PD women acting like "getting and keeping a man" is the most important thing

[easterncappy]

I made a comment in another thread (started by me lol) where I remembered some of my mom's very weird and unhealthy views about relationships. For context, my mom and dad do not have a normal marriage by any means. There was some cultural pressure to marry young and stay with that person even if you end up hating them and abusing each other and even cheating on each other.

Ever since I was a kid there was a weird obsession with my appearance and "being pretty". Male attention was treated as extremely important, even if it was some drunk guy yelling at me from a truck when I was walking to the corner store (I was in high school). Any discomfort was met with "oh come on, he was giving you a compliment! Relax! He LIKED you!". This happened once since I met my husband, the guy who did it was in a work vehicle, and my husband tried to get him fired. My mom thought this was a dramatic overreaction.

Lots of emphasis on being the right weight, having the right hair, dressing attractively, etc. so I could "get a man". When I was young and had crushes, my mom's suggestion to make them like me back was always grossly age-inappropriate and highly sexual. If I didn't want to do sexual things, "you know... he might leave you if you don't". If a boyfriend treated me poorly, it was because of something I'd done, I was "putting him through hell", or "that's just how men are". If a woman was divorced or a man abused her or cheated on her, it was always her fault. I knew a woman in her 60's who was twice divorced and not exactly financially stable anymore, and my mom's comment was "you see, that's why you NEVER divorce - you'll end up like her, and it'll be all your fault". If a man was divorced, her reaction was always "and I bet she was one of those prissy little princesses who doesn't value a hard-working man!". My mom seemed to really like all of my abusive boyfriends and the first one she really, really rejected was my husband - literally the only man I've been with who was nice to me.

Once, I ended a long-term relationship with a man who was almost 30 years old and I was 17 years old when we started dating (my mom thinks I'm crazy for thinking this is abnormal now). I worked overtime so he could sit around, he refused to even do anything like prepare a meal or do laundry. My mom genuinely, 100% believed it was my responsibility to fly to where he lived now once a month so I could cook for him and do chores for him, "or he'd die, and it'd be all your fault, you know he doesn't know how to do those things for himself". I promise you that is how she said it. This is the one I "put through hell". When I found out he was also unfaithful, on top of everything else, my mom's response was "er... you didn't know?".

So... yeah. I don't really know what causes this. BPD? HPD? The narcissist dynamic doesn't really fit in my family... well, it fits, but one major thing throws it off: They're both this way. They don't even like each other, but they're both this way, which makes me think it's something else. They don't have a normal marriage but they have this weird dynamic of co-existing together that seems to work, in a very unhealthy way - but it's apparently how they both want it. The idea seems to be that the relationship is mostly transactional (man provides paycheck and woman provides domestic duties), you have to put up with men doing terrible things but they all do it so it's fine (and the ones who say they don't are lying), and it's your job to convince the man to stay around no matter what. Anyone who questions this is bad and daughters who don't want to live this way are being rebellious and "acting tough".

[Cat of the Canals]

They don't have a normal marriage but they have this weird dynamic of co-existing together that seems to work, in a very unhealthy way - but it's apparently how they both want it.

I suspect there's something for them in a relationship like this beyond the surface-level transaction. Drama. Never-ending drama. They enjoy arguing and bickering because it's just another source of supply for them. Having someone on-hand who will always take the bait in a manufactured fight is solid gold for a Cluster B.

[notrightinthehead]

I have lived in places where what you describe was the culture. Because of education and TV - mostly american movies and series - youngsters, often female, started to query the necessity of continuing this system. Men tried to bring them back in line by telling them : this is our culture. It was confusing for many because the old system no longer seemed acceptable, yet a new system suitable for many had not been found.
You clearly have found a set of values different to that of your parents. I congratulate you on having the freedom and the strength to choose. It also seems that you have chosen wisely and found a more flexible and accommodating system.

[Boat Babe]

They don't have a normal marriage but they have this weird dynamic of co-existing together that seems to work, in a very unhealthy way - but it's apparently how they both want it.

I suspect there's something for them in a relationship like this beyond the surface-level transaction. Drama. Never-ending drama. They enjoy arguing and bickering because it's just another source of supply for them. Having someone on-hand who will always take the bait in a manufactured fight is solid gold for a Cluster B.

"Solid gold for a Cluster B". lmao

[Andeza]

Solid gold indeed.

My uBPDm chose the bad boy and tried to make him settle down. I think so she could feed on the endless drama. That fell through as he became instead a thoroughly henpecked husband. So she went the route of medical drama for the most part, whilst also complaining to me constantly about stuff that wasn't age-appropriate, or appropriate period!-regarding dad.

The idea of getting a man wasn't harped on, but I made the subject of boyfriends and potential husbands fairly unapproachable. I did not want to discuss any of that with her, because I knew she'd make it weird, and so I acted like I was never attracted to any boys/men at all. Then I went to college, made a bunch of friends, found my DH, and my parents were fairly out of the loop. Keeping a man was not really talked about either. I think uBPDm assumed that once the marriage license was official, there was no work to be done on the relationship anymore.

[Catothecat]

I can relate, cappy.  My mom is a narc, although not PD, yet this was also her belief--that any boy (or man) was better than none. 

This belief expressed itself in everything in my life, articulated or not.  Most of the time It didn't need to be articulate because I knew immediately when she criticized anything about me, or any of my friends, it mostly had to do with the potential to attract boys.  This belief turned into an obsession--the obsession that I would be an "old maid" and thus worthless. 

This while being in an abusive marriage because obviously an abusive marriage was better than none. 

I suspect her narcissism didn't allow her to see any truth beyond what she wanted to see.  The marriage may not have been any good, but keeping up appearances was more important.  She looked the other way when my father abused me and my brother because she knew that to interfere would be to anger my father and he might leave her--the worst thing that could happen.  She didn't respond to the abuse he heaped on her (all verbal, which was sufficient) for the same reason.  So yes, the marriage "worked" as long as she stayed in her lane, which she knew and which she did.  So, while I don't fully understand the dynamic in their marriage, I do understand that a fundamental part of it was my mother's need to defend herself against the truth and thus double down on the importance of having a man in your life.  She probably didn't really believe it (after my father died she started making comments causing me to suspect that) but chose to ignore her feelings in favor of her social presentation. 

[easterncappy]

They don't have a normal marriage but they have this weird dynamic of co-existing together that seems to work, in a very unhealthy way - but it's apparently how they both want it.

I suspect there's something for them in a relationship like this beyond the surface-level transaction. Drama. Never-ending drama. They enjoy arguing and bickering because it's just another source of supply for them. Having someone on-hand who will always take the bait in a manufactured fight is solid gold for a Cluster B.

Come to think of it, my parents do like drama. There was one situation which I never really understood until I started reading this forum.

My dad once ordered a bunch of... sexually explicit stuff, to be sent to me when I lived with them. He blamed it on "autofill", which was a lie because I never used his computer to order anything. Obviously, I was horrified, and showed it to my mom who was also horrified. What ensued was several hours of screaming, finger pointing, comforting my mom as she cried for a couple of hours, more screaming, promising he'd never do that again and he'd totally go to therapy and get better (I didn't even believe that back then), etc.

Now I know: He got off on the exhibitionism and shock, it was totally intentional, he wanted to manufacture a dramatic situation because they actually had a lot of fun that day, and the reason my mom conveniently forgot about it within a couple of days is because she normalized it in her mind and she really just had a blast doing all of that - she probably couldn't wait to do it again. And all of my suggestions about how to permanently put an end to the problem were starting to annoy her, why would she ever want that?

Anytime something bad happened in our family, you were allowed to talk about it, but not in any way where you suggested helping the person it was happening to, stopping the situation permanently, etc. because these situations were talked about because they were enjoyable - not because we thought they were bad and wanted to fix them.

[easterncappy]

I have lived in places where what you describe was the culture. Because of education and TV - mostly american movies and series - youngsters, often female, started to query the necessity of continuing this system. Men tried to bring them back in line by telling them : this is our culture. It was confusing for many because the old system no longer seemed acceptable, yet a new system suitable for many had not been found.
You clearly have found a set of values different to that of your parents. I congratulate you on having the freedom and the strength to choose. It also seems that you have chosen wisely and found a more flexible and accommodating system.

It's like the people on this board are psychic.

In the very rural areas of where we're from, there are some more "patriarchal" views of how things should work. Most of them have to do with domestic duties. None of them include normalizing child molestation or psychological abuse. Because I grew up in the US, for a while I thought that everyone back home must really bad "that bad" (I really wanted an explanation for why we weren't like "other families")... nope. Probably half of the people I associate with as an adult are from that general region of the world and not one of them behaves anything like my parents or extended family do. In fact, some of them are the strongest advocates in my life for "you need to stop talking to those psychos".

That being said, yesterday my mom decided to go on a rant where she heavily implied that I'm "rejecting my roots" and "rejecting our culture" and how she "doesn't like Americans" and "regrets ever moving here". None of that is true, I think she just knows it gets under my skin. I didn't bother arguing back. She barely knows any Americans, she can't make a fair judgment of them because despite living here, she only knows them from the TV, so "Americans" become this boogeyman she projects ideas she doesn't like onto and then gets mad about it. Plus, the fact of the matter is that Americans are a lot less likely to worship people over shared DNA than people from our culture are - she's right on that, and she hates that about them. She hates the idea because it implies that she has to be worth keeping around instead of being entitled to me and my children because she says so.

[easterncappy]

Solid gold indeed.

My uBPDm chose the bad boy and tried to make him settle down. I think so she could feed on the endless drama. That fell through as he became instead a thoroughly henpecked husband. So she went the route of medical drama for the most part, whilst also complaining to me constantly about stuff that wasn't age-appropriate, or appropriate period!-regarding dad.

The idea of getting a man wasn't harped on, but I made the subject of boyfriends and potential husbands fairly unapproachable. I did not want to discuss any of that with her, because I knew she'd make it weird, and so I acted like I was never attracted to any boys/men at all. Then I went to college, made a bunch of friends, found my DH, and my parents were fairly out of the loop. Keeping a man was not really talked about either. I think uBPDm assumed that once the marriage license was official, there was no work to be done on the relationship anymore.

Interesting.

I think that my mom really did, on some level, think "all men were like that"... but also, she loooved drama more than she loved anything else in existence. I imagine that boys from "normal families" didn't want anything to do with her odd behavior, her family's bad reputation, etc. and boys from families like ours were very drawn to her low self-esteem and submissiveness. But despite all of that... she wanted the drama. Even if nice boys from "normal families" were interested in her, she'd prefer the drama. It's really weird accepting that all of the times I comforted my crying mother, I got it all wrong - she got off on the drama so bad. She wouldn't have it any other way. She loved every second of it, including the tears, behind which was always 100% pure enjoyment of the situation at hand.

I've encountered the "once the marriage license is signed then that's the end of that" attitude too. Mostly in people from backgrounds where divorce is forbidden or has severe social consequences... why bother if the person can't leave anyway? I wonder if that's what happened in my family, especially in the earlier generations. Grandparents and beyond all have extremely loveless marriages, lots of infidelity and abuse, but no one's going anywhere. Lol

[NarcKiddo]

My mother totally brought me up to believe that a woman's job is to ensnare a man and that she is judged by the quality of the man she can ensnare. To that end she need not be a beauty but she must have sex appeal, dress in a sexually attractive (not streetwalker) way, and she must be good and enthusiastic in bed. The man will then shower her with money and all will be well.

[Hazy111]

Knew quite a few of i suspect PD women , who felt like this . Dated some as well.

Especially after separation/divorce/death of husband partner, the desperation of the "man hunt" as i called it. Being single was close to being labelled a paedophile drug dealer. Social pariah.

My own uBPD sister started dating her ex husbands best friend within a month of his death, regardless of the feelings of her children etc. 

I remember an earlier conversation with her about how proud she seemed to be that the school "player" had taken an interest in her daughter.  Not her grades or studies.

The narcissists self esteem comes from " without " not within. So for the superficial Borderline ( female narcissist) how attractive she is is everything. It makes her feel good. Loss of looks old age etc are dreaded. Hence plastic surgery, boob jobs, botox, the inflated lip nonsense fashion. (Does any man  find fish lips attractive?)

Then look at society and you see how common it is.  PD.  I smiled to myself when the #metoo movement took off and thought of all  the narc females that had to pretend they were never interested in mens approval. Sisters doing it for themselves.

Go on social media and see how many women inevitably ( some very intelligent) post glamorous revealing photos of themselves compared to men for the "likes" and "retweets" # narcissisticsupply.  Im sure its all about "body positivity"  None of the men i follow seem the need to do this?

Fascinated to read in ancient Rome the statues of the emprerors wives had detachable backs of heads so the latest hairstyle could be installed without having a new statue commissioned.

[Cat of the Canals]

Especially after separation/divorce/death of husband partner, the desperation of the "man hunt" as i called it.

My own PDmom doesn't quite fit the archetype described in this thread, but I realized you just described my PDmil. She's on her third marriage. I don't know the dating history of her first husband (my husband's father), but I know that she met her second husband on the side of the road (really!) when he stopped to help her with a flat tire. She moved her (and her two young children) in with him within about 2-3 months of meeting him. On the side. Of. The. Road. Take a wild guess what kind of guy he was. 

She once "excused" moving in with this horrible ogre of a man by saying, "Well, I asked my parents if I could move back in with them, and they said no, so..."

Recently my husband and I were discussing Husband #3 and how long a gap there would have been between him and #2. I had imagined it must have been a year or two. Nope. More like a month or two. My husband's brother, I now realize, inherited this phobia of being single/alone from her. We went over his dating history for the last twenty years and realized he had rarely been single longer than a month.

[easterncappy]

I can relate, cappy.  My mom is a narc, although not PD, yet this was also her belief--that any boy (or man) was better than none. 

This belief expressed itself in everything in my life, articulated or not.  Most of the time It didn't need to be articulate because I knew immediately when she criticized anything about me, or any of my friends, it mostly had to do with the potential to attract boys.  This belief turned into an obsession--the obsession that I would be an "old maid" and thus worthless. 

This while being in an abusive marriage because obviously an abusive marriage was better than none. 

I suspect her narcissism didn't allow her to see any truth beyond what she wanted to see.  The marriage may not have been any good, but keeping up appearances was more important.  She looked the other way when my father abused me and my brother because she knew that to interfere would be to anger my father and he might leave her--the worst thing that could happen.  She didn't respond to the abuse he heaped on her (all verbal, which was sufficient) for the same reason.  So yes, the marriage "worked" as long as she stayed in her lane, which she knew and which she did.  So, while I don't fully understand the dynamic in their marriage, I do understand that a fundamental part of it was my mother's need to defend herself against the truth and thus double down on the importance of having a man in your life.  She probably didn't really believe it (after my father died she started making comments causing me to suspect that) but chose to ignore her feelings in favor of her social presentation.

(I might be confused but narcissism is a type of PD?)

Anyway, that's true. There are some things my mom did that hurt too much to get into, but the guy I dated when I was 17 and he was pushing 30, that was partly her idea. She originally freaked out when it involved me moving to where he's from (states away), but eventually, she was able to convince him to move to where we lived instead... then, she adored him. He treated me like I was less than human and she seriously once said "they should canonize him as a saint one day". When he categorically refused to look for work, leaving me to work 60 hour weeks with no shame, she said "well - I guess you'll just have to fill the applications out for him!". No sympathy. To this day, every bad thing he did was excused (usually "everything you did to that poor boy!") and if any of it was bad for me (after all - I just blow stuff out of proportion all of the time), it was "my fault because I chose him". It took her years to be able to admit to her friends that I stopped being with him, she was just so ashamed of the fact that I "failed" at a long-term relationship.

Women who were divorced or perceived as "spinsters" were considered barely human, from how my mom talked. My mom didn't consider herself an "abused woman", because to her abused women were weak people, and admitting that there was any abuse would imply a whole bunch of stuff she didn't want to deal with. And honestly, she loved it. Every second of it. She ate it up. Even when she was crying, she looked almost happy, nothing like women I've known who were in abusive relationships and hated it. I'm sure on some level it hurt, but the drama was too irresistible for her.

[easterncappy]

Knew quite a few of i suspect PD women , who felt like this . Dated some as well.

Especially after separation/divorce/death of husband partner, the desperation of the "man hunt" as i called it. Being single was close to being labelled a paedophile drug dealer. Social pariah.

My own uBPD sister started dating her ex husbands best friend within a month of his death, regardless of the feelings of her children etc. 

I remember an earlier conversation with her about how proud she seemed to be that the school "player" had taken an interest in her daughter.  Not her grades or studies.

The narcissists self esteem comes from " without " not within. So for the superficial Borderline ( female narcissist) how attractive she is is everything. It makes her feel good. Loss of looks old age etc are dreaded. Hence plastic surgery, boob jobs, botox, the inflated lip nonsense fashion. (Does any man  find fish lips attractive?)

Then look at society and you see how common it is.  PD.  I smiled to myself when the #metoo movement took off and thought of all  the narc females that had to pretend they were never interested in mens approval. Sisters doing it for themselves.

Go on social media and see how many women inevitably ( some very intelligent) post glamorous revealing photos of themselves compared to men for the "likes" and "retweets" # narcissisticsupply.  Im sure its all about "body positivity"  None of the men i follow seem the need to do this?

Fascinated to read in ancient Rome the statues of the emprerors wives had detachable backs of heads so the latest hairstyle could be installed without having a new statue commissioned.

Being single was worse than a pedophile drug dealer in my mom's mind. There were a million excuses for my dad being a pedophile, and no real shame around it, but when I ended a long-term relationship... she could not admit it to her friends for years. I already posted about it in here but man, she'd sooner admit that my dad is a child molester than that I "failed". Hell, the one time she sort-of left my dad for a little bit, she went right back to him. The shame was too strong. Divorced, single, and "spinster" women are less than human to her.

It was also weird how obsessed my mom was with her appearance - it was funny because she'd smoke a ton of cigarettes every day, and definitely looked older than she was... but she had at least a dozen anti-aging products in her repertoire. No offense to any smokers, it's just that the effects can't be cancelled out with anti-aging skin products lol. Most adults understand the risks of behavior they engage in but she apparently did not. She constantly fished for compliments about how "I look younger than I am, right? Right?". One time I said a woman was pretty in front of her, I could have been like 12, and she cried because she had nothing in common with that lady. She constantly put other women down, features she didn't have (hair/eye color, ethnicity, etc.) were inherently undesirable in her mind, and she needed to hear you put those women down too. She spent a ton of money and time on her appearance. When I was younger she made me dress up attractively to go to her workplace to "show off how good her daughter looks" (I still can't believe she convinced me to do that).

I also once had to beg her to please, pretty please, for the love of God - do not wear a see-through shirt with just your bra underneath. Please. She was so angry with me about it and didn't understand why I didn't want to go with her to an event where her underwear was visible.

[easterncappy]

Especially after separation/divorce/death of husband partner, the desperation of the "man hunt" as i called it.

My own PDmom doesn't quite fit the archetype described in this thread, but I realized you just described my PDmil. She's on her third marriage. I don't know the dating history of her first husband (my husband's father), but I know that she met her second husband on the side of the road (really!) when he stopped to help her with a flat tire. She moved her (and her two young children) in with him within about 2-3 months of meeting him. On the side. Of. The. Road. Take a wild guess what kind of guy he was. 

She once "excused" moving in with this horrible ogre of a man by saying, "Well, I asked my parents if I could move back in with them, and they said no, so..."

Recently my husband and I were discussing Husband #3 and how long a gap there would have been between him and #2. I had imagined it must have been a year or two. Nope. More like a month or two. My husband's brother, I now realize, inherited this phobia of being single/alone from her. We went over his dating history for the last twenty years and realized he had rarely been single longer than a month.

My mom had weird criteria for relationships. She thought there must be some "hack" to finding a "good man". "Oh, my aunt married an older man, and she was very happy with him, maybe that's the right way to go about it..." or "oh, I know a lady who married a man shorter than her, and he was very good to her, so it might be a good idea for you to date one...". Like, what? It's as if she believed there was some magic trick to dating besides "love each other, be mentally healthy, be a good fit, agree on major values and morals, never stop putting effort into your marriage". She thought I was unreasonable for only wanting to date men with the same values as me, but somehow some arbitrary quality like age or height was supposed to do the trick? Anyway, now my husband's height is a thing to ridicule because he is the only boyfriend I've had that didn't worship the ground she walked on, she thinks "that midget you married" is equivalent to when I tell her "please don't bring your child molester husband around me"... clearly, they're both just empty insults, right?

She also has a weird concept of whether people are good or bad. If a man stopped by the side of the road to help her with a flat tire, she'd be convinced he's an angel in disguise. Zero nuance or understanding of the fact that sometimes, bad people help you out, or good people can't help you out.

[moglow]

Sounds like a whole lot of black/white, good/bad absolute thinking going on with her. That's definitely part and parcel of PD extremist thinking. The issue with appearances, appealing to men etc? I'd guess some hard histrionic traits there as well, and maybe learned helplessness [the big strong man will fix things for her].

[easterncappy]

Sounds like a whole lot of black/white, good/bad absolute thinking going on with her. That's definitely part and parcel of PD extremist thinking. The issue with appearances, appealing to men etc? I'd guess some hard histrionic traits there as well, and maybe learned helplessness [the big strong man will fix things for her].

Yesterday she ranted about "those stupid American men" and how they "don't know how to fix things" - in her mind, my dad is a "real man" because he has a trade job, despite being an unfaithful child molesting alcoholic violent pervert, and my husband isn't a "real man", despite having a good moral character, because he doesn't have a "real man" job, even though he is handy. This is black/white thinking to a degree but also a coping mechanism because she desperately wants to believe she made a good choice by marrying my dad despite everything, and I made a bad choice by marrying the one guy she didn't like.

And she had a lot of learned helplessness, both that she applied to males and that she applied to me (I had to drive her around everywhere she wanted for 5 years because she just didn't want to, plus I had to pay her bills and translate things for her despite her being capable). It was always weird seeing my mom say stuff like "I refuse to change a tire". But she knew how, she just genuinely would rather be stranded all by herself than do that. It was beneath her. Like, I wouldn't want to have to do that by myself either but I'm not going to wait for a big strong man to come save me if I'm ever in that situation. Good grief. Why would I do that???

[Cat of the Canals]

I can relate, cappy.  My mom is a narc, although not PD, yet this was also her belief--that any boy (or man) was better than none. 

(I might be confused but narcissism is a type of PD?)


I think the other Cat (heh) is making reference to the fact that narcissism is a spectrum. Everyone engages in narcissistic behaviors, even us non-PDs. The further down the scale you are, the more likely you are to meet the criteria for a PD. My guess is that Cat is making the distinction that her mom is a narcissist, though perhaps not to the degree that she'd be diagnosed with a PD.

[Catothecat]

Yeah, exactly, fellow Cat    I've known plenty of narcs in my life who I'd never classify as PD because they don't exhibit enough of the other traits that define a PD.  They're definitely on the lower end of the spectrum and their overall behavior isn't the same as with a full-blown NPD (I've known several of those, too).

[easterncappy]

On a related topic, my mom always let my dad dictate her opinions... hate to say it, but my dad isn't a good candidate for that, at all. He's uneducated, he has poor critical thinking skills, and decades of severe alcoholism have definitely taken a toll on his brain. At times I genuinely think he's drank himself to mental retardation, but my mom thinks he's the most intelligent and wise person in her life.

Once, my mom saw a homeless woman with a toddler girl. It was wintertime. She felt bad, so we got them some burgers and fries off of the dollar menu. She ranted about how sad it it, how cruel the world is, how she feels bad for the little girl. She even cried for them.

When we got home, she told my dad about it. Then she went to me, and said "you know - your dad told me that woman was drunk. I can't believe she has money for alcohol but not food for her child! And like, why doesn't she have a man to take care of her or family to rely on?", and like that, she switched from almost cartoonish levels of "empathy" (or whatever the hell that was) to almost cartoonish levels of bitterness towards the woman and her child.

Plus, it was rich coming from my dad, the man who drank six beers before work every morning and drove me to school drunk. Yes, six - trash was taken out every night and there were six new empty cans in it by morning. He never saw this woman, but decided she was drunk. I know what a drunk person looks like, she wasn't drunk. And of course, the woman-blaming of how everything must have been her fault because she doesn't have a man to take care of her. I don't know her life story, and I never saw her again after that, but I'm not going to pretend to know either way what she's like. My mom projected a ton of good qualities onto her, and then a ton of bad ones, and neither extreme is normal.

It's like a bizarro freakshow mixture of black/white absolute thinking, being a narcissist, worshiping another narcissist, and God knows what else.