible, but takes practice since old pathways are thick and well traveled.... they're also covered in a thick layer of white fat that makes them lightening fast.  That's our default brain pathway setting and if we want to change them we build NEW PATHWAYS.  The more we select the new pathways, the thicker and more likely we'll select them.... the more likely we can RESPOND and select those pathways.

The old pathways are typically what our brains select when we're reactive..... we just GO down that pathway before you have a moment to reflect and think about other options.  A good T will help you create a split second to consider more options.

Once we build more choice and new pathways.... our brains are have to take the fat from the old thick pathways and transfe it to the new pathways, bc brains are super economical with that fat (Myelin).  It won't transfer that fat until we begin using the new pathways, then those new pathways get stronger, faster and more likely to be chosen as we heal, learn to be mindful and invite more choice into our lives.

in one way it's exhausting work to make these changes.

In another way, our brains can heal in a split second IF WE GIVE THEM THE CHANCE and there were times it flooded and flowed through my body in very physical ways....... it's easy...... but we have to learn to get out of our own ways, if that makes sense?

I hope something in this post will guide you to better  understanding about what a Therpist might offer, how it could benefit you or at least help you decide what you aren't looking for, if nothing else.

Hey hhaw,
I really enjoyed reading through your post--so many insights to glean about the healing process.

It's been starting to click for me lately how much this is a brain/nervous system issue. Like I knew that intellectually but I'm actually seeing when I get activated and how learning to regulate myself in those moments (like you said, turn to a healthy coping strategy and put the story on the shelf for now) is crucial.

I'd love to find a therapist who gets it and who could pull out the right tools at the right time.

I also resonate with what you said about a peaceful mind and looking at teachings from meditation teachers. I'd love to work with someone who was plugged into that work as well.

All very helpful and encouraging my mind to think in a positive and solutions-oriented way. Thank you for sharing!
MustardSeed

[treesgrowslowly]

Hey Trees,
It's nice to see you again I always enjoy reading your posts.

I'm seeing that my thinking about this "therapy doesn't work for me" and "I'm failing" is possibly cognitive distortion. What you've said--that it can take awhile to find the right fit. That sometimes we just need a break when things are too painful--feels like a healthier reframe. And much less self-blaming.

The video from Crappy Childhood Fairy hit home as well. I definitely have a hard time staying calm and regulated during sessions and find myself emotional and not thinking clearly. Really helpful insight that I'm still letting sink in.

My plan is to let this simmer for awhile. And to be more focused and discerning when I re-engage. I was just looking for "trauma-informed" therapists that were covered by my insurance, but I didn't pay much attention to their specific modalities. That being said, I've heard good things about EMDR and may pursue that. I also want to learn more about C-PTSD and the science behind it (something the Crappy Childhood Fairy recommended for dysregulation).

I feel calmer and more OK about all of this and having a plan going forward. Thank you <3
MustardSeed

Hi MustardSeed,

Processing trauma is an art and a science I think. The book "Surviving to Thriving" by Pete Walker is great because he himself is a counsellor now and he explains what his approach to counselling is. It might give you some additional ideas for what you are looking for in your own therapy sessions.

I quoted your writing above because - it never really occurred to me that I was supposed to stay calm or regulated (i.e. not crying or feeling angry) during my therapy visits. To my mind, these are people who are trained to help us with our emotions - and they can't really do that if we don't feel safe emoting in front of them. So I am wondering if you distinguish between emoting and regulating? Do you feel pressure to give "just the facts ma'am" for your therapist to work with? Just curious.

With proper EMDR sessions my understanding is that the therapist guides the entire session, and that includes ensuring that the session is closed off in a good way, so that we are taught, over time, how to respond to our own memories, thoughts and emotions. Effective EMDR from what I've read, should really dampen / lessen the 'charge' that emotional memories have for us - which is why several sessions are needed because this happens over time.

I went through a course of EMDR and I'm not sure I can speak to its quality. But, as an example of how it helped, when I am out in public and I see someone who physically resembles a relatives I'm NC with, I am pretty good at recognizing the thoughts as they occur "oh shoot is that so and so!" and there's no panic anymore, I stay regulated and make decisions (cross the street just in case, etc...) and then I return much more quickly to whatever I was doing before the sighting.

Before EMDR, a trigger would throw me off for hours, sometimes days. That's just my experience though. And those sorts of practices are taught by Crappy Childhood Fairy, and discussed in Pete Walker's book too, so not sure how much of this was my f2f EMDR and how much was just my own learning over time on how to manage life with C -PTSD.

I think that giving yourself permission to take a break before seeking out a new T is very validating and a good form of self-care.

Trees

[mustard_seed]

Hi MustardSeed,

Processing trauma is an art and a science I think. The book "Surviving to Thriving" by Pete Walker is great because he himself is a counsellor now and he explains what his approach to counselling is. It might give you some additional ideas for what you are looking for in your own therapy sessions.

I quoted your writing above because - it never really occurred to me that I was supposed to stay calm or regulated (i.e. not crying or feeling angry) during my therapy visits. To my mind, these are people who are trained to help us with our emotions - and they can't really do that if we don't feel safe emoting in front of them. So I am wondering if you distinguish between emoting and regulating? Do you feel pressure to give "just the facts ma'am" for your therapist to work with? Just curious.

With proper EMDR sessions my understanding is that the therapist guides the entire session, and that includes ensuring that the session is closed off in a good way, so that we are taught, over time, how to respond to our own memories, thoughts and emotions. Effective EMDR from what I've read, should really dampen / lessen the 'charge' that emotional memories have for us - which is why several sessions are needed because this happens over time.

I went through a course of EMDR and I'm not sure I can speak to its quality. But, as an example of how it helped, when I am out in public and I see someone who physically resembles a relatives I'm NC with, I am pretty good at recognizing the thoughts as they occur "oh shoot is that so and so!" and there's no panic anymore, I stay regulated and make decisions (cross the street just in case, etc...) and then I return much more quickly to whatever I was doing before the sighting.

Before EMDR, a trigger would throw me off for hours, sometimes days. That's just my experience though. And those sorts of practices are taught by Crappy Childhood Fairy, and discussed in Pete Walker's book too, so not sure how much of this was my f2f EMDR and how much was just my own learning over time on how to manage life with C -PTSD.

I think that giving yourself permission to take a break before seeking out a new T is very validating and a good form of self-care.

Trees

Hi again Trees,

Sorry it's taken me forever to write back... I'm currently dealing with my husband's fallout from a recent encounter with his uPDmom. It takes so much energy to be supportive... but not enmeshed... to keep myself grounded. *Sigh*

But in the back of my mind I've been processing what you wrote and your question about being regulated during therapy... which is a good question and has made me think also about what I'm really looking for and need.

I'm honestly just so emotional by the time I sit down in a session and start talking. Like, voice quivering, shaking, sweating, crying. It's like my body wants to have a safe place and a witness and I've had positive experiences with being emotionally vulnerable in therapy in the past, so I'm expecting to be able to let go.

But their reactions have been all over the map and just... not helpful? The one who talked about himself and self-love was downright invalidating, suggesting that I focus on the part I've played in family dynamics, rather than giving people an armchair PD diagnosis. So then, my emotions just got worse as I started buying into what he was saying in that moment. "He's right, I'm the one who's messed up. If only I were healthier, I wouldn't be estranged from people and I'm never going to get better..."

Does that make sense? So... emotional/dysregulated --> negative experience with counselor reinforcing negative self-talk --> emotional escalation --> crash when I get home. And then after a few hours or days I can journal and reframe and realize that it wasn't a fit or whatever. But it's exhausting...

Anyway-- thank you for sharing about EMDR and Pete Walkers book and your experiences. It really does give me hope to hear about how you and others are able to process triggering events with greater ease over time.

I will say-- I've been VLC with FOO for 2.5 years, NC with husband's parents for 6 months, and I do think lightbulbs are coming on in my brain. Like, I can see the patterns in the chaos and I can see the parts I've played in those systems and even in a microcosm how that dynamic has still been at play between my husband and me. I'm really focusing on regulating myself, including cutting way back on alcohol and sugar, which really trigger me. So... maybe my brain and system are coming to a calmer place where some things can rewire naturally as I'm learning. And I've been putting myself out there with people a bit, too, recently and having positive experiences with that. So, one step at a time.

Hope you're doing well Trees! & thanks again <3
MustardSeed

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Mustard Seed,

That makes complete sense and it sounds like you have not had the response from a therapist yet that is truly validating and trauma informed. We both know it's so easy for them to say they are trauma informed, even whether they are or not! 

A truly trauma informed therapist would respond with a lot of validation towards you during a session. They would also demonstrate a lot of skill with how they respond. They may not explain the theory behind their responses, but what should underline their behaviour is that you feel heard and validated for what you express.

After years of seeking out therapy as part of my recovery work, I have seen the gamut of therapist responses as well. One thing your post reminded me of, is the fact that therapists can really confuse those of us who are "too good" at taking responsibility for everything. i.e. those of us who coped with trauma by developing codependencies.

I am one of those types of survivors. If a therapist even slightly suggested that I was responsible for certain situations in my life, I would go along with this. It took me a while (and my own study of codependency) to realize that some of the counsellors I had worked with, wanted me to take responsibility for things that are not my responsibility.

And you are so right. It is freaking exhausting. Honestly I got really really angry about it at the time. Like I had paid for someone to gaslight me? I had periods on and off where I would refuse to engage in more 'therapy' since it was too exhausting to sort out the emotions from being in therapy.

In my humble opinion, a good therapist for us, is someone who understands codependency really well - because their codependent clients are different from their narc and their avoidant clients.

Avoidants are the ones who might need to be encouraged to consider their role in their past because they have probably avoided taking responsibility for some of the things they did. Codependents are sorta the opposite- as a codependent I was more than willing to take all the responsibility sometimes! I am not saying you are codependent - I am hoping to use my experience to say that I now realize I was very codependent when I entered therapy. And some therapists fed into it rather than help me with it.

Early on, when my therapist suggested that I should fix things for other people, I bought into it. I have noticed that avoidants tend to have a different response compared to the response I had (I was the type to go read 3 books on a topic if my therapist suggested it...which wasn't bad per se but I was doing this in hopes that I could take responsibility for both my behaviour and the behaviour of others).

For a long time, I was so confused as to why therapy didn't help more. Like you describe, I would go home and feel like crap and have to journal and re-frame things myself.

I do think therapists can sometimes 'feed' someone's developed sense of responsibility, and that those of us  question ourselves are going to easily get into that mindset of "maybe he's right".

I can relate to what you wrote, when you found yourself thinking "maybe he's right, maybe I'm the problem, or maybe I am the one who can fix this".

In my opinion, I bet some of these therapists don't really realize that they are just making things worse for us. Maybe some of them went into the profession not realizing they are not suited to it. Who knows. Maybe some of them are only suited to helping certain types of people or addressing certain types of issues.

You wrote that your "emotions got worse" during the session - I hope that is not how the therapist framed it. If he didn't want you emoting during your session he really isn't trauma informed!

Emotions are not bad, they can be painful yes, but I think it is important to shift our language around emotions. Your emotions probably got stronger as the session went on, and as the survivor of Complex / Childhood PTSD I definitely understand why we frame our strong emotions as bad. Because they are so painful to deal with and contend with. Our painful strong emotions are what motivate a lot of us to seek help from therapists in the first place - they should know this!

A good therapist is not afraid of having their clients emote during their session. Just my soapbox / 2 cents on that one.

Trees

[mustard_seed]

Hey Trees,

I'm sitting here nodding my head at pretty much everything you wrote in your last post. And I take no offense at the mention of co-dependency. Although she didn't call it that, my first therapist (who I saw over 10 years ago) pointed out what she called "over-functioning" with my FOO. I definitely have a tendency to take responsibility for others' emotions, moods, and behaviors. And really, the healing work is so much about pulling back and focusing instead on myself and my own emotional well-being.

I appreciate your language around emotions. Yes, thinking of my emotions as getting "worse" throughout the session subtly illustrates my relationship to my emotions. Such a good point.

I'm still feeling good about my decision to take a break for now. Self-care, nutrition, exercise, meditation (with a focus on emotional well-being) and learning more about CPTSD and the various modalities listed here. That's the plan at least

This forum and the collective wisdom here help SO much.
In gratitude,
MustardSeed

[notrightinthehead]

Have you checked out the crappy childhood fairy? This is her take on therapy for people suffering with c-PTSD. I found this  very interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Wjw1HpXC0

[moglow]

...crappy childhood fairy

That alone is worth checking into! 

[Boat Babe]

...crappy childhood fairy

That alone is worth checking into! 

The crappy childhood fairy is called Anna Runkle and she's great.  Her angle is healing from complex PTSD, usually acquired in childhood.  She has free stuff and her videos are very helpful to me. Highly recommend.

[mustard_seed]

Have you checked out the crappy childhood fairy? This is her take on therapy for people suffering with c-PTSD. I found this  very interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Wjw1HpXC0

Yes! Trees mentioned this video and I watched it. I definitely see myself in it, with strong emotional responses that escalate during sessions. I'm trying to learn more about c-PTSD and whether that might be what I'm dealing with. Trying to be OK with not knowing for the time being.

[mary_poppins]

I've "failed" with three potential therapists this year and I'm not sure I have it in me to keep trying. I show up to therapy in an easily-enmeshed state. I kind of go with their flow, try to be a good little student, and then find that we're not really addressing my issues.

The last "trauma-informed" therapist ignored me when I talked about abuse and trauma and said, "Don't even think about that stuff. All you need to do is learn to love yourself." And then he talked about his own self-love journey at great length. And with details about his marriage that I didn't want to hear, especially given that his wife was an administrator in the practice. I felt a sense of hope at first re: the self-love work, but after a few sessions it just felt pretty empty and canned. And I didn't feel that he was listening to me.

Is anyone else struggling with this? Have advice about alternatives when traditional talk therapy just doesn't seem to be a fit?

I've thought about a support group, church family, volunteer work--but all of these seem overwhelming right now. On the church family--I don't think I would be a theological fit with any churches in my area. And that might just set me up to entrench the "I don't fit anywhere" story I tell myself.

Things that are helping:
Continued LC & NC with abusive people in my life.
Reading and re-reading "Boundaries" and related scripture.
Learning about the brain/nervous system (Huberman lab podcast) and implementing healing tools. My sleep is back on track--yay.
Moving forward with my career transition and self-employment. I've made decent progress this year.
Massage from a trauma-informed therapist.
Continued healthcare to deal with chronic issues.

I just keep thinking, though, "What if I'm neglecting my mental health by not going to therapy and I just get worse at relating with people?"

I would be interested to hear how others have dealt with the challenge of not finding a therapist (and people in general) to really connect with in healing.

I just re-read this and I sound like Eeyore here... honestly, I have lots of good days and things aren't so bad. It's just the snag of loneliness and wanting to learn how to connect with people in healthier ways that I don't know how to approach right now. Thanks for reading <3

Mustard_seed

I don't know if you've heard of Judy Rosenberg, a narcissistic abuse therapist from California. She understands 100% what all victims of PD abuse (she also treats victims of borderline personality disorder) are going through. I will try her system once I am settled and my finances are good.

She talks a lot about the inability of other therapists to understand Cluster Bs (especially NPD) and, especially, to heal the victims of all that abuse.
There is also therapy for trauma called EMDR and I have heard really good things about the book called 'Complex PTSD' by Peter Walker. That book is supposed to heal/manage the triggers we developed from the abuse of our caretakers.

Also, I forgot. Support groups for narcissistic or borderline abuse in your area. I am signed up for 2 UK and USA-based support groups and am very happy with them.