Figuring out when to do nothing

[treesgrowslowly]

Saw this article today:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/striving-thriving/202209/doing-nothing-is-doing-something

What I like about this article is where it says that doing nothing might be the right path if "supports your values, your nervous system and your peace of mind".

Walking away, hitting pause, or taking a break from drama is a necessary step in getting Out of the FOG, in my opinion. The on-going FOG, has itself created conditions where we might not know when to 'do nothing'.

Learning that can be life changing. I can look back at the many years I was in the FOG about people in my life. And yep, a lot of times, "doing nothing" really was best for my nervous system and peace of mind.

Thoughts?

Trees

[Sojourner17]

Hi Trees,

I took a look at the article and found it helpful in regards to having something external (at this point) "allowing" that doing nothing is doing something.  I find that right now, after only a month of silence I am just starting to have reactions within my physical body (headaches, extreme  fatigue, lower than normal energy).  My body definitely needs time to do nothing in the relationship with my unpdm and dad (yes, im starting to count him in that category too  )

I recently came across this video by a guy called Kevin who has a youtube channel called The Royal We.  I had discovered him over 4 years ago when I had finally started setting boundaries with my mom (and consequently had huge explosions and fireworks) but just found him again.  You may find this video interesting as he goes in to the pros and cons of silence.  He calles it using silence as a weapon against the narcissist...im not sure I like that wording...but his message is pretty on point and fairly similar to the article you posted. 

https://youtu.be/IWVu64lZMn8

[treesgrowslowly]

Hey Sojourner17,

I think that is a fantastic video. Thank you for sharing it.

Sadly (or not) I learned this really early in life. I think I went silent around narcissists as a kid. A lot. And I knew (somehow) that whatever I said or did, was just fuel for a fire I didn't want to have to go put out later. Let them set their fires with their self-absorbed ways, and without fuel, a fire can't last very long.

I say sadly because of course, this is not what a child should learn. A child should not spend childhood learning how to manage narcissists. Someone in that child's life should protect them from the narcissists. But I say it is also 'not sad', because it got me through, with WAY less drama than other people in my FOO had because they did react and add fuel to the fires!

I guess I was really young when I realized that even when they engaged, it never went anywhere positive. The conflicts were never resolved, people just found something new to gossip about after a while.

I think that, to this day, I refuse to engage with someone unless I can see some real clear signs that they want a positive engagement with me. I 'go silent' easily and often, unless I can see some sign that this person is a 'with me' person not a 'from me' person. I've learned that most people want something from us, most people don't want to experience something positive with us.

So the going silent has carried into my adult years, but definitely started in childhood, due to parental narcissism. Going silent has helped me in a lot of ways over the years. It really is (to my mind) taking fuel away from someone who wants to feed a fire.

I think the video would be helpful to anyone who feels bad about going silent. As he says in the video, if you stay out of their web, it is good for you in the end. I really believe that.

Trees

[Sojourner17]

I wish I would have learned to go silent around narcissists early.  I was put in the role of the "fixer" pretty often and did  a lot of parentified "talking"/ counselling my unpdm from about 11 years old on.  I have found thatmy freeze, fight, freeze, fawn responses have turned to freeze and away from fawn.  I just freeze up now.  Even with texts from unpdm it triggers it and I cant respond.  This sometimes gets me in trouble anyways because whether im silent or do something there is some sort of retaliation or words back.  Either i say the wrong thing/not what she wants to hear and i am shamed, made to feel guilty, etc. or my silence leads to criticism and shaming due to her seeing my silence as breaches of etiquette.

After reading the article and watching the video Ive decided to honor my turn towards freezing, even though id rather it turn into INTENTIONAL silence instead of a reaction/adrenaline response.  I just hope that I can trust myself to know WHEN silence is appropriate and when it isnt.  Perhaps with time I will figure that out.

I rely a lot on external people telling me if what I am doing is appropriate or  the "right thing to do" right now.  I cant seem to trust myself that what my decisions are and what I am doing is the right thing to do.  That's another reason why I'm trying to honor the turn towards silence.  If I don't say/do anything there is no fuel for the fire...even if it looks innocent or benign at the time.  My body is telling me to be quiet and not do anything/not respond, even with a couple words like "thank you" or "that's good".  Any response opens the door for more words to come flooding my way and right now I'm already flooded out. 

Isn't that what happens with some motors?  The ones with a choke and pull chord...if the engine gets flooded it doesn't start, right?  My engine is flooded....i need some time for it to drain.  Silence is helping with that.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Sojourner,

Your post resonates with me. I did not like getting random phone calls from my uNPDm either before I went NC and my nervous system would remain flooded for DAYS after a phone call from her. It really does trigger that fight / flight / freeze/ fawn stuff. I so agree.

Your post got me thinking about how narcs are of course, the ones to totally abuse the situation where now there is a real easy way to reach others: cell phones!

When an unpdm can fling out a random piece of communication to a device you have on your person much of the day, it makes sense that it triggers the fight / flight / freeze /fawn way too often. One can barely recover from one flooded state before the next one arrives. I lived like that for years before I went NC.

Before smartphones, before texting, all the narcs had were: phone calls, random showing up at our front door, emails, or carrier pigeon (lol).

My point being, it was much much easier for us to get space from flying texts coming into our day. We should not forget this. Narcs are taking advantage of the fact that we have a device on us they can reach us with, 24 / 7. This is new for our species. And it is a problem!!

I think this access to us can wreck havoc on our nervous system, and like you said about motors, once the gas line is flooded, only time can make that flooding go down again.

What are people supposed to do when the narcissists in their life have EASY and UNLIMITED access to us via the smartphones?

I went NC before smartphones were common. When I went NC, and didn't want to hear from them, I was able to block their number for calls, block their emails. And I had a plan for the random showing up at the door, and any attempt to send a message via carrier pigeon (or more realistically, the mail).

For those who are LC or VLC, I feel for all of you to be honest. This is a much harder context within which to get some breathing space from an uNPD mother. Back in my 'day', I could just put the land line off the hook and they would get a busy signal. It was easier back then.

I think it can be helpful to remember that being available to respond was not common or normal (or even possible) until very very recently in human history.

People could get space from others, way more easily. Now that we've got a device they can get to us anytime they want. It's not good for our nervous system.

Personally, I think it is healthy to take breaks from people, even people we like.

It used to happen naturally, since there were breaks afforded to us, because if we were not home, no one could phone us, and if we took off for a weekend in the woods, no one could bother us (well, maybe bears but that's a different problem lol!). It was much much easier for our poor, overtaxed, flooded nervous systems calm down because there were easy ways for us to be out of reach, and they were all socially acceptable!

No one could text us while we were just busy living our lives each day and no one expected to be in touch with us or have access to us 24 / 7.

It's a privilege not a right to have 24 / 7 access to us. That is how I see it. As an adult, no one has the right to contact me anytime they feel like it.

I have the right to some days where I don't reply to any texts at all. I mean, these are rights we all had not that long ago lol!!

I think that "the silent treatment" needs to be understood in context. Were people giving each other the "silent treatment" back in 1985 when they didn't speak for a week? No - it was just normal. It was normal to go days and days without having anyone contact you at all.

Of course I'm not naive here, I grew up around narcs. Of course they called people on the phone, of course they used the phone to reach people and try to get supply. Of course they went to local PTA meetings to try to interrupt meetings with their narc ways. Narcissism has existed and thrived way before cell phones were invented.

But I am old enough to recall that it was accepted, normal, and healthy for our nervous systems, to have lots of space and ways of getting breaks from their narcissistic ways.

The easy access that narcissists have to us and our spaces is higher than it's ever been. It only makes sense that we work to protect our nervous systems. What you describe is exactly that - letting the flooded state settle.

I don't have much by way of advice for those who have their narc parent in their life, since for me, it was not possible to keep those relationships and heal. I couldn't do it. Narcs feel entitled to access to us. It is not your fault that your nervous system reacts the way that it does. That need for peace is a real, valid, healthy need. I don't see it as "the silent treatment" when it is THE way that our nervous system will settle.

I do wonder if you feel guilty for going into flight / fight / freeze / fawn mode. Or frustrated. It is frustrating for sure.

What the narc will never understand, is that we have the capacity to take care of ourselves. For them, they actually don't have emotional regulation skills, which is part of the disorder. So for them, they don't know how to settle their own nervous system. Our need for space and self-care, baffles them. And upsets them.

My narc parent would go silent in an attempt to punish us (didn't work - I felt relieved when she went silent lol). I do wonder if some of us were taught that silence is a form of punishment. Then we feel guilty if we go silent. But our silence is a form of self-care. So we can settle our fight / flight stuff. So much to unlearn in this journey...

Trees

[bee well]

Hi Trees, Hi Sojourner, Hi All,

I appreciate the ideas in the article and in the video. I agree with Sojourner about the word "weapon" in the title of the video. Silence is not a weapon, although some people have learned to use it that way.

I agree that silence is a form of self-care, Silence helps us relax, deandrenalize, get a healthy "recharge", and be more creative. And as Trees wrote we do need breaks from time to time, even from those we like. Silence is a right! Thanks for reminding us of that.

Many of us have been conditioned in our FOOS to be guilty when we exercise our rights, and I think in this journey we have a right to (re)claim our confidence to allow ourselves the right to have silence, and create mental space.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Really good discussion. Yes, my narcissistic parents certainly perceived my silence as a weapon against them. I had it drummed into me that, "The rudest thing you can do is ignore someone." On at least a few occasions when dad had worn someone down and they no longer engaged with him haha. But at least MY DAUGHTER will know never to ignore me. It must be that fear of abandonment. Even when I was called downstairs or whatever my response had to be absolutely immediate.

I think he did go silent and ignore me much of the time to express the King's displeasure. But like you, trees, I was just relieved. Engaging with him meant inevitable abuse. I only did what I had to do to manage his emotions enough that I wouldn't get hurt as much. Engaging my father on purpose was a foolish thing to do. But if I didn't do it often enough, or if he had some other narcissistic injury which my mother would be sure to keep me apprised of, he'd feel I was ignoring him and that would make things worse. So I learned to fawn, as little as possible. Curiously he was never a texter, despite being on his smartphone a lot, and I'm glad for that. I think text is low-value supply. Anyway... I too am NC as I couldn't do that anymore. I needed to learn to feel and manage my own emotions, and as you rightly say we need a fair amount of silence to be able to do that! Especially those of us who are catching up on these developmental projects! There was no silence in my house growing up. The TV and radio were on from the moment my parents came downstairs until they went to bed. I would hide in my room until I was dragged out to "be social," aka sit on the couch while the TV blared. In my house now I don't even have TV! I just have children haha. But I really need peace and quiet every day.

Whether it's a weapon or not, weapons can certainly be used for self-defense. And that's what we're talking about here. So presuming my silence is a weapon against my parents, why do I need a weapon in the first place? When people are abusive normal boundaries need to be enforced more forcefully. So call it a weapon if you want, I'm taking care of me.

[bee well]

Hi Again All,

Call Me Cordelia. what you wrote herestood out to me: "I had it drummed into me that, "The rudest thing you can do is ignore someone."

Too many of us did, a lot of us were programmed to respond (and had our own survival mechanisms). I think that's one of the reasons why it's so hard for many of us to go into a self protective retreat mode. (not responding to the calls, or going into LC, possibly NC).

Then there is what you said about self defense:

"Whether it's a weapon or not, weapons can certainly be used for self-defense. And that's what we're talking about here. So presuming my silence is a weapon against my parents, why do I need a weapon in the first place? When people are abusive normal boundaries need to be enforced more forcefully. So call it a weapon if you want, I'm taking care of me."

Reminds me of what you wrote when you commented on my MIL situation a while back: "Whether she's got N or B or XYZ it's completely up to her if she wants to take any of what you've said and done on board."

Yes, it doesn't matter what it's called and predictably nothing has been taken on board. There is still silence, and in this case that equals no abuse, and more time to catch up on developmental projects.

[Sojourner17]

Trees,  Im old enough to remember party lines and life before answering machines, but young enough to have had a cell phone for half my life.  Now with smartphones its even worse (anyone remember texting on the older cellphones...it was laborious!  ).  I have found that, yes, since having a cell phone I was expected to be available any time of the day and late into the evening.  I remember as a young adult (pre coming Out of the FOG) going through something and calling my mom in tears in the middle of the night but luckily i have never RECIEVED  a call in the middle of the night.  that hasnt stopped calls or texts coming in at 11 pm or as early as 5 AM from unpdm.   She's a little better now as I told her a few years ago that I would not answer calls or texts after 9 am unless there was an emergency (as in someone is being rushed to the hospital or is dyeing).  She still pushes the boundary with that one...but its better.

Many times I have thought how much easier contact would be able to be managed without cell phones.  How many nasty, hurtful things would NOT have been said.  I even had an incident where in the midst of a yelling/crying match with my younger sister my mom called me and my phone went through to our car bluetooth where my husband and children could hear the yelling and screaming.  I shut that one down pretty quick! coincidentally, or not, that was the last thanksgiving we spent with my foo. 

to get back to the topic at hand.  There was definitely more room for margin pre-cell phones.  I find that my own cell phone usage has greatly increased (youtube, anyone?) and I am now in the position where I am seriously trying to retrain myself to NOT pick up my phone every 10 minutes or listen to youtube videos all day (modern version of the TV or Radio blaring all day).  Add that to the texts and phone calls and I'm in serious need of a cell phone detox.   

I also had it drummed into me that it was very rude to ignore someone and that I always had to be open and hospitable to others even if i was just thrown into the situation.  So much so that when I lived with roommates I made the mistake of not telling my roommates that a stranger (foreign exchange student who would go on to my parents 2 hours away) would be staying at our house for the night.  They laughed it off as one of my many quirks (God bless them!) but it was a wake up call to that NOT being normal behavior.  I was trained to accept everyone, invite anyone into my home without hesitation, and being ok with them staying there sometimes for years at a time.  im getting off topic again. 

Cordelia and Bee well, I like how you frame the word weapon and silence being a weapon of self-defense.  Its an intentional silence that protects from future harm, not an intentional silence meant to punish (though im sure THEY think its punishment, petty, resentful, pouting, etc.).
And yes, the silence allows for space to catch up on developmental projects.  It clears out the clutter and allows space and time to sort through thoughts, keep the ones that help us and discard the ones that dont.  It allows space to CHOOSE how to BE in our own lives.  It allows space to heal and make conscious decisions about how we will treat others such as our own FOC and friends and neighbors.  It allows space in order to figure out our internal and external boundaries, where we end and others begin.

I too have started to not respond to peoples texts or phone calls right away.  Trees, you are right, until recently no one could be accessed 24-7 and that access, especially for those dealing with abuse IS a very big problem!  It may account for the exhaustion due to having to constantly hold the boundary line or feeling like you have to hold the line in regards to boundaries.  I dont think we were created to be under constant pressure in such a way.  up until recent history we could get out and away from people to have time to reflect, spend time in nature, etc.  now, in some parts of the world you are never truly away from the blare and glare of noise and screens.  I think it HAS messed with peoples nervous systems in very real ways.  I know, even for myself, I am more on edge and jittery if I dont have silence and time away from all the noise. 

When it comes to figuring out when to do nothing it gets tricky.  Modern life puts a lot of pressure on us.  not too long ago it was easier to do nothing.  now we are expected to be ON all the time.  We have to be intentional about when we are off.  Off line, off-grid, off in a field somewhere smelling the flowers and lying in the grass.  We have to be intentional about slowing down, sitting in silence, letting our bodies and minds relax and rejuvenate and get out of a flooded state.  I think for some of us it will take longer, and we have to allow ourselves to be okay with that.