Playing the game

[bloomie]

escapingman - I hope I am right... this last post seems like a giant exhale. A beginning, a place of recognizing what you can change, can control, and releasing the death grip you have had on things you have zero control over. Whew!!!!

Your warrior instincts to protect your children from harm are worthy and full of valor. Totally understandable. What I know for myself anyway, is that even the most pure of motives can become distorted when my emotions are huge and controlling my thoughts and words. When I am approaching everything, or most things, as if they are of utmost urgency and are life and death. Because it truly feels that way. I get it.

The goal, the hardest part, imv is to find a way to face that you are co parenting with someone who has zero trouble doing and saying things no matter who it hurts that you would never, ever say or do. How to continue to press forward in a system that is unpredictable with a co parent who is not trustworthy and stay temperate, considerate, respectful, discreet, truthful and stand empowered in honor is your greatest life challenge. And from where I sit is the most important thing you can do for your dear daughters.

I recently came across a vid that talks us through emotional dysregulation. I found it fascinating and so helpful because when we are in a constant state of fear - as if we are facing a grizzly on our hike through the mountains - it is near impossible to access all parts of our brain and a lot of times our trauma responses engage and we fight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lZ2xTpNiqE

I wonder if you could shift your protective instincts out of fight and fear mode and into a calm state and use the energy those instincts give you to move into a more centered mode that acknowledges that fear might be taking the lead right now and it might serve you all if your higher self, you smart thinking self, your kind, respectful self could take the lead going forward?

In other words, you could choose to stop playing the game.

[vanillasea]

EM,

(<eta - I wrote this and hadn't seen you already stating all this yourself - so sorry!)

Have you considered completely backing off and taking a break to care for yourself? This isn't losing or giving up.. it is just holding out until stbx destroys it all (eventually).

You're on a plane and if you don't get oxygen quick you're not going to be able to help your daughters...

IMO as someone who had a BPD mother and an enabler dad - I just wanted peace. And for survival that meant placating my mother.

But my dad's anger over it all bled onto me and made things even worse. I used to wish they would divorce with every ounce of my being. And the worst was when he said he was afraid I'd end up like her. The worst. It felt like betrayal for him to even suggest it.

I'm not saying give up - but I am saying plan for the long term goal.

Sounds like the system might be going to fail you and that is frustrating. But if you work on healing you while your daughters navigate this new arrangement....who do you think is going to be the more attractive option to talk to?

They're old enough now they have their formative years done (1-7).

Also consider when our children are grown it's a possibility they have a PD and will you be able to protect yourself from one of them should you need to, or are you signing up for a lifetime of being a victim?

Believe me... my heart is aching over the loss of one roof and the illusion of CO parenting shattered. It's parallel from here on out EM. What world will you fashion for them within your control?

I guess what I'm trying to say is your girls are old enough to figure some things out for themselves in their own eyes....so you're going to have to let them.

What kind of father do you think they'd want?

A frantic and fearful wound up and abused guy? You read stop caretaking....maybe employ some of those things with everyone. Make some rules for yourself on how to protect your sanity and your center and then don't let anything rob you of that. Their girly hearts need to see true masculinity. Stbx can't give that to them. Ever. That's yours! Don't fail at that!

Go drive on a highway or someplace remote and scream in your car. Your body is storing so much acid right now while your pd isn't affected half as much because she likely doesn't feel true emotions you do. Worried about you, man.

She knows this game and she is going to exploit it.

Sounds to me like you're going to have to step back - take some self care and see where this leads you with some faith. Don't focus only on your worst nightmare...focus too on the alternatives that could happen.


To me it sounds like you're granting your stbx with plenty of supply as you're playing the game and she will beat you.  She makes the rules...and she dedicated her entire life to appearing harmless or not what people think - you bought it too before you knew better... it's her game. You win when you see it for what it is and get your own mind back.

Grey rock and being super boring and even just utilizing your time to enjoy your life (EM you aren't promised tomorrow and you could work yourself into poor health) GR and enjoying your free time will make stbx irritated. Right now you're giving her lifeblood giving her a narrative to disprove.

Couldn't you quit? Have you done everything within your power? Your best?

If you can quit and work on yourself and model health....eventually girls want their Daddy for protection when life gets ugly. It's unfortunate your ex has done this and will continue to do so. Let hers be hers. (Mistakes, ill intentions, lies, etc.)

They are trying to survive, EM. And they don't think long term at their age. They may be thinking tryouts friends clothing and boys. Movies,  etc....

Be that still voice they can go to when things get tough. Have wisdom and I'm not saying throw it all to the wind...but their mother is a wound like you don't even understand. I can speak to it.

I held much more fondness for my dad no matter what he did...but for her there was something in me that needed to MAKE her see me. And eventually I failed. I would in a heart beat talk to my dad if he wasn't with her. So you're ahead of that! You did what was necessary to say the abuse was not ok.

When I'm sick or things are overwhelming - I want mommy (even my horribly abusive mom).
When I'm down, scared, or I've found out I've been had - I want my daddy.

They're going to need you, EM. This may not be your main scene. So let PD make her bed and let her manipulate because you can't control any of that.

I'm worried for your health at this point.

If you stop the madness of this sea - they will have a safe place to aim for and it may take a few years..... be in it for when they are 25 and coming over for dinner and to tell you about their new career or friends EM.... you'll always be their dad and nobody can take that from you.  While they are young unfortunately courts can keep them away.

Right now that is all you can guarantee - that you are their father forever.

For me I came up with the worst of the worst scenario in my head and then asked myself what GOOD would I do with my life at that point. You may need to do something similar. If you lose it all....there is still life to live.

Even if you write a letter to each daughter and put it in a security box or something with a date on it explaining you aren't quiting on them but thinking more about the future and in good faith knowing you'll have a chance to tell them how hard you fought. Maybe some act like that can give you some peace.

Sending you some warmth. Hoping my comments are a balm not acid. These wounds are so delicate.

[escapingman]

I have so much more work to do on myself. I am working from home and today I spent almost all day listening to an audiobook about recovery and then some mindfulness listening to Lisa A Romano. I felt better, but then DD came home and told me stories about her sister and mum and how she feels. Following this we had this swap over activity that I really need to change, but going there knowing I would be near STBX for a few minutes, although in the car, my hearth started raising and I felt it pumping in the chest until it was over. DD has now asked me to move the times as she is so angry with them and is asking me why the social worker doesn't see what they are doing to her.

I am so stressed even though I am trying to back off a bit.

And to all of you, thank you for all support. I couldn't do it without you.

[escapingman]

DD has now been accused by STBX for being the bad girl and the social worker seems to believe it. DD doesn't want anything to do with her mum and sister now. Well played by the social worker, she even got angry with me for suggesting she got it wrong. I keep the details away from this as I don't want to reveal to much details but I am absolutely beyond belief how easy manipulated the social worker is.

[hhaw]

EM:

A friend's niece was abused by her sf with a recent conviction of the abuser.

My friend attended one of the final court hearings where she was surprised to see the victim and family walking into the courthouse with 4 bikers.  Yes, I wrote bikers, with vests and patches and they meant to appear as bikers.

One biker sat next to my friend and refused to scoot when asked to make room, bc he "needed to remain seated directly behind T", the child victim."

Those bikers split a lunch bill for 26 people then went back into the courtroom to take up positions of protection around T.

My friend said the bikers have gone to T's home and sat outside windows where T can see them during times T has been frightened and most vulnerable. 

My friend has shifted all charitable gifts to this amazing organization called BACA Bikers Against Child Abuse.  They're non profit, started up by a social worker who identified the gaps in the justice system and filled it with chapters all over the globe, including the UK, EM.

I read a little about contacting them.  The parent or organization will petition your attorney to be included then the child receives a very and patch, along with a promise to be kept safe as an official member of the BACA family.  One or 2 primary contacts are put in place for the child and try to always be available when possible for the child to feel safe and receive advocacy during hearings, etc.

Abuse includes sexual, physical AND emotional abuse to qualify a child. 

Reports if abuse should be in place and I think you've done that, EM.

If BACA can't help your ad, perhaps they have referrals, ideas, solutions OR contacts in your system WHO CAN.

Worth a little research, maybe.

[escapingman]

Thanks hhaw, I am getting desperate so prepared to try anything soon.

This is really taking a toll on my health, DD went hysterical and panicked yesterday when accused of being the abuser. I think I can make a formal complaint to the local authority as this social worker is making DD feel worse and not better.

[Associate of Daniel]

EM, something caught my attention in a couple of your posts and I'm not sure that I've read it correctly.

Did the social worker take your daughter in the car alone?

If so, is that allowed?.  It seems wrong to me.

As teachers we are told to not be alone with a student.  Surely that would be the same with social workers?

I wonder if that's something to be looked into.

AOD

[escapingman]

Thanks AOD, it's certainly something to look into - but I think it might have been allowed under the circumstances, however to unannounced arrange for DD to meet her mum with no advanced warning and not talking to me about it cannot be OK.

STBX has been given enough rope now for the social worker to see what is going on. DD hasn't complied to what STBX has demanded from her last weeks so now STBX has blocked DD on their messaging app. No normal parent would ever do this, so lets see what comes out of that but I doubt it will even be noticed. DD is obviously quite upset about it but at the same time relieved. What I find astonishing is that STBX is able to act so arrogant and entitled and to be frank wreck less and still not be seen as dangerous. That DD now want even less to do with her than immediately after the abuse is really a sign of her getting Out of the FOG herself and that she is not putting up with the charade anymore.

I myself need to pull myself out of this hole I have ended up in since last week when the stunt was done. I need to fight, but not be dragged in emotionally. I need to stick to facts, but it's so easy to get overwhelmed and then let emotions run away with me. 

[hhaw]

Wouldn't it be nice to have an "expert" witness forensic T BE your DD's advocate in this thing?

Someone neutral documenting the harm created by the sw AND the stbx who could EXPLAIN it clearly to the Judge?

[escapingman]

Wouldn't it be nice to have an "expert" witness forensic T BE your DD's advocate in this thing?

Someone neutral documenting the harm created by the sw AND the stbx who could EXPLAIN it clearly to the Judge?

I think I need the sw to be removed as a matter of urgency and not wait until a hearing to discredit her. On the next hearing I will not be allowed to bring in anyone either so it would not be until the final hearing which could be way into 2023. I now have a list of incidents where I don't think she has acted in the best way for DD, for example DD told me she keep telling her that her supervised meetings with GC is going to be done with a family member on STBX side. This is something I have already said I will never agree to and DD is panicking about this as she already knows that she would be put under pressure to fall in line.

I wrote in an earlier message that I was going to have to let go, but with the latest realisations I can't as that would only ensure both girls end up with STBX. But this is taking a toll on me, I really struggle with myself and my own emotions. I am not sure if this is because I am getting some distance to STBX but I am starting to get flashbacks. DD used one of STBX cups for a drink the other day and I almost went in to full meltdown as it triggered all anxiety of STBX being in the house.

There are lot's more to say, but I will keep that for now as I don't want to overshare.

[guitarman]

Other people don't understand about all the stress and trauma. Our minds go to the worse case scenarios because of what has happened before could become our reality again.

We can live in a total state of fear. It can become difficult to cope. Our minds and bodies living with trauma all the time.

I need to keep talking about my feelings and all the possible things that may happen as my mind is still on constant alert for danger. My mind is doing everything it can to keep me alive so it's difficult for me to relax and let go.

It's not surprising that you get triggered. It happens to me so often as well. What I try to do is say to myself that I am safe here in the now and that triggering event happened in the past. Sometimes it helps. I become aware of my breath and do box breathing. Our bodies can go into an alert state and our breathing becomes faster to get more oxygen into our muscles in case we have to run away or defend ourselves. It's a horrible state to be in.

I hope that you can get some support where you can discuss all your issues with others who understand. I've recently joined a men's carers group. So maybe that will be more helpful for me.

Be kind to yourself. You've been through so much trauma.

You are not alone.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

[escapingman]

Thanks GM, I am so caught up in the war right now so I am struggling with looking after myself. I am listening the audiobook divorce poison by Dr Richard A Warshak, it is very triggering at times but also very validating. He describes a lot of strategies and also real life stories. I can see what I did wrong when STBX started the brain washing of my daughters, but now I can't even try to make things right as I can't even see her. It is very frustrating to look at how STBX is ruining the life of an innocent child just for her own pleasure. That the judge and social worker just lap up her victimhood and allows this to continue is not helping, how can you become a flying monkey as a social worker? Yesterday my daughter passed my car, looked away smirking. I can only imagine what STBX had told her about me just before that happened. On a positive note I have arranged for counselling for DD in school and her head teacher seems to get some of it.

I have started to slowly tell the story to some of my new friends and parents of DD's friends. As DD has told their daughters some of it they already know part of the story, I haven't mentioned the abuse but only the alienation so far. It was quite comforting when one of them said that this happened to one of the girls in a team he is coaching and that the dad had not seen his daughter for months with the mother trying to smear him. Apparently the smearing was so bad that he decided to report her to social, which ended up him being reported as well.

I have some struggles with DD and her respecting me, she has seen me being undermined so much in the past that she thinks she doesn't need to listen to me when I try to tell her something she doesn't want to hear. For example she ended up in full meltdown shouting at me when I tried to explain for her that she has been buying adult tickets on the public transport and also paid maximum fare as forgetting to check out. The truth is that I was very careful with telling either of the kids when they did something wrong in the past, the reason for this was that every time STBX heard me doing this she came in shouting and screaming at them thinking they were free targets as I was in her eyes against them.

[SonofThunder]

I have some struggles with DD and her respecting me, she has seen me being undermined so much in the past that she thinks she doesn't need to listen to me when I try to tell her something she doesn't want to hear. For example she ended up in full meltdown shouting at me when I tried to explain for her that she has been buying adult tickets on the public transport and also paid maximum fare as forgetting to check out. The truth is that I was very careful with telling either of the kids when they did something wrong in the past, the reason for this was that every time STBX heard me doing this she came in shouting and screaming at them thinking they were free targets as I was in her eyes against them.

☝🏼Hello EM,

If it brings you any comfort, that type of behavior reminds me of my daughter when she was your DD's age.  My daughter was also raised in the home of a uPDm. 

Looking back, i can understand just how meticulously 'helicopter-parent' managed my children were (PD one style of management and me another style, as I was trying to keep the peace in the home, caretaking my uPDw and also trying to keep my own face above the waterline 😂). 

My children are now married adults but having been raised in our home, are still very protective of their opinion and rights to choose as adults, because the opposite was SO true in their grade-school years. 

Therefore, is there possibly a slightly different parenting method you can utilize with DD, since she is so sensitive-raw by the years with your stbx in the home?  My children were SO VERY eager to obtain their own self-management freedom (even at an inappropriate age) due to (imo) over-management triggers.   

For example, using the public-transportation example:

How about you both purposefully utilize public transportation together for a fun dad/daughter excursion(s) and she plans the event 😊.  There will be a fixed excursion budget and you're going to spend all of the money on the fun time together. The more money spent on transportation, the less available money for fun on the excursion, therefore saving money on boring necessities is key to having more fun.

Since DD is planning and doing this planning WITH you, then you are sitting in the co-pilot's chair next to her when purchasing transportation tickets.  When she is purchasing ticketing, if she does not notice the ticketing age options herself,  you can (as a joyful friend) creatively point out that you notice there is age-related ticketing choices, and that is great  since it allows more budget for fun!

So, Instead of correcting DD on her purchasing mistakes, you two can plan a fun excursion, and in that fun planning stage in which she is the pilot and you copilot, she learns the same information without being criticized. She may, in the future, proactively seek to do the same with other age-related pricing in other situations.  A good lesson. 

Again just a parenting idea you could possibly deploy for many topics with DD and gain the benefit of time together with her as pilot of the planning.  I believe i would do this if I had to parent over again.  I believe these types of methods might be beneficial in helping to practice self-management for any child who might slightly over-react to correction because of the touchy household environment that exists with both PD parents and non-PD parents who are peacekeepers, and children who rarely experience the learning of self-management around PD parents. 

SoT

[escapingman]

Thanks BW and SOT.

I might not be able to control the judge and social worker, but I have to do my best to try to protect my children from continued abuse. The longer time goes by the more I realise how abusive STBX actually was, and still is. What if the social worker recommends and the judge order DD to spend unsupervised time with STBX? I honestly don't know if DD would manage that and what kind of abuse she would be put through. The SW seems to think that STBX now is OK and no more abuse will happen, the judge put all her trust in the SW last hearing and will probably do so again. DD is starting to enjoy her freedom now and would not be able to go back to being put in a cage, I have noticed how she has matured about 5 years since STBX left. She would fight back now and that could end up in a physical altercation with STBX. But I will try to calm down and hope that things will be OK, I am desperate to move on with my life and start new.

I am not sure if I am taking this to an extreme, but STBX hated beards, so I have started growing a beard to make her like me less and stop her thinking of getting back into the relationship. DD told me several times that the few conversations she has had with STBX she has said this is just temporary and we will all be back as a family again soon. She is seriously mentally ill and really don't get it, AT ALL.