How bad is bad enough?

[5isRed]

I'm frustrated with myself. I am nearly 50 yrs old, but still have this need for an adultier adult to tell me if my experience and relationship with my NM is really bad enough to warrant me 1- believing she's a narcissist, and 2- that it's bad enough to "justify" me not having contact. I can't seem to feel confident enough to say to myself: yes, it's all bad enough, if I feel it's that unhealthy/toxic/destructive to my mental and emotional health, then I have the right to make this decision.

I can't imagine typing out example after example of stuff NM has done over the years, in hopes of there being some official checklist that I could compare against that indicates either "yes, fully warranted, toxic to your mental and emotional health, go forth with confidence" or "no, it really hasn't been that bad, you're reading into things, being too sensitive, not being forgiving enough, you may be the narcissist, so stop trying to ruin her life.

I've read dozens of articles, many books, spoken to therapists, a few trusted family/friends, and just when I think I'm feeling like this is best for me, someone comes along and casts doubt or encourages me to "find it in your heart to forgive her, she's had a terrible life, she's not equipped to know how to love, give her grace."

Who really matters in the cast of characters in my life, where if they thought I was a "bad person" for making this choice, that it should matter to me? My husband and kids get it 100% and support me. They've seen NM in action, but few if any of my friends have been around her long enough to see the depth of it, since I've avoided having her around when friends have been at my home. She's an attention-seeking drama-queen who corners people and either vomits up stuff she shouldn't be saying in front of my friends or has such an entitled/bragging/victim attitude that it makes me and others uncomfortable.

For those who have felt similarly, what did you use to help you feel the confidence that you made the right decision?

[NarcKiddo]

I can't help you, as I could pretty much have written your post word for word, but I would dearly love to see what others have to say on the subject.

[treesgrowslowly]

I agree with NarcKiddo, I hope others chime in with their own views on this important question.

Here is some food for thought from what I've noted over the years regarding the decision to reduce / end contact:

1. Self-concept. We each, all of us, has a way of seeing ourselves. We want to see ourselves as kind, generous loving, patient people who give grace to those we know have had a rough time of it. It is our self-concept. So when we try to do something that goes against our own self-concept, we might get stuck. If I think of myself as a generous person, and then I don't give to a charity when they come knocking, it might feel like that is not "who I am" and so it will bother me to do things that don't match who I think I am.

Antidote: It is good to know ourselves for the kind, loving patient people that we are. But as many books and articles will describe for us, we must be kind and loving towards ourselves too. When someone in our life repeatedly crosses the boundaries that keep us safe and "sane" - mentally and emotionally grounded, then it is time to examine the space we give that person in our life. And no where is this harder than with a parent. No one is taught how to protect themselves from a hurtful person when the hurtful person is also their parent.

2. Yearning for the N parent to meet your needs. Again, no one teaches us what to do with a disordered parent. We were born with survival needs, that had to be met so we could survive. We were born with social and emotional needs that our parents were supposed to be able to meet. Those of us with disordered parents, can be in a state of yearning, well into adulthood. Society may shame us for not 'outgrowing' the need for parental love and support. The truth is, we have yearned for it since childhood (some of us) and still do.

Antidote: Working with a therapist can really help with this I think. I cannot count how many parent-child relationships I've witnessed and envied throughout my life. The yearning for a parent runs deep inside us. It might be what comes up when we think about going no contact. The inner child cannot imagine "abandoning" the person she looked to for love and support for so long.

Also, learning about intermittent rewards as it relates to the narcissistic relationship. Because not all interactions were 'bad' it is actually harder to make decisions about what to do with the relationship. When everything is consistently 'bad' it is much easier to go no contact. When there have been both good and bad times with the person, it is less straightforward.

3. Going "no contact" can feel very scary-permanent to people. In the past we have explored this on the boards here, and that you can remind yourself that it is ok to say to yourself "I'm reducing contact for now, I'm going to reduce contact for the next month and then evaluate where I'm at".

In the years before I went NC, I actually went VLC first, and told myself I'd see them x times a month. I did that for a few years before the year I went NC. If they saw me for example, the amount of times I had allotted for June, then I declined the rest of the invites the rest of the month. I did that for years. I didn't tell them that was my new strategy. I just did it. I didn't know it would lead to going NC - we didn't have boards and forums for that back then.

I started putting those boundaries around my time, and then eventually realized that zero times a month was the amount of contact that felt safe and sane for me.

I believe in the value of good therapy, and good self-exploration as well. A good therapist would ask you to express yourself freely on this - what scares you, what do you think will happen after you go NC, what do you want to happen, what will you grieve, etc....so that you can explore how you feel.

Some people fear retaliation from their parent - which also factors into the decisions around contact.

Some people (not myself) find that some level of contact is ok, and so they manage a relationship based on LC, VLC or VVLC (very very low contact). Others here can hopefully speak from experience about how that is done. Perhaps some of your hesitation is because you feel that LC / VLC VVLC might be possible in your situation.

All I can say about that is that it is personal. What might be tolerable to one person, is not tolerable to the next, and both are valid. From what I've gleaned from the boards here, LC works for some, but not others.

Hang in there, it is not a straightforward process to decide on reducing / ending contact.

Trees

[Cat of the Canals]

Perhaps it would help answer the question if you centered this on yourself and your needs instead of whether your mother's behavior is "bad enough." Do you deserve peace? (Obviously.) Do you have a right to have boundaries that protect that peace? (Of course.) Are there people in your life that are so reactive to your boundaries that cutting ties is the only way you can imagine achieving peace? (Sounds like it.)

Another potential thought: what if you did a "trial" NC? I think a lot of indecision with these things stems from feeling like we need to have an Always/Never, black or white response when it is perfectly reasonable to say, "I think I'm going to take a break from mom for a while" and then you can see how it goes.

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

Your decisions regarding your level of contact are about what's good for YOU. I seriously doubt you are trying to ruin your mother's life. Or that you would in fact be doing so by going NC.

I notice that all of the reasons "against" NC you've written are based on fear, obligation, or guilt (or more accurately, shame). And are therefore not good reasons. There may be other factors at play for you, but you are not responsible for your mother's inability to love. It doesn't help anyone to allow yourself to be continually hurt.

Another thing you mention about finding it your heart to forgive. Forgiveness and reconciliation are two different things. I can forgive my parents, but I have no intention of getting back in contact with them. Forgiveness without boundaries is just enabling.

I agree that the baby step approach has its uses. I like that Trees set her terms and just... did them. I announced I was taking a break and hoo boy the fallout. The fallout made NC permanent. I think we would have ended up there anyway but it may have been a little smoother. Maybe. But you can always change your mind and see what works.

[helpneeded]

You have pain, and so that's bad enough. You want to get away, and that is good enough for me!

My therapist said that we are animals and primarily want to be safe. Our animal brains might tell us we are unsafe, even when we are actually bodily safe, as the result of childhood trauma. If the source of your childhood trauma is in your life, calling you on the phone and haranguing you, then your animal brain is in distress, and doing whatever trauma responses it prefers to try to protect you.

So a big move is to remove this ongoing source of trauma, and get some space to deal with your shit! You deserve it, at nearly 50yo, to do this. Problem is, you've been conditioned to care about her feelings, and what everyone else thinks, more than your own well being. Same here, sister.

I am about your age, and got to NC about 3 years ago. I can say that it is freeing. You are well equipped with your husband and kids on your team. You should also know that, it's not a solution to your pain but just a step. A big step. But there are more steps to follow.

I want to say, in a loving motherly way, to trust yourself.

[donutmoonpanda]

I just saw a related quote today from the trauma therapist Patrick Teahan: "I find the most definitive symptom of childhood trauma is our attempt at getting dysfunctional people to be good to us." And I think it speaks to how often we just keep trying to get our relationship with PD parents to a better place to no avail.

I'm NC with both N parents, and I still struggle with the part of me that says "You can't do this. She's your mother." I don't have the same thing with Dad. Just Mom. Like I'm BUILT to always be attached to her. But I resist it every day. NC was the greatest choice I ever made. Something was always wrong in my life before -- it was like being a square peg lodged in a round hole. But without Mom in my life, that tremendous pain and pressure is gone. It doesn't matter if I can put it into words, it doesn't have to hold up in court, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks -- this decision was just RIGHT for me.

[moglow]

I think that line falls wherever it falls for each of us as individuals. If YOU decide it's "bad enough" then it just is. You don't have to explain or justify it to anyone, just accept for yourself that enough is enough. A therapist had me do an exercise recently that was rather eye opening, helped me look at the bigger picture: write out your ten best/ten worst memories, more of either if it's helpful for you. What I saw was that my best memories don't include mommie dearest [md] at all, not even on the periphery. With the worst memories, she's unfortunately a frequent flyer; situations that didn't involve her directly were made worse my her either talking or thrusting her way in. I tried looking at it as what does she add to or take from my life. Same result.

I don't see anyone as all good/all bad, basically for me pretty much everyone has at least some of both even though we may have to dig pretty deep to see it at times. That said, it *doesn't* mean I think we should continually dig for reasons to keep someone in our lives who's poison and a hindrance. If they're more consistently taking from and beating you down [figuratively or literally], rather than giving and building anything positive, what's the point? More to the point: If this were anyone other than your mother, would you allow them in your life? I'm guessing not.

Many/most of us have spent a lifetime doubting ourselves and what we're seeing, hearing, feeling in our relationships with them - and what's that done for us? Not a whole lot. For me, putting that down has truly been a weight lifted. I started with periods of no contact then kind of allowed it, now realize she's just not that interested on any level. She never really was - I'm the one who kept trying something, anything to get her approval or attention rather than the angry bitter spiteful outbursts that scalded me over and over. I realized she's so deeply unhappy and dissatisfied with herself that there's truly nothing anyone can do. It's not always an easy realization, but it's better than it was. I'm not lying to myself or her anymore. I stopped pretending finally and that's much more peaceful than I ever expected it to be.