She wants me to come visit

[Sojourner17]

All summer my unpdm has been trying to coordinate with me a visit.  We live an almost 12 hour drive away from them and have lived that far for almost 5 years.  At first I thought that something could be coordinated but I was doing it more out of guilt and obligation. 

We met my parents halfway this past spring for a weekend at some cabins.  We felt it would be best to be in a neutral setting.  It went fairly well but there were a few hiccups here and there.  Nothing too drastic or dramatic... well a little dramatic... mom was upset at me when I abruptly ended our conversation the first night as my husband wanted us to get our young children to sleep. 

Since that time my husband went overseas to visit his family (it's been almost 5 years since he has been able to go) and was gone for almost a month.  I took care of things and our 3 boys.  It was hard in many ways but we got through and my husband had a wonderful trip.  The only thing my mom and dad said to DH was "I bet you missed your family and are glad to be home".  My unpdm likes to make things all about me when it comes to my husband.  She believes his focus should be always on me and my needs but it's in a misguided, weird, uncomfortable way.  More like a he's the parent I'm the child way.  Does that make sense?  It gets strange and confusing. 
Shortly after that she started on me regarding meeting up to go camping.  They have a tent for us,  we could pick the spot, when could it happen?  We want to see our grandkids and have missed so much of their lives already. We could do it on a weekend that DH has a day off, we could bring your niece so the grandkids have someone to play with. I would tell her that I needed to talk to DH about it and it would become have you talked to DH? When will you talk to him?  How come you haven't talked with him yet?  I started feeling as if unpdm was thinking there was something wrong with my marriage as she started probing in that direction and her tone of voice changed. 

I talked with her again this weekend.  She brought up having a visit again.  She has told me that coming our way is too far as they are both in their 70's and my dad is almost 80.  They don't like to drive that far anymore, dad doesn't like driving in the mountains. Etc.  I told her that it doesn't look like it is going to work for us as we have a lot going on and a lot of unknowns with my husbands work.  I gave her too much information regarding that and she started going into the whole "you should move back home" dialogue (another of her favorites). I told her that this is our home. We will not be moving.  But gave her more ammunition again by saying that it doesn't matter where we go the problems we are facing would still be there.

She wears me down.  I start feeling anxiety, I start over explaining, over reasoning, or go into flight, fight, or freeze mode.  Then I start feeling guilty because I don't want to feel forced or obligated to see my parents.  The last texts she sent me were that she looked into coming for a month and they can't afford that (they would have to stay at an Airbnb... we have a very small house and no extra room).  Then she said if she sent me the rest of the money she was going to give me could we come?

She used the term rest of the money.  There is a back story here.  A few times she has told me she was going to send me money the equivalent to what they have given my sisters over the years... to make it fair.  She said she would do this this summer and a week later said she wasn't comfortable sending the whole amount as she has always had to scrimp to get by and said it would be more fun if she sent it bit by bit and that I would enjoy it more because I wouldn't know when it would be coming.  I've not seen any of this money and wish she would have never even mentioned it.  It's caused a lot of emotional turmoil. 

I showed my husband the most recent texts.  He is NOT very happy with my parents and it has been a source of stress in our marriage as he thinks I don't keep to boundaries.  I try but she just wears on me and it wears me down.  Other than cutting contact back even more than we have it with my mom I'm not quite sure what to do.  She's not going to change.  She doesn't respect boundaries.  When she doesn't get her way right when she wants it she can be cutting and hurtful and pulls out all the stops in regards to manipulation, fear, obligation and guilt to get her way.

She's been love bombing as well.  Mostly about my faith (something I hold very dear), homeschooling and now money.  It's so confusing dealing with her regarding these things.  I feel like I have to be very careful and like I'm walking through landlmined that I could detonate or like I might trigger something with a slow fuse that will blow up unexpectedly at some future unknown date. 

I think she feels a lot of anxiety over her family not looking like what she wants it to look like.  I know she harbours resentment over us not getting together like she sees her friends families getting together.  She's pretty much told me as much. She harbours resentment over my choosing to walk out my faith in another way.. but she has no ability to look at these things from my point of view. if I point it out to her she says something like "move home, or isn't the faith you grew up in good enough for you? Why are you choosing to express your faith that way? You are alienating your friends and people around you. Your friends and family are scared to talk to you because of what you believe.  I'm worried that you can't develop and keep long term friendships.  If you treat your friends like you treat me no wonder they don't call as much".  I give her too much fodder and she uses it on me. It's exhausting and even though I know I give her too much information I'm not sure how to stop when it's in the moment.

I've decided we will not be going to see them this Fall.  I'm not sure how to tell them without giving too much information that can and more than likely will be used against me at a future date.  I wish I could break free and be okay with myself but it's hard not to care what they feel and think.  Does this make any sense?  How have you handled this type of behaviour?  I think I need to look at the toolbox again. 

[SunnyMeadow]

her family not looking like what she wants it to look like.  I know she harbours resentment over us not getting together like she sees her friends families getting together.  She's pretty much told me as much. 

Bingo! I think appearances play a big part into wanting to get together so much. That plus it provides some drama and something to gossip to others about later. My mother liked to blame my husband for a lot of things and cut him down in small ways to me. It was designed to put doubt in my mind about him. Sounds like your mother might be doing this in a backhanded way. My dh was an easy target because it was never to his face, it was said to me.

Maybe start talking about a visit next spring. Put it in her mind that the rest of the year won't work. Do you guys go see them for winter holidays? I hope not. I had to start getting mad in order to hold firm to my boundaries. It made me mad that my mother didn't HEAR me and ignored what I was telling her because it's simply all about her and what she wanted. The money thing you mentioned would seriously make me angry at her.  How dare she dangle that in front of you and then say...Nope not doing it. And this was the amount already given to your sisters and yet she's not sending it to you. That's just plain mean.

So getting angry is how I started putting boundaries in place. Then I used medium chill, gray rock and observe don't absorb to get through short visits with her. Don't talk to her so much, start being VERY busy    Cut phone calls shorter and shorter each time.

[Cat of the Canals]

I've decided we will not be going to see them this Fall.  I'm not sure how to tell them without giving too much information that can and more than likely will be used against me at a future date. 

Definitely check out the toolbox, especially the Medium Chill guide.

Don't beat yourself up too much for the accidental JADEing. It happens to all of us. There are two things that have helped me a lot. The first is telling myself before every phone call that my mother is on an "information diet." She is not a friend I gab with. I do not give unnecessary information on my life, unless I have already deemed it a "safe" topic. My husband is always "fine." His parents are "fine." Certain friends of my are "fine." Work is "fine." Etc. No other information is given. Those topics you know she's keen for details on? Be BORING. Your life, as far as she is concerned, is unseasoned oatmeal.

The second thing that helped is becoming comfortable with the idea that if I have to be a broken record about boundaries, then so be it. They know it makes us uncomfortable to "always" say no and "always" have to come up with an excuse. It feels rude. Well, the reality is that they are being rude by constantly pushing our boundaries.

So I imagine what the conversation will be like and come up with my script for what I'll say:
Mom: So are you coming to visit?
Me: It's not going to work out this fall, unfortunately.
Mom: Why not?
Me: It just isn't.
Mom: Then when?
Me: I'm not sure.
Mom: I can't believe you're not coming to visit your family!
Me: Yeah, it's too bad.

You can go around and around forever without giving any information they can use against you if you remember these handful of phrases:
It's just not going to work out.
Sorry, but no.
I don't know.
I'm not sure.
I'll have to get back to you.
That's too bad.
I know you're disappointed.

Embrace being a broken record!

I'd personally avoid mentioning a specific time (like next spring) you "might" visit, per SunnyMeadow's post, unless you're actually considering visiting then. If you want to put the rest of the year off the table, then you can say something like, "It's not going to happen this year, I'm afraid." My pdMIL in particular hears phrases like "maybe next spring" and believes it is a promise. "BUT YOU SAID NEXT SPRING!" So we now always avoid giving specifics. Always be as vague as possible. "Sometime in the future." "Someday soon." "When our schedule is less full."

[Starboard Song]

She wears me down.  I start feeling anxiety, I start over explaining, over reasoning, or go into flight, fight, or freeze mode.  Then I start feeling guilty because I don't want to feel forced or obligated to see my parents.  The last texts she sent me were that she looked into coming for a month and they can't afford that (they would have to stay at an Airbnb... we have a very small house and no extra room).  Then she said if she sent me the rest of the money she was going to give me could we come?

I try but she just wears on me and it wears me down.  Other than cutting contact back even more than we have it with my mom I'm not quite sure what to do.  She's not going to change.  She doesn't respect boundaries. 

I feel like I have to be very careful and like I'm walking through landlmined that I could detonate or like I might trigger something with a slow fuse that will blow up unexpectedly at some future unknown date. 

I think she feels a lot of anxiety over her family not looking like what she wants it to look like.  I know she harbours resentment over us not getting together like she sees her friends families getting together.  She's pretty much told me as much.

I give her too much fodder and she uses it on me. It's exhausting and even though I know I give her too much information I'm not sure how to stop when it's in the moment.

Does this make any sense?

Run to the Toolbox!
Then run to the Boundaries page!
And then the JADE page!

Your post makes TONS of sense. You are neither alone nor foolish. This is actually hard stuff. And PDs are rare, if that's what you are dealing with, so people don't understand them.

Boundaries can be really hard when someone is in the house with you, or you can't control the interaction. In your case, really focus on this: Boundaries do not control other people. Boundaries are an expression of what we will or will not do, or engage in. Thebest boundaries can be enforced without resorting to a nuclear option. On good days, we just DO our boundaries.

That means saying, "Mom, I don't want to discuss that anymore. I understand your interests in being closer. How's your garden doing?" And on a second pass by her, "Mom, as I said, I really will not discuss that anymore. I can see you want to discuss it, so I'm going to let you go for today and we'll talk again soon."

Sadly, you are also learning that horrible part: withdrawing more and more important topics off the table to avoid her negativity. That hurts so much, and my heart breaks for you. We've been there with my MIL.

All three of these books from my signature are appropriate for you. Healing From Family Rifts, by Sichel   |  Stop Walking on Egshells, by Mason    |    Emotional Blackmail, by Susan Forward .  One of those talks about family myths. A family myth may be that "Uncle Henry was never a drunkard until the accident." Or, "we have our problems but really come through for each other when it is important." Or whatever. Your mom has a family myth she is trying to protect. When you do things differently, or she finds you far away, it tears at the family myth, and that hurts so she strikes back.

Work on those boundaries. Remember, we enforce our boundaries with confident kindness. You aren't angry: you just aren't going to discuss it. "Well why not? Don't you realize how much happier you'd be if you lived back here?!?" Your response is calm and you never ever JADE. "As I say, Mom, I won't discuss that anymore. I'm gonna let you go now."

Good strength to you. This isn't easy. It is hard.

[moglow]

    Start with what our friends above have shared. Read it a couple times and let it start easing in. Revisit boundaries and the toolbox etc.  These things didn't start and won't resolve in a vacuum [other than the one trying to suck the life out of you]. Your mother/parents' wants arent *needs*, and you don't have to jump every time instructed. Remind yourself that you're an adult, a wife and mother and that's where your responsibilities start. You aren't responsible for fixing things for your mother. I'm sorry she's disappointed but it's still not yours to fix. Tell me, if you were able to do all she demands and coerces and guilt trips etc, would she be satisfied? I suspect not, or you wouldn't be in this position.

When she doesn't get her way right when she wants it she can be cutting and hurtful and pulls out all the stops in regards to manipulation, fear, obligation and guilt to get her way.

She's been love bombing as well.  Mostly about my faith (something I hold very dear), homeschooling and now money.  It's so confusing dealing with her regarding these things.  I feel like I have to be very careful and like I'm walking through landlmined that I could detonate or like I might trigger something with a slow fuse that will blow up unexpectedly at some future unknown date. 

Just a thought: you don't have to "deal with her" on ANY of these issues. You don't - your marriage, family, finances, faith, health are all YOURS and you don't have to discuss any of it with her. She can feel however she feels, think whatever she thinks, and life goes on. She wants to be ugly to you in response to not getting her way? Fine. Not.Your.Stuff. Really, it's not. That's her wagon and she can pull it wherever she wants. You don't have to lift a finger or offer any kind of justification, argument, denial or explanation [JADE]. EVER. Let me back up - unless and until you tell her you will do abc on xyz, you don't owe any explanation. Even then, plans can change. Things fall through. This or that is simply no longer possible, sorry for the inconvenience.

I'm not even saying be rude or caustic about it - be brief, informative, friendly and firm. It is what it is and all her complaints and/or snippiness won't change it. Yes, it means you may have to cut conversations shorter and shorter, stop giving her any information you don't want God and everybody to hear or alternately have thrown back in your face in some unguarded future moment. If she's like mine - and I do see some of it - there's not a whole lot of safe room where you can simply be accepted just as you are. The inquisition is in session!

She's not going to understand your reasoning and you don't have to try to explain yourself. She wants what she wants and is used to pushing until she gets it. Your boundaries, whether stated or not, are yours to protect and defend. She doesn't have to respect them, you do. She doesn't have to listen, you do. Learning to live your boundaries isn't necessarily easy but I guarantee it's better than this going over this with her. "We won't be coming to visit this fall and aren't making plans beyond that." is a complete sentence. Her questions don't have to be answered just because they are asked - you already answered. Same question asked multiple times or different ways doesn't provide new answers. She'll survive.

[Sojourner17]

Thank you all for the responses.  I'm going to definitely go back into the toolbox and the other areas you suggested.  I was able to find the Emotional Blackmail book and started reading it the other day. 

It is really hard.  I struggle a lot with the whole honouring parents, how I should do this as a believer type thinking.  Right now I'm thinking about what I would do if this behaviour was coming from an acquaintance or a friend.  I'd back away and not engage with them at all outside of being polite if I ran into them out in public.  If it were an aunt or uncle or cousin... I would do the same.  Back out and be polite in public (because there would be no private meetings).  I wouldn't text them or call them. 
It's different for some reason when it's a parent.  Even if the relationship is damaged or weird or dysfunctional.  I don't want a dysfunctional relationship, and I can't have a healthy relationship (that takes two doesn't it?) so I'm left in the hinterland/wilderness/grey borderland trying to navigate through something that is... well right now I'm not sure what it is other than uncomfortable and full of grief, anger, resentment and profound sadness. 

I'm not responsible for my mothers feelings but I know she is feeling or would say she is feeling the same way.  I hate that because I know my ability to verbally state boundaries and what I want or do not want is lacking.  Yet I guess not saying anything at all is still a boundary too, albeit a pretty poor one.  I'm a chicken when it comes to verbalizing my boundaries because I know the fallout that comes from it and how painful that fallout is and how damaging that fallout is to an already precarious relationship. 

All this writing to say... I obviously have more work to do on myself and holding to boundaries.  I will keep on trying and learning and growing because there is no going back. 

[moglow]

We pretty much all have more work to do, and some days it's more work than others. It sounds good on paper to state our boundaries, trying to be clear and open about how their behavior translates and how we will handle that going forward. Problem is - there are parents who don't want to hear it. They *won't* hear it. They'll turn it around on us as yet another instance where we've supposedly let them down or showed disrespect, etc. Too many shut us out as has been done too long already, seeing as them being "right" simply because they are the parents. They choose to not recognize us as fellow human beings who simply deserve better.

Part of my "honoring" my mother is my refusal to keep doing this to myself and thereby, her. I'm choosing to not engage and retaliate by spewing my ugly side all over her, regardless of how she's treated me all my life. I've tried tuning it out, "turning the other cheek" and every other thing that's been suggested over the years. You know what? Nothing changed, she continued to look for nonexistent problems. She'd ramp up even higher in her efforts to force some ridiculous reaction from me so she could "SEE how you talk to me??!"

You deserve better, Sojourner.

[Sojourner17]

Again thank you for the very helpful responses.  I am going to text her a brief text saying that it's been a busy week with swimming lessons, the boys passed their level and enjoyed it.  Then I'm going to say it won't work for us to go that way as there is a lot going on and we start school next week. 

I'm trying to keep the anxiety at bay (anxiety over letting her texts sit unanswered this long and anxiety over what May come from responding now) but think that sending the text would be the adult thing to do, regardless of what she chooses to do with it. 

I guess I'm still feeling like I need to give at least a bit of explanation as to why we won't be coming.  To be honest this time of the year is the busiest for us with getting ready for winter, homeschool, some holidays etc. and it can really take a toll when there is not a lot of support or when there is emotional strain.  I'm pretty strong but sometimes the little things are the things that break/stress me the most.  Lol,  I think I'm doing some justifying right here right now. 

It's sometimes so hard standing on your own.  I think it's fairly human to want to have people in your corner.  I just hope that someday I will be better equipped to see the differences in my want/need of that support and my moms drive/want/need of that support. 
Sorry if this message is kind of all over the place.  I get typing and all this stuff/thoughts come spilling out.

[Jolie40]

  She has told me that coming our way is too far as they are both in their 70's and my dad is almost 80.  They don't like to drive that far anymore, dad doesn't like driving in the mountains.  The last texts she sent me were that she looked into coming for a month and they can't afford that (they would have to stay at an Airbnb... we have a very small house and no extra room).

I believe it is up to grandparents to visit as they have the time & can spend some $ to visit

our next door neighbors are 70 & 76.....they are in Europe now, always traveling, and go to see the grandkids
their kids rarely visit cause they work/raising their kids

your parents could fly out & stay at a hotel
if they really wanted to see the grandkids, they would do it
don't let them try to manipulate your family into visiting them!

it's much easier for grandparents to visit & don't let them sway you

[Sojourner17]

So after talking it over some more with my husband I told mom we couldn't come at the end of a FaceTime call.  I literally just got off the call with her ten minutes ago. 

I told her that with everything going on here, starting up school, and things that I can't make a trip out there.  She had texted again earlier today that they can't come now bc they are helping my sister with childcare.  So she asked if I could come out for a few weeks and do school out there. 

I knew she was going to be upset and it was so hard seeing her cry.  She said that I shouldn't have moved so far away and that it wasn't fair to them.  They had an opportunity to move out this way but they didn't take it bc they didn't want to leave their parents/family.  If I wanted to come I could bc the kids are homeschooled.  They could learn and have experiences there where they couldn't have them where we are. 

I just for the most part held my tongue but said that I'm sorry she is feeling bad but we can't do it this Fall.  That this is our home now.  Then I said that I had to go. 

I feel jittery and sick.  I feel kind of like a coward and pretty awful because I knew going into the call that it had to be short as they had plans to go for supper. 

This is so hard! 

I told my husband a coles notes version bc we don't want the kids to hear.  He's angry. 
I can't seem to access anger.  I feel sick, sad, jittery and ready to cry but I need to compose myself bc it's time for supper. 

This is awful.

[Sojourner17]

Just want to say,  my comment about this being awful isn't in a catastrophic way as in it's the end of the world.  It's awful as in how disordered this is.  As in, how do things move forward?

As in, me trying to hold my place knowing that this interaction, as much as it was expected, was still an emotional slap in the face. Knowing that I would feel bad if my kids said they couldn't come to see me but that more than likely, hopefully, I would say that I was disappointed, but that I understood and that I hoped it would work at a future date.  Perhaps I would even cry after getting off the phone.  But awful as in I have to hold my own, hold my place, in the face of what may be (and was) said my way. I won't get the response I would (hopefully) give.  I may never get that response. 
That's what's awful.

[Cat of the Canals]

I feel kind of like a coward and pretty awful because I knew going into the call that it had to be short as they had plans to go for supper. 

You handled this really well, and you are NOT a coward. That being said, I know this feeling well. I hate not being able to have normal conversations with my mother. Having to think ten steps ahead so she can't back me into a corner when my guard is down. Not really being able to be fully honest or open with her.

It sucks. It's the unfortunate price we pay for being willing to have SOME relationship, versus NC. Because there really aren't any other options, other than being a doormat and giving into their every demand.

I also totally agree with Jolie40 that the onus to visit, assuming they are in good health, should be on the grandparents. Especially if they're the ones always demanding to see you.

IMO, it's a selfish and unrealistic request that you drag the kids on a vacation and homeschool there. Please don't discount how much work it is to homeschool on a normal day in your home... now imagine trying to do that when the kids are in "vacation mode." I imagine it'd be like trying to keep a homeschool schedule at Disney World.

My husband and I are self-employed and work from home, so both of our PDmoms seemed to feel this meant our schedules were "up for grabs." If anything, keeping to a tight schedule and working when we're supposed to is even more important for us, so their constant intrusions and demands were really frustrating to deal with. It's one of the reasons we moved away.

I know it feels bad to say "no" all the time. That's why they keep asking. They want to wear us down. Remind yourself that your mother is probably always asking YOU to be the one to put in a 110% in the relationship while putting in less than 50% herself. Always asking you to make concessions, to go the extra mile, while never doing the same.

[Andeza]

Oh honey, no you're absolutely NOT a coward. Your body is freaking out because it knows these conversations aren't safe and your parents aren't safe for you. You've got so much adrenaline and cortisol in your system right now, it's no wonder you feel terrible. I hope you're taking it easy today, to give yourself permission to rest and feel better as much as you possibly can.

Anger is a funny emotion. In a chronically unsafe environment, like growing up with PD parents, it's to be expected that you like so many others here turned off your anger response. Not because you wanted to, but because any time you showed so much as a hint of being upset growing up your parents likely shut it down hard. "Bad attitude" mine called it. So over time your body learned that anger is not a safe emotion, because it attacks the wrath of the PDs. PDs recognize anger as our earliest way of disagreeing with them and having our own opinion. Which is not allowed in PDland.

You're carrying a lot of guilt. Guilt put on you by other people for their choices. Your mother has chosen to push and poke and shove and hound you over coming to visit, and this has caused you to feel guilty. I feel it's important to recognize the truth. She says she wants you to come visit. Is that the truth? Or is it more likely somebody harmlessly asked "When's the last time Sojourner was out to visit?" or "When's Sojourner coming out for a visit next?" and now she feels like the perfect family facade is cracking around the edges?

[Sojourner17]

Cat of the Canals, Andeeza, and Jolie40. Thank you.  My suspicion is that unpdm got worked up after spending time with a family friend, her friends kids and grandkids this summer.  They all got camping spots at the regional park that we used to go to together when I was a kid.  We went there every summer for two weeks with this family friend growing up.  My suspicion is this brought up nostalgic memories and mom got worked up because now this family friend is continuing the tradition with their three grown up kids and their grandkids.  Mom doesn't have this with us grown up kids (my two sisters and I and the grandkids). Mom is very big on family tradition, religious tradition, etc.

She didn't come right out and say it but she amped up the come for a visit/get a tent and meet for camping  talk right around the same time this was happening this summer. 

Some of my fondest memories of growing up were these two weeks of camping every summer.  It didn't happen in my teens though. It probably stopped around the time I was 12 or so.  Lots of things changed around this time.  Sometimes it feels like I have had 2 different moms. One pre 12 years old, and the other after. Perhaps she was triggered with thoughts of the good times from when my sister and I were little (my third sister is 17 years younger than I and didn't have the same experiences as my other sister and I did).

Believe me. I know how hard homeschooling can be without the vacation mode that would be in place if I attempted to do it there.  It would be stressful and would disrupt the whole routine for more than just the time spent out there.  It's absolutely ridiculous to expect us to do it.  Nope... no can do!

My body has calmed down from after the call but it's still on edge and I can feel tension and strain in it.

I talked with DH about it.  He said I'm part of the problem because I'm not consistent with my boundaries on the phone and my boundaries seriously slip if I'm physically with my parents.  It was hard to hear that, but it's true. 

I need some time to think through what I want my boundaries to look like. I am thinking of using a physical timer to keep calls shorter when I do call and to help prompt me to wrap up the calls.  Much less likely for them to go sideways into no go territory that way.

So, Andeeza, yes, more than likely the family facade suffered yet another crack. 

My husband pointed out to me that in our whole relationship (3years dating, almost 10 years married) I've never been excited to go and see my family.   I kind of sat with that for a while and I think it could even be longer than that.  I don't think I've had the longing or excitement to see my family in my whole adult life.  Isn't that sad?