Weird communication in a dysfunctional family

[Ziggy52]

Some recent interactions with my siblings have me rethinking whether or not it's worth continuing to reach out to them. Communication was, and continues to be, odd and stressful with them. So much of a guessing game. In other relationships, I've grown past a lot of the mind games, but with them, it continues, and it's not only stressful, but exhausting. One shouldn't have to stress over whether or not their family will be annoyed if happy news is shared with them, or a simple "hello" is sent, just "because."

Before I went NC with my parents, I sought therapy. At that time, I was fully FOGgy. I knew I was completely stressed out, but I never would have pointed the finger at them. In that first session, I described some significant life events that were happening in my family. When I paused, the therapist pointed out how bizarre the communication was between the members of the family, including myself.

My mother was always at the center. Literally, all communication went through her.

Family members only communicated through a group email (or one on one with mom), unless we were ALL gathered together in person.

When something negative happened to someone in the family, it always came back to comforting mom more than the person who was directly affected.

Mom had to know the "most" and be told first about...anything.

My mother became friends with all of my closest friends. Not just friendly acquaintances—closer than I was with them.

My mother told me what I was feeling, and I thought she was so wise because she "knew."

She was disappointed my siblings and I didn't spend more time together as adults, but was involved in almost everything we did together, and wanted details of conversations and interactions when she wasn't. We literally planned our get-togethers through her, and if we didn't have her blessing, it didn't happen.

I constantly had to guess what she needed based on her demeanor. I grew up believing if I cared about someone, I would just "know" what they were thinking, feeling, needing or wanting, and vice-versa. If I guessed wrong, it meant I didn't care.

Even though my mother and I emailed every day, often multiple times a day, she wouldn't talk to me on the phone when I called her house even though she was home; she rarely called me, and I was commonly left in the dark about significant family events. It led to some awkward conversations in which I looked pretty foolish.

When I started NC (at the time, I didn't know there was a name for it, I just knew communication went nowhere), the tone and wording in the letters my parents sent were written as if they were talking to a naughty child. I was an adult with my own children.

My dad actually sent me the email equivalent of one of those notes you pass to someone in school during class with a check box; If he was right about what I was so upset about, I was simply to respond "yes."

I know better now. These ways of communicating are stressful, exhausting and non-productive. So, I think I'm done (again).

[Cat of the Canals]

So much of what you wrote is extremely familiar, both with my PDmom and PDmil.

When something negative happened to someone in the family, it always came back to comforting mom more than the person who was directly affected.

My husband's brother died last year. They were best friends. And yet very few people reached out to him to express condolences. All of that went directly to his mother (who was, quite frankly, not close to either son). Neither my husband's sister nor his stepdad said a peep to him. Not a call, text, or email. Nothing. I try not to blame them, because I know his mother was busy making it all about her.

She was disappointed my siblings and I didn't spend more time together as adults, but was involved in almost everything we did together, and wanted details of conversations and interactions when she wasn't. We literally planned our get-togethers through her, and if we didn't have her blessing, it didn't happen.

My mother has thrown jealous fits if I arrange things through my brother instead of through her. Makes me chuckle a little, because we probably wouldn't be so close if she hadn't gone out of her way to enmesh us. 

[moglow]

Holy shitake, Ziggy - we all live parallel lives! Except when we don't ... my brothers and I don't go through mommie dearest, never have. And she HATES that, thinks we should. So of course that makes it all better for me. 

Every time we were on the phone she'd ask about my brothers or their children - didn't call them or contact to see how they are/what they're doing, no - She'd ask ME and make the call all about my brothers while showing no interest about me or my life. She'd literally give rundowns of who she talked to when, as if that had anything to do with anything. During one of her final meltdowns, she lost it because I went to my brother's for his kids' weddings - I didn't tell her I was going.  OH.M.G. You'd have thought I did something to her personally. She was invited, btw, just had said nothing and shown no interest. I made my plans and roadtripped it over, because that's what I do. I'm long since grown and do my thing just like any other person. But her? Lost her shit because I'd not discussed it with her, seemed to think that was somehow a given because it was one of my brothers I was visiting. I was baffled by her reaction - it's not like I'd have hauled her with me plus she'd never said a word about it. I think for her it was some odd loss of face, that they mentioned me being there and she had no possible reply. Tried to play it off like of course she knew I was there, when she had not one clue. There was no reason for her to know.

But there have been other instances where I've asked for a long-lost cousin's contact info and she refused to give it. An aunt visiting *in my town for several days* and mother didn't tell either me or aunt until after she was gone, again with neither of us having contact info for the other. It's a sick control mechanism, I think, plus in her mind it kept her involved no matter what.

Thing is, we chose differently. Mother's nonstop attempts at divide and conquer and keeper of the kingdom only went so far, plus we all realized fairly early on she's not the hub of the family and never was. A couple of my brothers admittedly have no contact and haven't for years - their stuff. I work for one, still relatively close with the other. I refuse to let my relationship with any of them be dependent on mother or the others. It's ingrained harder in some families than others and it's hard to rebuild when there's scant foundation.

[NarcKiddo]

Good grief! Are you me?

So, so much of this resonates if not matches exactly my experiences. Apart from going NC which I have not so far done.

I have no relationship to speak of with my sister and for the moment I don't have the energy to worry about it. Being in contact with the family is as much as I can cope with and if the relationship is meaningful or could be better is no longer of any interest. I hope to survive it and not have to go NC and that will be that.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Ziggy52,

I love the title of your thread. I mean, in a dysfunctional family, is there communication of any other kind lol? It is all weird. To those inside the bubble, to them it has become "normal". But from the outside looking in, as you are doing, it is not 'normal' or healthy at all.

We are told in our culture that families are these great little social units where people find support and belonging and all sorts of things, yada yada yada. The truth is, for A LOT of families, this is where people seek power and control, and this is where people have trauma bonds that cause them to have fleas or be flying monkeys. A LOT of families are far from the 'safe haven in a heartless world' that they are sold to us as.

Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Like you said, it is so unproductive and exhausting. Agreed! Nothing is more exhausting to me than trying to have one effective conversation within a dysfunctional family.

What I had to learn is that the narcissistic insecurity (that is at the root of this controlling behaviour) is not something that gets addressed within the family itself. Individual people such as yourself end up seeing what is wrong, and leaving.

Without some family members to control - a lot of the narcissists in our lives would have nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Controlling the communication is a very common feature within our FOGgy families. Making people guess at what will come next or guess at what they are feeling, is how narcs manipulate the people around them. I grew up around narcissists who were manipulation ninjas. If they detected that someone nearby was feeling grounded and solid, they knew what to do and say to push that person off their axis and make them anxious or confused. Like you said, when you are outside of the family bubble, you know you've outgrown this game.

Trees

[Ziggy52]

Thanks for all of your insights in this. It's validating to know there are people who get it; that some situations aren't fixable with an apology and that NC can be a reasonable decision. I want you all to know I appreciate each you and your replies so much!

Cat,
I am so sorry for your husband's loss of his brother and best friend. And sorry his family wouldn't support him through his grieving.

Moglow,
Your family sounds dreamy, lol! Really though, I wish my brothers were more willing to take some of my mom's expectations of loyalty with a grain of salt. But, I also have to consider that maybe they just don't like me much. I've caused a rift, and I've "hurt" our mother. And at least one of them has told me straight up, "It's all your fault." I've complicated their lives.

NarcKiddo,
No energy to worry about it? I'm right there with you.

Trees,
"What I had to learn is that the narcissistic insecurity (that is at the root of this controlling behaviour) is not something that gets addressed within the family itself. Individual people such as yourself end up seeing what is wrong, and leaving."


Here's my latest struggle that led to this post and my need for another change;

It's meant a lot to me to remain in contact with all my siblings, but they are all still in the FOG, to varying degrees.

One of them was in a very serious car accident recently, and none of the others bothered to tell me, or reach out to me in any way. If not for the fact I was asked to take care of the pets while everyone was at the hospital, I have no idea how I would have found out. I love animals, and helping by taking care of them is a non-issue for me. It's just...a weird way to find out.

My mom smeared me to a close friend who was once my best friend. It's taken nearly a decade to rebuild our friendship. That friend has been included in "family" emails, apparently since I took leave of it, years ago. She knows more about my brother's situation than I do. She was sucked into that FOG, too, and is still there to a certain extent.

She and I used to, and finally again, talk about everything...except what damaged our friendship. She made it clear she would never discuss it with me. So, add that to the "weird communication" pile! —Repairing a relationship without being able to discuss why it needs repairing.

I realized I'm still walking on eggshells with so many people. But maybe not NC—just max chill or a time out. I wonder if they'll even notice?

[Ziggy52]

Quick note; once I found out how serious my brother's injuries were (DH's sister sent info, again, not the source one would necessarily expect in this situation, but appreciated), it freaked me out. It's not all on my brothers to reach out. I took a chance and...crickets.

[moglow]

Wait - your *husband's* sister [not your sister or your brother's wife] provided information about your brother's accident? Why on God's green ...? NM, rhetorical question. Seems they went about that backwards, that you should have been advised then if YOU needed pet care assistance y'all might ask your husbands sister. Truly going round the elbow to get there.

So here's the thing in my head - I realize a whole lot of people [myself included for a very long time] tippy toes around Her Majesty for fear of her wrath and wanting to stay in her good graces. When you're children that's pretty important. When you're adults, grown and with families/homes/lives of your own, the actual fallout of her wrath is somewhat more limited. She can just be mad or not talk or whatever, that doesn't mean your lives have to be dominated by it. You have other things, after all, and get to pick your own friends.

I'm absolutely positive my mother talks about me behind my back, primarily because she used to talk to me behind everyone else's [not because I think she actually mentions me of her own volition]. SO many things she told me that I should never have been privy to and was often told "don't say xyz to abc or that I told you but ..." Took me a while but I learned, and I severely limited what I shared with her. It WOULD be shared elsewhere, likely with her own special spice to make it more interesting. No discretion and as it turned out, not always a whole lot of truth in the details either. She gained information that way, by telling and picking for someone else's opinion that then became part of her narrative. If ever called on it, whoever offered that opinion was then the bad guy and mother was absolved of all.

My close friends don't know my mother - I don't communicate with her and best of my knowledge neither do they. Even childhood friends who "knew" her quickly dropped off. Anyone who disagreed with her in any way [or agreed/sided with us] were banished fairly soon. Mother's all about image, so being part of a group text/email is foreign since it would abundantly clear pdq who *isn't* participating. That'd be pulling the curtain back on the [wo]man behind it. Not allowed outside the central family unit. What I'm saying is, having to defend myself to or be seen by a friend based on things my mother said ... that would very much rub me the wrong way. I'd be leery of said friend being used by mother as an information source, whether knowingly or not. It's certainly not beneath my mother to use people that way. I'd tend to tread softly with this friend, possibly not discuss anything about mother or my most personal stuff at all.

[Ziggy52]

"Wait - your *husband's* sister [not your sister or your brother's wife] provided information about your brother's accident?"
—Yes, that's correct. And it feels as awkward as it sounds!

If I were to make an educated guess as to why my mom befriended my best friend (who is my age), it would be kind of along the lines of "keep your friends close and your enemies closer." My friend was competition for her. Putting herself in between us was a tactical move. This is not the only friend of mine she has done this with, either. I did eventually catch on, and kept later friends away from her. My mom gives the impression of being kind and a good listener. I think some of it's genuine, but she also uses it for manipulation when she feels threatened, which, unfortunately, is a lot of the time.

I assume this particular friend is included on the family mailing list for two main reasons; 1) as a way for my mom to make sure I know I've been replaced, and 2) to get information about my family. Initially, this friend and I had agreed to meet and talk after she got the smear letter. However, she contacted me soon after we'd made plans, telling me my mom said something that scared her, and that because of it, she would NEVER discuss any of it. I suspect my friend told my mom we were going to talk, so she threatened self harm. It was hard at first, but I respect my friend's boundary.

Thank you, Moglow I understand and really appreciate your perspective. If information accidentally makes its way to my mom and there are negative consequences, I'll reassess. But my friend is careful, and apparently gave my mom the same boundary she gave me. (My dad accused me of "using my powers" to convince my friend not to talk about me with my mom )

[moglow]

Then keep using those powers for good, and build better with your friend!

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Ziggy52,

In my FOO, there were also these messed up ways of excluding blood relatives, and including non-relatives. I bet other folks here can attest to this as well.

As a kid, we'd have birthday parties for example, and some random stranger would be included, but a close family member was not invited. During big events like a death in the family - same thing. People not related or close with any of us would be pulled into the inner circle of sharing information about the illness etc.. and then actual relatives (such as myself) would be pushed to the most outer circle. Many important events occurred on one side of my family when I was in my college years, and they didn't even tell me. Years later I find out so and so (who my parent met once) was invited, but I wasn't. 

I wonder if anyone else has a FOO where after a divorce, the narcs stayed in contact with the ex of their own family member, and discarded the family member in order to maintain the relationship with the person who had divorced out of the family?

Staying friends with ex's of their siblings was something I saw a few narcs do.

It is all so messed up.

I just wanted to share that to validate that what you are going through is familiar. It is familiar territory for me to read that there's an email group in your FOO, that you're not in but some other non-relatives are. Yep, I think this is "normal" in a dysfunctional family.

Also, your mom befriending your friend. Yep. Been there. Didn't realize it until later on, that she was befriending the people I brought home (people my age), and undermining the friendship with me. Found out years later about some of the things that happened behind my back.

Common to all of these behaviours? Disregard for healthy boundaries. Who is "in" is based on who will enable the narcissism. Who is excluded? The relatives most likely to rock the boat.

I am sorry you are going through this. Having siblings in the FOG is hard, and I hope you feel supported here as you work through next steps for yourself and how to move forward.

Trees

[bee well]

Hi Ziggy52,

I haven't seen you around the boards, so welcome!

I'm sorry to hear about your sibling's car accident. . And yeah, what a wierd way to find out. I'm glad the pets were taken care of.

I am reading your posts and shaking my head because this describes communication in my FOO to a tee. I believe this is what keeps the dysfunction going. Keeping selected members in the FOG, second guessing each other, with only one central frame of reference. (The head uPD, in same cases more than one uPD and flying monkeys.)

I have also seen behaviours described here such as gossip and backbiting, smearing, banishing anyone who dares to step out of the "party line," head uPDs staying friends with exes, befriending spouses and showing inappropriate interest in the romantic affairs and personal lives of younger family members, excluding certain people from events, then pretending it was an oversight ("they were to busy to remember" nevermind the group texts and other notices that circulated frequently and for long periods), finding out about milestone events from other people long after they were announced. And no one ever notices. "Ehem..." (In my experience these were covert forms of cruelty and manipulation. I mean, who behaves like that?) The list goes on and on. And on. I feel a monumental rant coming on so I will stop here.

I will just say, ZIggy52, we're here and we know what you are going through. It isn't "just you", you are not "too sensitive", and it's not in "all your imagination" (as some of us have been told by our uPD family members.

I think you will find this forum to be a good source of support.

[The Butterfly Effect]

Some recent interactions with my siblings have me rethinking whether or not it's worth continuing to reach out to them. Communication was, and continues to be, odd and stressful with them. So much of a guessing game. In other relationships, I've grown past a lot of the mind games, but with them, it continues, and it's not only stressful, but exhausting. One shouldn't have to stress over whether or not their family will be annoyed if happy news is shared with them, or a simple "hello" is sent, just "because."

My mother was always at the center. Literally, all communication went through her.


Family members only communicated through a group email (or one on one with mom), unless we were ALL gathered together in person.

When something negative happened to someone in the family, it always came back to comforting mom more than the person who was directly affected.

Mom had to know the "most" and be told first about...anything.

My mother became friends with all of my closest friends. Not just friendly acquaintances—closer than I was with them.

My mother told me what I was feeling, and I thought she was so wise because she "knew."

OMG Ziggy. All of the above statements resonate with me. I could've written the very same verbatim. 

My mother was the core distributor of family gossip/chat/information. Myself and my siblings fed her chat, what was going on in our lives etc  and she would then change up the narrative, add her twisted thoughts and then tell us all different versions of events. Because she has triangulated everyone of us, none of us (siblings) communicated directly with one another as a result.  Hence the toxicity, the lies, the manipulation: she had total control. 

Im now NC with my mother and father. My flying monkey enmeshed sister - their right hand woman - stopped any form of communication with me and my brothers (enablers) have ghosted me since I went NC. No fall out with brothers  - they are caught up in the FOG and are afraid to stand up for themselves.  This above anything else hurts. But their actions are theirs and I have to accept that. But it still cuts deep.

Thank you for posting Ziggy. You certainly are not alone in this whole messed up dysfunctional experience.  It continually surprises me how a total stranger can communicate their experiences of a dysfunctional family unit which mirror mine.   

[Ziggy52]

Moglow—thank you!

Trees—
"I am sorry you are going through this. Having siblings in the FOG is hard, and I hope you feel supported here as you work through next steps for yourself and how to move forward."

It's all been so confusing for me! But the compassion I've felt from you all, even through these pixels, has helped tremendously!

Bee well—
"It isn't "just you", you are not "too sensitive", and it's not in "all your imagination" (as some of us have been told by our uPD family members.)"

I've been told all of these things by family. Thanks for the extra validation, I needed it!

Butterfly Effect—
"...they are caught up in the FOG and are afraid to stand up for themselves.  This above anything else hurts. But their actions are theirs and I have to accept that. But it still cuts deep."

This, exactly.

What seems clear now is that I'm more of an acquaintance than family, at least for two of them (injured brother and I have been doing okay, hopefully it will continue). I plan to move forward this way; with two of them expect nothing, initiate nothing. Respond respectfully, but briefly if they do initiate (a sort of gray rock for non-pds who don't seem interested anyway?) Continue to live my best life.

I read through each of your replies more than once. I appreciate you sharing your experiences to help a stranger! Thank you all!