Jumping in and out of our life like a big rotten ping pong ball

[wesorya]

What is that thing called that PD's do where they act like absolute dirt, treat you as if you have been discarded, and then suddenly decide that everything is fine and they want something from you and so they act as if they are just the bee's knees and no other conversation has ever occurred before today?

It was my youngest child's birthday today. I received a call from the birthgiver. I'm very proud of how I managed it. I called her back after calming myself, and reminding myself that she has no power over me, and cannot hurt me or do anything to me.

She has not spoken to my children (or even asked to) since January when she saw them last. Since then she's told me that I'm hostile because I didn't act appreciative when she contacted me. 12 months prior she told me that we had no relationship other than in name.
Today's conversation, breezy as you please, wanting to catch up for my youngest child's birthday (which is today) in a few days time (with a tone of "of course we HAVE to catch up for X's birthday you silly billy, of course we have to celebrate the little darling"). She called while he was at school, didn't ask to call back to wish him a happy birthday.

I would love any experiences with talking to children about this kind of weirdness. I have arranged to meet them at a cafe so they can give my child his present, I will ensure it is a very limited time that we are there for. I'm fairly sure I can grey rock this, but it will be strange for my kids. Not sure if it's worth trying to prep them, or just debriefing after. It makes me feel very icky that the birthgiver is such an awful nasty backstabbing person, but puts on this persona of sweetness and light. The big ones see through it, the little one will in time I guess. He asks a lot of questions though and I just get stuck with how to talk to him about this stuff sometimes. (Hes 6).

[bloomie]

wesorya - HI there. Maybe you are talking about something called: Push/Pull? Article here: https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/push-pull

At the least this is confusing and sounds a lot like gaslighting as well. You are getting really head swirling mixed messages and it is painful and frustrating.

Something that helped me wrap my mind around a grandmother who continues to have zero true interest in anyone but herself is to acknowledge that grandparents have a choice to be involved, or not, in their adult children's and grandchildren's lives. That helped me to accept what was/wasn't and make decisions from clear head space. Because it is also true that I have full choice in how/if/when they have access to my children.

The grandmothers in my own children's life were only superficially interested in them at moments they viewed as their entitlement - like bdays or holidays or when there was some kind of audience to see how involved and present they were.

Sometimes that audience was me... especially after having discarded me harshly, ignored me for a period of time, as I suspect this is true in this instance for you?  It's a behavior called Hoovering and a way to avoid responsibility for their poor treatment of us and to be able to jump in and out of our lives as your thread subject line says.

At 6, I'm thinking a child will just enjoy getting a gift and some attention and you making it short and in a public setting is very smart.

Keeping it real and age appropriate with your kids that seeing grandma and receiving a gift from her might be kinda awkward and confusing because she is not around much and they don't really know her very well, might be helpful if the meeting is awkward. She is different from a lot of other grandmas and mothers. It is fair to share that and that you don't hear from her much and are not close. 

As they grow older the result of a grandma like this is they may not have much interest in her life at a time when she wants or needs them to. That is the stage we are at.

[wesorya]

Thank you - yes Push/Pull does sound a lot like what is going on here.
I really appreciate you sharing your experience, that is very validating. Your experience with grandparents sounds very similar to mine.
I noticed the pattern of behaviour several years ago - long before knowing anything about PD or narcissistic traits - where NM was only interested when it suited her - and the words never lined up with the actions. Unfortunately, because I didn't have the additional tools, knowledge or support, it meant that I was pushed to the outer of the entire extended family, and the community (which I've since moved from) because I openly communicated that her relationship with her grandchildren was her responsibility, and not mine. I did this without knowing how to communicate it to others though, so everyone else only saw her view, as I was taught young, and taught well that I am not permitted to voice anything about family issues, and that they will always be blamed on me.

Since leaving that community, things have been much more peaceful, and I have had so much more support and kindness from new friends, neighbours and community.

Thank you so much for the insight on speaking with my children too. I still often find it so difficult to leave full planning mode once I start thinking about my parents.
How old are your children? My older two are 12 & 14, and I struggle with how much is appropriate to share with them about their grandmother's behaviour. Her most recent revolting move (in addition to maintaining friendship with my abusive UNPDex-husband and his mother - keeping in regular contact, unlike her relationship with grandchildren) was to write a statement for family court for ex husband who has been dragging me through court for 18 months now, I'm unrepresented, he has a lawyer. I haven't shared this with them, but I have shared that she has stayed friends with ex, who is not seeking visitation with older two , only youngest.

[bloomie]

wesorya - I hope you have grace for your younger self not having had the tools, knowledge, or support when you needed. Nothing can prepare us for the kinds of betrayals, misaligned loyalties, and expectations for us to show allegiance to a carefully crafted and zealously maintained false image of a benevolent mother/grandmother that we face far before we have the developmental capacity to rightly assess what we are living with.

By the time we put it together - usually in the thick of the demands of life - we are smack dab in the middle of a toxic concoction looking high and low for some kind of noble, rise above the fray, escape hatch that doesn't really exist I have found.

Because we are left with how or if to maintain some kind of connection and how to wisely and rightly, respectfully handle the reality of who our mothers actually are with our children. in many ways, that has been the hardest bit for me.

My children are adults. They are strong, discerning, wise, compassionate adults. It is a core value for me that I do my level best to never malign another person. Finding the line between working through the hurt from my mother's and in law's behaviors that have been very obviously (especially as my kids got older) disinterested, run hot/cold, have been intrusive and damaging, highly critical and blatantly partial has been a tightrope act that I have been far from perfect in. But, I have done my level best to not alienate and yet provide validation for what my kids were observing and honesty about the strain and difficulty of maintaining even a very limited connection with family members who behave like this is and are emotionally immature at best and unable to truly love others at most.

Because of how rivalrous and competitive and potentially divisive both grandmothers behaviors can be, it was a blessing in disguise that they were fairly uninterested in our family most of the time. But, when they were/are interested they will sweep into all of our lives with highly entitled, all sweetness and light, emotionally manipulative, love bombing and or chaos manufacture. 

It is interesting to note that one of my children is much more susceptible to the emotional manipulation of his grandmother than the other. He is a grown adult man and my responsibility at this point is to zip it and hold a neutral position around his choices, knowing that his grandmother would run all over him if he allowed it, expect more and more, and in time, turn on him and criticize and find fault with every thing he offers to her sacrificially and eventually discard him... she who has told me outright she never had 'the feeling' that so many grandmothers seem to have toward their grandchildren.    So far, he has held good limits on his engagement.

Your kiddos are at an age where their lives naturally are busy and filled with what sounds like a solid and great community and of course your love and interest in them. This all may not really come up all that often, but when it does in the years to come, you will know how to support them, speak the truth to them, and walk with them through the disappointments.

Thankfully, in your case and mine, grandparents were not ever going to be the foundational, secure adult relationships in our kids lives because we are here and we offer that to them. It took some time for me to understand this isn't (for my kids anyway) as painful for them as it is for me on the frontlines of it all. If I am okay, and I am, and I don't dwell on this stuff unless something arises, then my kids are not that focused on the lack of grandparents as they live their lives. Is it a disappointment for them? Yes. Is it debilitating? No.

We have  built community for them with other elders that are trustworthy, interested, supportive, and healthy and that is enough.

[wesorya]

Thank you. It's a work in progress but yes I am getting there on the grace for myself. The more time I give myself apart from them, the easier it becomes to separate their behaviour out as being something distinctly abnormal, unkind, and malignant in its' deception - but also not something that I need to feel continually hurt by or fearful of.

I absolutely agree - handling the reality of who our mothers actually are with our children is really difficult. Despite giving me some very clear instances of being an unsafe person to leave my children with, it took me a long time and a lot more insight into the damage that had been done to myself, before I was able to break free from the spell and truly admit and accept that I was allowed to decide that they are not safe people.

I had the meeting with my parents today. My older two chose not to come along. My middle child has transitioned genders in the past 6 months and was a bit concerned about discussing it, and I asked if I would tell them. I told him that I would give that information if the opportunity arose, and that it was quite possible that 6yo would explain it anyway if siblings were mentioned, as he is quite protective and proud of his understanding and support of his siblings gender and name choice.
The older two were not even mentioned during the visit. The parents were on best behaviour, asking only the most superficial of questions, mostly talking about herself and scolding my father, the usual false enthusisasm and charade of normality, directing most of the talking at me - as you said earlier, in what I can see is a type of performance - certainly not an attempt at relationship-building with myself or 6yo - just a show.
It went quite well really, all things considered, I kept the "observation" mindset and medium chill tips at the forefront of my mind.
The older two didn't ask about the visit or how it went, so I haven't raised it. As you said, they are busy with their lives, and are seeing for themselves, without my having to give my two bobsworth. Having the words to help understand what they might be feeling if they do choose to discuss it is so valuable and reassuring, I am so appreciative of you sharing.

Very much looking forward to a proper celebration of 6yo as a person with his friends and our chosen family tomorrow 

[moglow]

But ... they weren't even mentioned, the grandparents didnt bother to ask about them?? Who DOES that. Not being there, having other activities or plans, doesn't erase them. Right now I'm glad they declined the visit. Who can blame them - sounds like they see and sense more than plenty adults I know.

[wesorya]

And more awful and ridiculous given that the whole charade is likely to be repeated for the birthdays of the older two over the next 6 weeks 

Now just to prepare my tactful and kind response for when 12 yo is invited for a present giving, and asks me if I spoke to them about the gender issues. I'm struggling though - I feel like I'm excusing or hiding their behaviour if I just say "it didn't come up" Or maybe that is enough for him to see for himself.
I'm fairly certain if I just anwer "no" to the direct question about whether I discussed the gender issues, there will be some confusion and a feeling of being let down from 12yo - that I haven't been there to help when help has been asked for in navigating this situation.
I don't like leaving my kids feeling unsupported. I also don't want to give out information to my parents, particularly when they haven't made even the most basic of inquiries.

[Call Me Cordelia]

And more awful and ridiculous given that the whole charade is likely to be repeated for the birthdays of the older two over the next 6 weeks 

You don't have to repeat it. Just sayin'.

It went well... they were on best behavior... and still showed in spades they don't give a fat rat's ass about the grandchild sitting right in front of them, let alone the two not present.

How is that good for the kids?

I post this link all the time, but Put Your Children First. https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/put-children-first

[moglow]

Wesorya, brace yourself for an alternate possibility - if they're showing no interest in the older children, ex isn't requesting visitation with them AND they wrote a statement of support for ex ... there may not be a request for those birthday visits. I'd prepare myself for that possibility and the conversation with the older kids that it's not *them*. OR they may get that invitation and just say no.

I don't know that I'd have the transition discussion with the grands other than on a need to know basis, and even then keep it very simple. They'll do with that information what they choose - and it's not your or your child's responsibility to make it okay for them. He doesn't need their permission to be who he is.

The kids likely see and hear a whole lot more than we give them credit for, and I'm sure picked up on the mood when you returned from this visit. They may have some pretty firm idea themselves how the wind blows.

[bloomie]

wesorya - Well...Sounds like it went... and you made it through!

Agree with others your parents made it clear (not that you didn't know) who they are. Ignoring grandchildren and not asking after those who, for normal people, would  be the most important people in your life is very telling. I'm so sorry that is the reality you are dealing with.

Is it possible your parents already know about your son's transition through your ex?

It really seems like your older two have got a good a read on the insincerity of your mother and don't want to be used as a prop. If an invitation is extended for the older kids bdays do you think they will want to go?

[wesorya]

Wesorya, brace yourself for an alternate possibility - if they're showing no interest in the older children, ex isn't requesting visitation with them AND they wrote a statement of support for ex ... there may not be a request for those birthday visits. I'd prepare myself for that possibility and the conversation with the older kids that it's not *them*. OR they may get that invitation and just say no.

I don't know that I'd have the transition discussion with the grands other than on a need to know basis, and even then keep it very simple. They'll do with that information what they choose - and it's not your or your child's responsibility to make it okay for them. He doesn't need their permission to be who he is.

The kids likely see and hear a whole lot more than we give them credit for, and I'm sure picked up on the mood when you returned from this visit. They may have some pretty firm idea themselves how the wind blows.

That was my thinking also regarding the transition discussion with the grands. 12yo has already asked me whether I discussed it with them when I saw them. I said what I felt was right, that there wasn't an opportunity for it to be discussed. I waited to see how this was digested, and then added that the grands didn't bring up the siblings during the visit. My insightful, clever, amazing 12 yo reflected that they were aware that by not going with me and 6yo to see grands, that they may be giving up the relationship enough that they may miss out on birthday money/present this year, but that it was a sacrifice they were willing to make.

And more awful and ridiculous given that the whole charade is likely to be repeated for the birthdays of the older two over the next 6 weeks 

You don't have to repeat it. Just sayin'.

It went well... they were on best behavior... and still showed in spades they don't give a fat rat's ass about the grandchild sitting right in front of them, let alone the two not present.

How is that good for the kids?

I post this link all the time, but Put Your Children First. https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/put-children-first

Absolutely agree. If the visit is offered it will certainly be optional.

wesorya - Well...Sounds like it went... and you made it through!

Agree with others your parents made it clear (not that you didn't know) who they are. Ignoring grandchildren and not asking after those who, for normal people, would  be the most important people in your life is very telling. I'm so sorry that is the reality you are dealing with.

Is it possible your parents already know about your son's transition through your ex?

It really seems like your older two have got a good a read on the insincerity of your mother and don't want to be used as a prop. If an invitation is extended for the older kids bdays do you think they will want to go?

I don't think they would know, he's only been told very recently by 6yo. Even if they did know via my ex, I think my 12yo has possibly realised that they wouldn't acknowledge it unless the information comes direct from myself or 12yo.
I think they might want to go if they are given a personal invitation on their birthday and the likelihood of a present or money, and if they know that it is planned the way the last one was, for a short controlled visit, in a neutral place.