DH's self sabotage

[Pepin]

I was hoping that after CN MIL's death that DH would start seeing things more clearly.  And perhaps he will.  At the moment, I am realizing that he actually has gone backwards, even though overall he has been better behaved with our children.  On his own time however.....ugh.  As they say, when the cat is away, the mice will play.  And that is interesting because it works both ways.  When DH is gone, the house is calm, peaceful and "normal".  What he does when he is gone though is another matter....and he has been lying to me about it.  He is acting out exactly as I would expect an enmeshed son to do after the death of his mother by behaving in a self destructive manner.  Clearly he is engaging in un marriage worthy things.  The signs are there.....I know.  And I even saw some receipts he tried to hide - and texts.  I don't know what I am supposed to do.  He needs help -- but if I bring it up he will become defensive and accuse me of being the problem -- that I drove him to do what he does.  Of course I know this is not true because we are all responsible for our own behavior.  I could have easily become a horrible person after a traumatic childhood and taken it out on everyone around me - but, I couldn't -- I would never do what was done to me.  DH on the other hand, has gone the opposite direction with me and our family in tow.  Our children would be devastated to know about his lying behavior -- but at the same time I am sure they have a pretty good idea that it is indeed possible.  They have already resented him for many years due to his relationship with CN MIL and I doubt that can be mended easily unless he can admit and apologize for it.  Knowing him though, he probably won't unless something drastic like an illness or accident happens or someone else close calls him out on it. 

Ugh.  I am so frustrated to be in this situation at this moment in my life.  I am tired of all the PD garbage I have had to deal with from literally birth until now.  I want it over and done with.  I don't know if I want to move forward with my husband and spend the rest of my life with someone that lies to me.  I wish someone would catch him and call him out.....it is the only way this will stop.  Otherwise, I leave.  And the kids will always side with me.  Because they saw almost everything that I saw.

[Empie2204]

Pepin,
I am so sorry that things go in that direction.
And I am sorry to see that this is a pattern.
Unfortunately, my experience after my MIL's death resembles yours: h or better say son started losing ground.

I mean, all people have to deal with their parents' deaths, mourning is a process we all have to face. It differs in its length or intensity but most people get through it without significant damage, be it for them or for close ones. Only when a parent-child relationship is enmeshed and toxic, then the remaining member of the "team" goes down.

I understand you're tired and I believe this is at the same time the beginning and the end of one process. You are stating and questioning a lot of things, giving them names, and seeing their effects.
Sometimes it is necessary to weigh and see which option brings fewer casualties.
Stay strong!

[Call Me Cordelia]

I'm so sorry, Pepin. If I recall correctly this is not new behavior. You've posted before about icky friends of his that encourage it? But perhaps now that MiL is gone the urge to bury himself in this is stronger and maybe he doesn't care about hiding it so much anymore.

The most important people in this mess are the innocent ones. The kids, certainly. And remember the 51% rule too. You get to care about yourself a little more, and it's actually your responsibility.

It's absolutely inappropriate that your kids have been exposed to evidence of their father's sexual infidelity. If he is going to DARVO you about it, and I think your belief in that is well-founded given the pattern, it's down to you to remove your girls from that and model good boundaries. And be the source of peace at home, which you're noticing is easier in your H's absence. Which has been the case for a long long time. Sigh. I'm so sorry. You deserve so much better.

Our children would be devastated to know about his lying behavior -- but at the same time I am sure they have a pretty good idea that it is indeed possible.  They have already resented him for many years due to his relationship with CN MIL and I doubt that can be mended easily unless he can admit and apologize for it.  Knowing him though, he probably won't unless something drastic like an illness or accident happens or someone else close calls him out on it. 

This whole thing stands out enormously. Wow.

If I remember your family goes to church? Even if you aren't religious, our Lord's instructions on calling out a fellow believer seems very wise in this sort of situation. It's reasonable and clear when you've done what can be expected of you. (Matthew 18:15-17)

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

This looks like a clear path from setting the boundary that you will not accept infidelity/will not have a sexual relationship until this is healed, to the point of dropping the rope and leaving. You have the right to expose him in the interest of your family and the vows he made to you, in my opinion, if that is a point of worry for you. I hope my thoughts are helpful. This community is here for support!

[bloomie]

Pepin - I am so sad to hear this latest disrespectful and harmful behavior on your H's part. He seems to be making a huge mess of his life, floundering around, lying poorly it would seem, covering up just enough to make your head spin and to gaslight you, waiting for someone to 'catch him' and provide structure and limits that he alone is responsible for establishing for himself.

It seems you may be living with a man who has no idea who he is.

I know you know this, but it never hurts to have someone backing you up - you and your girls need an emotionally safe, reasonably mature, accountable and honorable husband and father. This mess your H is making... it is his responsibility to clean it up. Not yours to absorb or live with the ugliness of it all.

Whatever relationship decisions you decide to make in the face of this latest with your H make sure they position you and your kiddos to live and function as optimally as you can. Your kids are also witnessing your ability to love yourself well in the face of betrayal and dishonorable behaviors from their father.

I am so sorry this piling of pain upon pain is continuing.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hey Pepin, popping back in because it occurred to me that what I wrote about Matthew could have read as if I think that's the only way to handle this. You decide when and if your point of no return has been reached, or if in your situation you don't have trustworthy others to intercede, etc etc.

I agree 100% with Bloomie. He is responsible for him.

[Pepin]

It seems you may be living with a man who has no idea who he is.

Correct.  If he doesn't want to behave like an honorable husband, why did he ask me to marry him?  And a father?  Why didn't he spend his free time with his children instead of his mother?  Because she is needier?  Hardly.  She was playing the waif, to confuse him.  She wanted to keep him from knowing he was by manipulating and denying him.

I missed the signs...so many red flags.  And now I'm stuck dealing with an immature, liar of man.  It's like he has another life on the side - which is exactly how he treated me with the relationship he kept with his mother, always keeping one foot planted on her side.  It makes sense that he would continue to do the same with me now....hold me at arm's distance while he goes off and plays wingman...

I can't change him and I'm not going to try.  But.  I will mop the floor with him and he will lose everything.

[escapingman]

Pepin, your story reminds me a lot of when FIL died and my wife's behaviour both before and after. When he was still alive, his overt narc behaviour and angry outbursts kept all others behaviours mostly in the dark and in place. There were lots of red flags looking at my wife's behaviour, but after the passing of FIL she became so much worse. She could no longer hide her own issues behind his behaviour, and I also think she was set free by his death to act out on her emotions making her much much worse in her own narcissism. If your husband doesn't realise what he is doing pretty quick and change, I would guess it is because he is a PD himself or at least have to many traits of it to save himself. If that is the case, please save yourself and stop hoping for a change that won't come.

My thoughts are with you.

[Pepin]

Pepin, your story reminds me a lot of when FIL died and my wife's behaviour both before and after. When he was still alive, his overt narc behaviour and angry outbursts kept all others behaviours mostly in the dark and in place. There were lots of red flags looking at my wife's behaviour, but after the passing of FIL she became so much worse. She could no longer hide her own issues behind his behaviour, and I also think she was set free by his death to act out on her emotions making her much much worse in her own narcissism. If your husband doesn't realise what he is doing pretty quick and change, I would guess it is because he is a PD himself or at least have to many traits of it to save himself. If that is the case, please save yourself and stop hoping for a change that won't come.

My thoughts are with you.

Thank you for this...I realize the same -- that he can no longer hide his issues behind his mother's past behavior.  We finally talked today but I gave no information other than that I was broken.  I didn't tell him what I knew nor that it was him that was the crux of it -- because I knew he would become defensive.  All he knows is that I know what I wasn't supposed to know.  And of course he played dumb about it...in fact, he didn't even move or show any sort of empathy when I broke down in tears.  He didn't care to console me. 

The other day I caught sight of a text of his where he was telling this icky friend of his that I am in a funk and probably am on my period which means he won't be getting any.  FFS!  Do people talk about their sex lives like this?  I don't talk to my girlfriends about this and they don't do the same with me.  Is this a guy thing or a PD thing?  I am absolutely disgusted.

[lkdrymom]

There is only so much a person should be expected to take.  When my 1st husband admitted he was cheating it destroyed me.  From that moment forward he was dead to me.  It totally upended my life as I never saw it coming.  I trusted him.  The next year was awful but you come out so much better in the end.  Now I've been married to a man for 21 years who respects me. The kids are thriving and out on their own.  I let them make their own decision about my ex and by the time they were 18 they wanted nothing to do with him.

[moglow]

So you have access to texts/messages and receipts - Have you considered getting screenshots and sending to yourself, get copies of the receipts? Then at some point when you've had time to look through them sit down, look him dead in the face wit:h "I need you to explain to me why this is remotely acceptable, how you can justify this." And wait. Let him be who he is while you take it in for whatever it's worth. So he gets defensive. Angry. Tries to brush it off? If the shoe were on the other foot, wouldn't he demand answers of you? And wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable if he did? Don't you feel you'd owe him an explanation for your breach of trust? How does it serve you or your marriage to just let this pass, and keep on letting it pass?

Don't answer any of this. Just think about what you want, what is possible for you and your marriage. He doesn't have that mama buffer anymore, and this really may be who he is. Granted, grief doesn't exist on just one plane, it looks different for each of us - but there are limits even there. That can't be used to excuse any of this, not if you're to continue on. You need your partner if it's to work.

[square]

I am feeling for you, this is very hard.

I wonder if you're feeling shell shocked - too much to take in.