Not sure what my mom is trying to accomplish right now

[easterncappy]

Context: If the question is "Which PD do you think they have?" the answer is "yes". I have no freaking clue. PD's attract PD's and the storm of dysfunction they create lasts generations. Deeeeep rooted in both sides of my family. Long story short, my extremely violent alcoholic dad sexually abused me. I used to think my mom was some innocent victim as well but she knew all along, she just didn't really care that much, his paycheck made it worth it. I was expected to be compliant and pretend it didn't happen like all of the good little girls in my family do. I've posted a lot about it on this website, I probably sound like a broken record at this point.

I'm going to give birth to a baby girl in under a month (!!! ). I've spent years telling my mom that her creep husband is not allowed near any children I have, if I ever have any (I've been saying it since I was a teenager and didn't even know if I wanted kids). She's always claimed to respect this choice. I posted about it before so I'll keep this short, but she's been insistent on both of them going to the birth, the baptism, having my kid(s) over for "fun weekends with grandma and grandpa!" (pretty sure getting molested and watching violent drunken fits isn't fun but ooookay), etc. as if I hadn't spent years telling her that that's not happening. Eventually, I broke down and told her that her husband is not allowed near my children, stop asking, it's never happening.

Since then, she's treated me very coldly. I'm not like, desperate for her validation, I just don't get it.

Is she trying to get me to apologize and play into the dynamic again? I know some part of her is offended by the fact that I won't sacrifice my daughter's well-being so that she can pretend our family is normal, but I figured she'd push that to the back of her mind after hearing this for so many years. Is she actually disconnecting from me (would be sad if it happened in such a childish way but hey - at least that'll be that)? She won't stop bragging about how much time she's spending with her "friends" (I don't freaking know - friendships were for stupid people not even a year ago) and how "she's finally going to be living for herself, a life of freedom, she's finally happy to be alive". It's really weird, out of nowhere. Her facial expression and tone are just very tense and passive aggressive lately. She keeps telling me that I'm full of hatred and judgment and that I'm extreme and blah blah.

She's not going to get an apology if she wants one. I guess this is half venting and half wondering WTF is going through her brain. Like lady, I'm saying he's a child molester, not you, and you're pretty good at compartmentalizing, so what's the deal?

I'm trying to sort out the last of our bureaucratic things (a lot of this happened while waiting in line at the DMV over a car I needed to get my name taken off of yesterday ), since I don't want any ties to her once I have the baby, since they'd be excuses to show up.

The worst part is, if I actually did bring my daughter around them, they'd just think she's annoying and make her feel bad the way they did me. They both admittedly and openly hate children. She'd be good for being cute and small but that's it, the second she had age-appropriate needs they'd get angry with her like they did me.

Sorry this is all over the place. Still processing yesterday.

[easterncappy]

"What's the big deal? We just want to show up to the hospital and hold her and maybe take a few pictures".

Why does a child molester need pictures of my infant daughter, mom? Why does he need to get his grubby child molesting hands on my infant daughter, mom? What's the point?

Maybe all of this is her conscience fighting her PD. Like, a part of her knows that sexually abusing children is very wrong, and the justifications aren't keeping up with that reality right now. This might be wishful thinking. It's so easy for me to dish out advice and analyses of people's parent's mental issues but when it's mine, I still want to resort to "there's a loving mom under all of the layers of mental illness, I just need to hack away at it more". And I'm wrong. I know I am.

[Cat of the Canals]

It sounds like your mother is realizing you're deadly serious about this boundary re: your dad not being allowed near your child (and I'll say again, good for you), and she's not happy about it. For one, this will prevent her from putting on the appearance that you're all One Big Happy Family. But also, every time it comes up, it's a reminder of her complicity in the terrible abuse you endured. She can play the denial game all she wants, but I bet somewhere deep down, she knows all of this is partly on her.

So I'm guessing she's either:
1. stonewalling you in an attempt to punish and get her way. (I think of it as Silent Treatment with talking.)
or
2. this is the devaluation phase of a discard cycle.

I can empathize with your confusion, because my PDmom has generally always been very "lovebomby." Stonewalling and ST were common, but she always reverted to mega-fawning to get the family to return to the status quo after any drama. I was 18 when I went through my first discard cycle. It was mindboggling. I sort of knew she was manipulative and controlling, but I felt that under that, she had a strong loyalty to me (that's how well all the lovebombing worked, I guess). It wasn't until I went through my second discard as an adult that I realized how very conditional her love is and that she isn't really loyal at all.

[NarcKiddo]

Sorry - I don't get what actually happened yesterday. I have read most, if not all,  of your posts here and I was under the impression she knew they were not going to be allowed to visit but was still refusing to acknowledge that.

Is it that you had always told her in principle her husband would not be allowed to see your kids, but had not yet told her in categorical terms that her husband is not going to be allowed to see this child? And that is what went down yesterday? And it's since then she has been cold?

I mean, I don't actually have to get any of it - but maybe answering the questions even if just to yourself might help with the processing.

You are a month away from meeting your baby girl in person. Your hormones and emotions will be ramping up now, so anything crap your mother does is going to be extra tough to deal with. Knowing to expect nothing better from her is probably not going help you either, as it is hard to control a visceral reaction. This must be making things really tough for you.

The thing is, this is a hard deadline that is not going to move. The baby is not going to stay inside for another 6 months to allow your mother more time to work on you. She is going to be aware of that - and if she thinks her happy family mirage is going to be shattered, that is now going to be happening very soon.

I have no idea what to advise in any practical terms as I don't have kids and now won't. I would invite you to consider whether the loving mother you feel is under there would allow you to find her even if she exists? She's probably built her own shell to protect her vulnerabilities and that shell is not letting you in. It sounds like you've been hacking away for your whole life (like most of us here) and how far exactly have you got?

Hugs.

[easterncappy]

It sounds like your mother is realizing you're deadly serious about this boundary re: your dad not being allowed near your child (and I'll say again, good for you), and she's not happy about it. For one, this will prevent her from putting on the appearance that you're all One Big Happy Family. But also, every time it comes up, it's a reminder of her complicity in the terrible abuse you endured. She can play the denial game all she wants, but I bet somewhere deep down, she knows all of this is partly on her.

So I'm guessing she's either:
1. stonewalling you in an attempt to punish and get her way. (I think of it as Silent Treatment with talking.)
or
2. this is the devaluation phase of a discard cycle.

I can empathize with your confusion, because my PDmom has generally always been very "lovebomby." Stonewalling and ST were common, but she always reverted to mega-fawning to get the family to return to the status quo after any drama. I was 18 when I went through my first discard cycle. It was mindboggling. I sort of knew she was manipulative and controlling, but I felt that under that, she had a strong loyalty to me (that's how well all the lovebombing worked, I guess). It wasn't until I went through my second discard as an adult that I realized how very conditional her love is and that she isn't really loyal at all.

Biology is a hell of a drug. If this really is an attempt at discarding me, it'll be bittersweet. The desire of a loving mom who protects me and gives me guidance is always going to be there, no matter how aware I am of the fact that she isn't and never could be that. So I hang onto her, even if it's not the way either of us want. Bleh.

I'm just now learning that discarding has a cycle. I did some light Googling but I'll probably dive deep and it'll eat up my Saturday. I think what's shocking me so much, beyond the innate feelings of "but that's my moooom" (I know), is how naturally this is coming to her. We used to be "best friends", we "had a bond like no two other people have", blah blah. Stonewalling isn't something I'm very educated about either, but it seems like it might be what's going on. She's 1000x more bitter and passive aggressive and moody than she ever has been, but the scary big girl topics haven't come up since that day.

A part of the discard cycle that I'm reading about is comparing the soon-to-be-discarded person to others. My cousin, who my mom has always said very ugly things about and never liked, just had a baby too... with an alcoholic weirdo with violent tendencies (like all of the men in our family) who I never approved of, so I know the PD cycle will likely continue, and my mom is suddenly singing high praises of this cousin. Because, I guess, she's playing her part? Marrying another dysfunctional weirdo and never daring to question that something might be wrong. I'm not jealous or anything, but like, I thought my mom hated this girl.

[easterncappy]

Sorry - I don't get what actually happened yesterday. I have read most, if not all,  of your posts here and I was under the impression she knew they were not going to be allowed to visit but was still refusing to acknowledge that.

Is it that you had always told her in principle her husband would not be allowed to see your kids, but had not yet told her in categorical terms that her husband is not going to be allowed to see this child? And that is what went down yesterday? And it's since then she has been cold?

I mean, I don't actually have to get any of it - but maybe answering the questions even if just to yourself might help with the processing.

You are a month away from meeting your baby girl in person. Your hormones and emotions will be ramping up now, so anything crap your mother does is going to be extra tough to deal with. Knowing to expect nothing better from her is probably not going help you either, as it is hard to control a visceral reaction. This must be making things really tough for you.

The thing is, this is a hard deadline that is not going to move. The baby is not going to stay inside for another 6 months to allow your mother more time to work on you. She is going to be aware of that - and if she thinks her happy family mirage is going to be shattered, that is now going to be happening very soon.

I have no idea what to advise in any practical terms as I don't have kids and now won't. I would invite you to consider whether the loving mother you feel is under there would allow you to find her even if she exists? She's probably built her own shell to protect her vulnerabilities and that shell is not letting you in. It sounds like you've been hacking away for your whole life (like most of us here) and how far exactly have you got?

Hugs.

I don't get what happened yesterday either. Yesterday we had to get the car registration thing over with. I told her a couple of weeks ago about my dad not being allowed my daughter, and she's been cold since, but yesterday was the first time we had to be around each other for this long at once. We waited in that line for about two hours, and she just sort of went on tangents about things. I don't get what goes through her mind or where she stands on anything, since it fluctuates so much. When I was 17 and nowhere near having kids, she was so respectful of my decision... because, I guess, she thought I'd get over it by the time any of that happened. Now I'm 25 and she goes back and forth between "okay, that's your decision" and acting like a giant baby over it. Now she's in giant baby mode and I've... never really seen her act this coo coo. I mean, I've seen some out-there behavior, but this has caught me off guard the most.

Every time she does something bonkers lately I have to go on here and post about it to make sure she doesn't rewrite it the next day and so that I know I'm not actually going crazy. You're right, the baby is going to be out in a month (could even be sooner). I'm scared of what'll happen around the due date (I don't plan on telling her when I go into labor or anything - I do not need to deal with psychological warfare when pushing a watermelon out of my crotch ). She won't drive up here, and I won't go down there. My dad could take her, but hopefully she hasn't conveniently forgotten about the "the police will be called if he ever finds his way onto my property" boundary because I'm dead serious about it.

The illusion will have to be shattered at some point. I guess it'll all have to implode when it implodes - I can't deal with drama, suicide threats, screaming, etc. with a newborn to be taking care of. This is what locks, security cameras, police officers, the "block" button, and restraining orders are for. Or maybe I'll be discarded. Who the hell knows. I gotta be prepared for anything with these two.

Thank you both for the responses. I was going to be a productive adult today but my brain is fried from yesterday and I appreciate everyone's input.

[Andeza]

Forget productive for a day, you need a break. If you're home, just take the day and chill. You've got plenty enough stress without her adding to it. Wherever you plan to deliver, make sure they know you want no visitors. No one is allowed to show up except for: and you give them a list. It's generally on the birth plan, which is a single sheet of paper expressing things you'd like, or in the case of visitors require, about your big day. They're obligated to keep out anybody you don't want there because of privacy issues. They don't want to get sued. I know you won't tell your mom, but sometimes people have a way of finding things out and this could eliminate any nonsense the day of.

About 15 minutes after I gave birth, we announced the birth to the entire family by way of text. The usual "Mom and baby healthy and resting, baby is this big, everybody is okay" line. Within a minute my phone rings. The only person ridiculous enough to call me was, that's right you guessed it, my uBPDm. I swiped ignore. When she tried again I gave my phone to hubby and said "You're in charge." I didn't have to deal with anything else until the next day. Her feelings were hurt that we didn't let her know I was in labor, which was absurd. She lived on the other side of the country, it was 3AM, the baby got there in three hours, we were all hyped on adrenaline and exhausted and just trying to get our feet back under us, so to speak. I really didn't care that her feelings were hurt. Besides, it was super par for the course from her. ANY big event. Birth. Death. Wedding. Holiday. She MUST find something to get her feelings hurt about so people will say "There there, it's not your fault. It'll be okay. You'll be okay." Because she LIVES for that.

Which brings me to my final conclusion. I'm going to throw option 3 into the mix. It's entirely possible that you M is pitching a fit in order to get attention back on her because with the baby coming soon, she feels ignored. Ain't that a real brain twister? And also, ain't that twisted?

Hold firm. You're doing the right thing in barring access. This is how generational trauma stops. You can, and will break the cycle, because you're going to be one fierce Mama Bear that sets the record straight as to how family is and is not allowed to treat each other. Good for you, honey!

[nanotech]

Forget productive for a day, you need a break. If you're home, just take the day and chill. You've got plenty enough stress without her adding to it. Wherever you plan to deliver, make sure they know you want no visitors. No one is allowed to show up except for: and you give them a list. It's generally on the birth plan, which is a single sheet of paper expressing things you'd like, or in the case of visitors require, about your big day. They're obligated to keep out anybody you don't want there because of privacy issues. They don't want to get sued. I know you won't tell your mom, but sometimes people have a way of finding things out and this could eliminate any nonsense the day of.

About 15 minutes after I gave birth, we announced the birth to the entire family by way of text. The usual "Mom and baby healthy and resting, baby is this big, everybody is okay" line. Within a minute my phone rings. The only person ridiculous enough to call me was, that's right you guessed it, my uBPDm. I swiped ignore. When she tried again I gave my phone to hubby and said "You're in charge." I didn't have to deal with anything else until the next day. Her feelings were hurt that we didn't let her know I was in labor, which was absurd. She lived on the other side of the country, it was 3AM, the baby got there in three hours, we were all hyped on adrenaline and exhausted and just trying to get our feet back under us, so to speak. I really didn't care that her feelings were hurt. Besides, it was super par for the course from her. ANY big event. Birth. Death. Wedding. Holiday. She MUST find something to get her feelings hurt about so people will say "There there, it's not your fault. It'll be okay. You'll be okay." Because she LIVES for that.

Which brings me to my final conclusion. I'm going to throw option 3 into the mix. It's entirely possible that you M is pitching a fit in order to get attention back on her because with the baby coming soon, she feels ignored. Ain't that a real brain twister? And also, ain't that twisted?

Hold firm. You're doing the right thing in barring access. This is how generational trauma stops. You can, and will break the cycle, because you're going to be one fierce Mama Bear that sets the record straight as to how family is and is not allowed to treat each other. Good for you, honey!

ABSOLUTELY 

[treesgrowslowly]

I also think that narcissists are threatened by someone in their life being pregnant. It means that this person is going to have new boundaries, is going to put their energy elsewhere (take care of the newborn) and not be as available for supply.

Sadly, there is quite a bit of literature on how in marriages, when a partner is abusive, the abuse often escalates when their victim gets pregnant. I think the same thing can happen to us when we have narcissistic parents.

The aggression towards me ramped up during my pregnancy. It made it clear to me, how even VLC was less and less of an option, because every conversation (even though I made sure they were rare) involved pushing me on my boundaries. Even if I only spoke to them once a month, that one conversation, revolved around pushing me on my boundaries. All I did during those conversations, was grey rock when they tried to push me on my boundaries.

I was there to provide supply, and the pregnancy threatened that. This article sums up how I was seen, I was a source of supply.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/toxic-relationships/202108/the-concept-narcissistic-supply

When we are being manipulated by them - especially emotionally manipulated - it can feel very confusing. So when we get confused, we try to make sense of the situation we are in. But with narcissism, the truth about why they are behaving this way, is based on knowing that they are very disordered in their own thinking. They themselves (the narcissistic parent in your case) do not have a handle on why they feel the way that they do. As a child you probably worked hard to figure out her mood and her intentions. It becomes a habit for many of us.

They bring all their disordered thinking and behaviour into their interactions with us. We try to make sense of them. I did it for years. 

As the article above mentioned, they are fragile and dependent on the people around them for supply. The people around them will feel FOGgy as we try to sort out what to do and how to understand their behaviours.

They do not like boundaries.

Their wacky, confusing, inconsistent, contradictory behaviours are reactions to people having boundaries.

She is reacting to the boundaries you asserted.

The discard phase is part of that - they don't like boundaries and are going to react to people asserting boundaries. I honestly think that the way the narcissist reacts to our boundaries, is what ultimately dictates whether we can be LC with them or not. Some narcissists are just hell bent on manipulating us at every turn. The ones that put their own adult children through the discard cycle over and over, are wrecking too much havoc on our adult lives, and it becomes unsustainable for many of us, at a certain point, to go through the cycle yet again with them. What we might have been able to manage early in life, becomes wholly untenable as we get older. And if we become parents ourselves, wow, the energy to deal with a disordered parent just isn't there anymore.

That is what I went through. I could tolerate their abusive narcissistic cycle in my 20's and then things changed for me, and I couldn't keep these disordered people in my life anymore.

Those boundaries you've expressed are hella important. It is how inter-generational trauma gets stopped, as Andeza wrote yesterday.

Take good care of yourself today, and let things on your to-do list go if you can so that you can rest and give yourself the rest you deserve!

Trees

[Leonor]

Hello Easterncappy,

You are describing a very sad and common reaction of family members when someone insists on the truth of their abuse. Anger. She's not upset or confused. PDs are crazy but they're quite simple. She's pissed that you said your dad is not allowed around your daughter.

I would also very gently bring to your awareness that your mother was complicit in your father's sexual abuse of you and sexually abusive of you as well. The behaviors you've described about your mom aren't "inappropriate" or "a little weird." They're sexual abuse.

So she is not going to respond to you in any way that is not protective of her husband and defensive of herself. She is not a neutral party. She is not on your side.

If you want to include your mother in your and your child's life, you are going to have to deal with this mom, the mom you knew growing up, not a fantasy "well maybe if dad's not around" mom or "I just have to keep good boundaries around her" mom, or "maybe one day she'll finally get it" mom.

You are also, and I'm sorry to say I speak from experience, are going to have to be hyper-vigilant about any "special" bond or relationship that she will endeavor to establish with your daughter with or without your father in tow.

I know I'm a broken record about this, but it is so helpful for you as a new mommy to have a kind and gentle therapist at this time. It's not all doom and gloom and pain and trauma. When I had my first, I brought him to my therapy sessions in his little car seat and we just coo'ed and aah'ed over him while my therapist reassured me that I was a good mommy and sometimes I even nodded off for fifteen minutes or so. It was just a time of experiencing total support and gentleness. And on the hard days, I had someone to call and talk to (me or my husband, dear man!) while I sobbed out all my hormones in the shower or got freaked out from lack of sleep.

Stop this distraction with the grandparents. YOU are Mommy now, and in mothering your little girl you will experience the miracle of re-mothering yourself. Who would you have wanted your mother to be instead of the broken, damaged and hurtful person who raised you? Be that mom for you and your little girl.

[Boat Babe]

Hello Easterncappy,

You are describing a very sad and common reaction of family members when someone insists on the truth of their abuse. Anger. She's not upset or confused. PDs are crazy but they're quite simple. She's pissed that you said your dad is not allowed around your daughter.

I would also very gently bring to your awareness that your mother was complicit in your father's sexual abuse of you and sexually abusive of you as well. The behaviors you've described about your mom aren't "inappropriate" or "a little weird." They're sexual abuse.

So she is not going to respond to you in any way that is not protective of her husband and defensive of herself. She is not a neutral party. She is not on your side.

If you want to include your mother in your and your child's life, you are going to have to deal with this mom, the mom you knew growing up, not a fantasy "well maybe if dad's not around" mom or "I just have to keep good boundaries around her" mom, or "maybe one day she'll finally get it" mom.

You are also, and I'm sorry to say I speak from experience, are going to have to be hyper-vigilant about any "special" bond or relationship that she will endeavor to establish with your daughter with or without your father in tow.

I know I'm a broken record about this, but it is so helpful for you as a new mommy to have a kind and gentle therapist at this time. It's not all doom and gloom and pain and trauma. When I had my first, I brought him to my therapy sessions in his little car seat and we just coo'ed and aah'ed over him while my therapist reassured me that I was a good mommy and sometimes I even nodded off for fifteen minutes or so. It was just a time of experiencing total support and gentleness. And on the hard days, I had someone to call and talk to (me or my husband, dear man!) while I sobbed out all my hormones in the shower or got freaked out from lack of sleep.

Stop this distraction with the grandparents. YOU are Mommy now, and in mothering your little girl you will experience the miracle of re-mothering yourself. Who would you have wanted your mother to be instead of the broken, damaged and hurtful person who raised you? Be that mom for you and your little girl.

And hugs ec

[easterncappy]

Thank you for the responses everyone. Yesterday she got weird. After a couple weeks of being cold and unpleasant, I suddenly started getting cutesy inside joke text messages. I didn't reply because I was confused. Like WTAF? Then I went home and took a nap and woke up to her spamming my phone with text messages about "I just need to make sure you're okay" and then calling me multiple times in a row. I always roll my eyes at the "I just need to know if you're safe" stuff - where was that attitude when her husband was abusing me? My husband (also from a PD family) said she doesn't seem like the type to permanently discard me... although, this might be because her and her mom had a similar dynamic, and my mom always played good girl. Maybe my mom really will discard me after realizing I'm not going to play into the dynamic anymore, because I do really mean it. I don't know, we shall see.

Andeza:

My mom also needs to have hurt feelings all of the time. Strangely enough, when I stopped giving into those constant perpetual never-ending hurt feelings, she stopped doing it as often. I used to play the whole "oh no, what did I do wrong, I'm so sorry" game. Then, after I realized what was really happening, it turned into "if you want to have hurt feelings because of this, that's your right, but I honestly don't think any normal person would be hurt by this - sorry, call me when you're done". I know, terribly mean (not that I'd ever do this to a non-PD whose feelings I hurt for legitimate reasons), but usually within 2 hours I'd get a phone call where she was no longer screaming and sobbing and making threats. Magic.

I wanted to say she's probably not jealous of the baby, and then I remembered all of the times she was obviously jealous of me as a little kid. What a freaking weird woman. I don't even plan on telling her when the baby is born because I want the first two weeks or so to be just me figuring out how to be a mom in peace.

treesgrowslowly:

I get what you're saying. Initially, I think that because of the generational enmeshment in my family (especially, but not just between, women), my mom was excited that another little girl was getting added to the mix. She claims to have really enjoyed me when I was a baby and toddler, before I really had too many complex needs or thoughts of my own. She frequently speaks of back when "we had a good relationship", when I was still under the spell of "we're best friends and have a bond like no other". That is when she was the happiest with me. The older I got, the less she liked me.

I also think she's feeling a bit of guilt, like others have pointed out, at the fact that I'm claiming that what happened to me as a kid was bad enough that normal people break family relationships over it. She looked at me like I was crazy when I said that most mothers call the police and move out if this happens once, that they don't just pretend it didn't happen as it happens again and again for 20 years. She's upset that the boundary both points out that she did something wrong (she got off on the "I'm just another helpless victim of his - don't look at me!" thing for a looong time), and because it means she won't be able to drag another little girl into her messy life. I can't be a "supply" if I see through her now (and there's no going back despite her shallow attempts to "fix" the relationship), and my baby can't be groomed to be another "supply" if I won't let my parents near her.

Leonor:

I've been looking for therapists. I really would like one. I'm trying. My plan doesn't cover too many in my area so it might have to wait two more months until I can switch to another plan. Or I might have to commute an hour or so to be able to see a decent one in person, but that's not currently in the budget. Trust me, I know I need it.

You're right. Her first reaction upon me telling her was a blank facial expression... then "well, as long as you and I still have a good relationship!" (she might still be banking on the idea that I think of her as a fellow victim and not a perpetrator)... then, the passive aggressive weirdo stuff I've honestly very rarely seen before... then, yesterday, back to being cutesy. What. She might still be pissed but better at hiding it now. I know it's eating her up that she can't pretend we're a normal family anymore. I know she bragged to everyone about my pregnancy (against my wishes) and now she's going to have to figure out what to say when, well, she won't have any pictures or information about the baby.

And the sexual abuse is real. And ongoing. A couple of months before I joined this forum, just after I started showing, I spent the night at their house because we had some plumbing issues at our house. My dad was drunk, in his underwear, yelling at me to help him with something on his phone, and kept trying to touch my stomach. I firmly told him to stop trying to touch me, he got angry, my mom decided I'm a "showoff" and "acting tough" from the other room, same old story. I just wanted to go home but my husband was working on the plumbing issue (he didn't want me spending the night there at all). I told my mom that I don't know why she wants to tell my dad I'm pregnant when she was planning on it. She told him, and he's "so excited to be a grandpa". It's either her or the police that will have to explain to him that she jumped the gun there, depending on how stupid he wants to be after the baby is born. It's not like I haven't been telling her for almost 10 years that that's not happening.

I know I can't even trust her to take my daughter clothes shopping, because of the one time my mom laughed along with a mentally ill woman who walked around a store harassing me about my weight. I can't trust her to spend 5 minutes with my daughter, because anything ranging from suicide threats to "let's sell your used underwear online - men would pay a ton of money for it!" to giving my daughter tobacco products (no offense to any adults who use them - my mom just used to give them to me when I was 14 so she'd be the "cool mom"), can all happen in under 5 minutes. How would I know that a "car ride to the park" wouldn't actually end up a car ride to her house so my dad can abuse my daughter? Even under supervision, my mom says terrible things. I don't need my daughter seeing me forcibly remove my mom from the house because she started openly talking about sex or other inappropriate topics (because I would).

All of this just so my mom can feel like a grandma. I grew up mostly without my grandparents (only my mom's mom who was around for half of my childhood - the rest were dead or estranged) and I didn't mourn it at all, so I doubt my daughter will. The only reason I entertain the idea is because it's socially expected and my mom wants it. This is the same woman I'd call crying when her drunk husband went into my room when I was a kid and she was hanging out with her friends, just for her to go "oh... uh... okay..." and maybe ask him to stop over the phone. Like, that hurts more than the sexual abuse did.

Sorry for rambling but like. I don't know. There's a lot going through my mind.

[square]

"I just need to make sure you're okay WITH ME."

[Cat of the Canals]

So back to lovebombing, eh? Fairly predictable, really.

I used to be more certain my mother would never discard me. Over the years, as my boundaries have gotten stronger, I feel less certain of that. And I think that's how it goes. You get some static here and there as you set little boundaries. But as they get bigger, and it becomes clearer to the PD that you are not going willingly back into the FOG, their reactions get bigger, too.

Keep in mind, also, that discards are NOT always permanent. I might even say they are rarely permanent. PDmom has discarded many friends over the years... I can't think of any that were permanent.

[easterncappy]

"I just need to make sure you're okay WITH ME."

I suppose so! There are a lot of tricks she's told me about her mom using on her as a kid that she's trying on me now. My grandma had the benefit of owning a duplex, my mom and dad lived riiiight next door for the first 10 years of their marriage, they probably spent more time with each other than either did with her husband. My mom moved to another continent after a while and she's still firmly in my grandma's grasp because my grandma uses all of these techniques and they work spectacularly for her. My mom eats them up every. single. time. There's even been points where my mom admitted she moved far away to avoid her mom, and is glad she doesn't have to see her anymore... the slightest criticism, however, is met with "I love my perfect and wonderful mommy and you're a bad person for not accepting her for who she is".

It's really obvious what she's expecting from me. That just like her, I push the discomfort aside and hold my mommy's hand forever. Just a year ago she wanted to buy a couple of acres of land so we can live in houses right next to each other. Then I did the scary moving far away thing (not a continent but a drive she's hardly willing to make). And it's playing out the same way it did for her except the psychological mind games aren't working as well as she'd like.

So back to lovebombing, eh? Fairly predictable, really.

I used to be more certain my mother would never discard me. Over the years, as my boundaries have gotten stronger, I feel less certain of that. And I think that's how it goes. You get some static here and there as you set little boundaries. But as they get bigger, and it becomes clearer to the PD that you are not going willingly back into the FOG, their reactions get bigger, too.

Keep in mind, also, that discards are NOT always permanent. I might even say they are rarely permanent. PDmom has discarded many friends over the years... I can't think of any that were permanent.

Does your mom still talk to you sometimes? I'm sorry if that's not okay to ask. I'm just wondering because from what you say, she seems pretty adamant about the discards, and you seem like you have the boundaries thing figured out a hell of a lot better than I do.

The FOG is well-ingrained into both sides of my family. It doesn't always play out the same because the abuse came from different parts of the spectrum on both sides, but pretty much everyone's parents are absolute monsters yet every adult child is convinced it was all a misunderstanding and their mom and dad are wonderful people who are beyond criticism anyway. It's a hard relationship to end. It's hard to establish boundaries. But man, I haven't been able to go back to pretending she's a good mommy since that day 8 years ago where she admitted to knowing and not caring about the abuse. Everything was stagnant for a while because I didn't really have any major life developments during that time, besides college and a few boyfriends, but now that I'm married to someone who sees my family for what they are and I have a baby on the way... things are starting to happen between me and her. She's tried everything to go "back to how it was". We just don't talk about it anymore, I guess. I still love her. It'll hurt like hell either way that the relationship has to end... but I think, it will have to. My baby is always going to be more important than these people.

[treesgrowslowly]

Easterncappy,

I was in a similar position when I was expecting my child. I did not want my FOO to influence my new baby.

I just want you to know that it is possible to keep your own child away from your abusers and their enablers. I did it. It can be done.

Trees

[easterncappy]

Easterncappy,

I was in a similar position when I was expecting my child. I did not want my FOO to influence my new baby.

I just want you to know that it is possible to keep your own child away from your abusers and their enablers. I did it. It can be done.

Trees

I was reading The Ultimate Betrayal last night, binged about half of the book in one day, and there was a whole section on how being raised by personality disordered parents makes you less able to spot when someone is a bad person, because you've normalized bad behavior so much, don't trust your instincts due to constant gaslighting, don't think you're worthy of "good" people, etc. And it made me think of all of the friendships and relationships I had with other personality disordered people growing up. I didn't know better, I didn't have good defenses or a sense of "I don't like what's going on here" (it took years to sort of learn how to think that way), and I attracted those people by behaving like a person out of an abusive home - just what they wanted, a confused girl with low self-esteem who wasn't going to question their abuse.

And I just really don't want that for my daughter. I want her to recognize these things for what they are. I don't want her to think they're normal. If, God forbid, she ever meets people as bad as my parents are, I want her first instinct to be "these people are coo coo and I need to get away from them". It would break my heart if I ever saw her date loser after loser because she thought that's just how men are, or if she constantly got involved with delinquents because, like they did to me, they easily seduced her. I know that even occasional visits from my mom might desensitize her to absolute bizarro mentally unwell behavior. Literally 5 minutes here and there could make her think "if my grandma acts this way, it's fine if my boyfriend or friends act that way too".

Sorry for rambling again. You're right. I need to prevent this from ever happening and it is totally possible. It might be uncomfortable and hard, but I can't let them do to her what they did to me. Because I know they want to recruit another little girl to their family cult.

[moglow]

Because I know they want to recruit another little girl to their family cult.

Part of this process is realizing that they don't/can't even acknowledge this much. They're still thinking promises and kissing up and denials - possibly even fauxpologies- are all that's needed here. It's not. YOU have to step up and just be the enforcer of your boundaries, same as you would with anyone else you don't want around your child. Like it or not, that's who they are - people you don't trust and sounds like you have little reason to trust. I had a hard time wrapping my head around that, that mother doesn't have a special In just because "she's the mother." She wouldn't get special access because she's a grandparent either - my older brother and I discussed that just after his daughter was born, that dear niece was never to be left alone with that woman. Mother'd already proven to us who she is and we had no reason to think she'd be any different with the next generation. Turned out she was no more interested in the grands than she was with us, but still. Hard firm boundary that he and I established right up front -we never discussed it with her, just lived it.

You really don't have to explain, apologize or discuss it with them, is what I'm saying. It's just not on the table and limiting information keeps it off the table.

[easterncappy]

Because I know they want to recruit another little girl to their family cult.

Part of this process is realizing that they don't/can't even acknowledge this much. They're still thinking promises and kissing up and denials - possibly even fauxpologies- are all that's needed here. It's not. YOU have to step up and just be the enforcer of your boundaries, same as you would with anyone else you don't want around your child. Like it or not, that's who they are - people you don't trust and sounds like you have little reason to trust. I had a hard time wrapping my head around that, that mother doesn't have a special In just because "she's the mother." She wouldn't get special access because she's a grandparent either - my older brother and I discussed that just after his daughter was born, that dear niece was never to be left alone with that woman. Mother'd already proven to us who she is and we had no reason to think she'd be any different with the next generation. Turned out she was no more interested in the grands than she was with us, but still. Hard firm boundary that he and I established right up front -we never discussed it with her, just lived it.

You really don't have to explain, apologize or discuss it with them, is what I'm saying. It's just not on the table and limiting information keeps it off the table.

I don't spend all day thinking about stuff in psychological terms but it's funny because my gut feeling has already been "I wonder what gift she'll try to get me after doing all of this... and then, of course, the 'we're coming over' text next time my husband isn't home, or something similar...". The fauxpology and kissing up is the gift. The denial is going to be the "when can we drop by?". It's like they think there's an amount of money they can spend on me that will make me offer my daughter to them for molestation and enmeshment... they must really, truly think that's just what normal families do. The Ultimate Betrayal goes into that a lot, too. A lot of moms say "that's just what men do when they're alone with children". My mom's always implied it but never said it. For a long time, they thought that helping with my college tuition would buy a bit of Happy Family play-pretend. I welcomed the money because I felt like I've been screwed over enough by them, that I might as well get something out of being born to them. A while back my mom wanted a key to my place because... I think that time, she got me some plates and "just wanted to make sure I was okay".

I don't owe them an explanation. If they were literally anybody else, and not my mom and dad, I wouldn't even be thinking about any of this. I doubt they'll actually be interested in my daughter, because they barely were with me, but they'd probably want her over just to have her over... to yell at her if she has age-appropriate needs, to confide in her about adult things, and you know... worse stuff too.

[Cat of the Canals]

So back to lovebombing, eh? Fairly predictable, really.

I used to be more certain my mother would never discard me. Over the years, as my boundaries have gotten stronger, I feel less certain of that. And I think that's how it goes. You get some static here and there as you set little boundaries. But as they get bigger, and it becomes clearer to the PD that you are not going willingly back into the FOG, their reactions get bigger, too.

Keep in mind, also, that discards are NOT always permanent. I might even say they are rarely permanent. PDmom has discarded many friends over the years... I can't think of any that were permanent.

Does your mom still talk to you sometimes? I'm sorry if that's not okay to ask. I'm just wondering because from what you say, she seems pretty adamant about the discards, and you seem like you have the boundaries thing figured out a hell of a lot better than I do.

The FOG is well-ingrained into both sides of my family. It doesn't always play out the same because the abuse came from different parts of the spectrum on both sides, but pretty much everyone's parents are absolute monsters yet every adult child is convinced it was all a misunderstanding and their mom and dad are wonderful people who are beyond criticism anyway. It's a hard relationship to end. It's hard to establish boundaries. But man, I haven't been able to go back to pretending she's a good mommy since that day 8 years ago where she admitted to knowing and not caring about the abuse. Everything was stagnant for a while because I didn't really have any major life developments during that time, besides college and a few boyfriends, but now that I'm married to someone who sees my family for what they are and I have a baby on the way... things are starting to happen between me and her. She's tried everything to go "back to how it was". We just don't talk about it anymore, I guess. I still love her. It'll hurt like hell either way that the relationship has to end... but I think, it will have to. My baby is always going to be more important than these people.

Totally fine to ask, and we are still in contact. The discards I experienced were of the temporary variety, but after the second time, it was a wake-up call to how "disposable" I truly am to her, which was NOT how I'd ever thought of our relationship. I have pushed things to LC by moving long distance and reducing phone calls to the expected/demanded once a week to once a month. She's not happy about either thing, but she still clearly sees me as a useful source of supply, which I believe is the (probably only) reason I haven't been more "permanently" discarded.

And you are soooooo much further along with boundaries than I was at your age. No contest. I was still asking "how high, Your Majesty?" when she told me to jump. I've only been fully Out of the FOG for about 3.5 years. I'm also a lot better at "talking the talk" than "walking the walk" when it comes to boundaries.    But it's been a long journey in simply realizing I'm allowed to say no, let alone actually doing it for real.