DAE parents demand they achieve things but also took no interest in them?

[easterncappy]

I have a lot of comments on here I need to reply to but I've been thinking about something in the context of how I'd like to raise my daughter and I wondered if others had experienced it or had some wisdom to share.

My parents always demanded good grades and a high-earning career from me. I remember as a kid, they'd have the TV on so loud and so late that I'd never get any sleep, I had terrible black circles under my eyes from tiredness as early as 8 years old. My dad also had a laugh so obnoxious that I could hear it on the sidewalk underneath our third floor balcony during the day, so obviously that kept me up too as they'd watch comedies. I'd get screamed at if I asked them to turn the TV down or otherwise quiet down so I could sleep. I was still expected to do well in school and get good grades. There was no safe and productive study environment, attempt at helping me with things I struggled with, or any actions that indicated that my education was important - just demands to do it right anyway.

I don't think they understood that usually you have to take interest in what a child is doing for them to feel like it's important, too. I remember seeing all of the high achiever students around me and their parents were almost always heavily involved with their education, leading by example by participating in school activities, helping with homework, providing a good study environment, etc.

This was a recurring theme in my life for a long time and that's just one really good example of it. Another example of a related behavior is that I'd sometimes unintentionally copy my dad's actions, which would upset my mom, and I'd tell her "but he does it all of the time!", to which the response was "just because he does it doesn't mean you should too". Usually there were a million excuses if he did those things though. I'm talking temper tantrums, rude comments, cussing, and the like - things I outgrew and realized were ugly fleas, but I still copied them as a child. Absolutely no awareness of the concept of parents modeling behavior for their children.

[NarcKiddo]

Funnily enough I was discussing aspects of this with my therapist yesterday.

I, too, was expected to have good grades. In addition, the school I attended prized grades above all else, so you dropped early what you weren't automatically good at (unless it was a required part of the curriculum). I was taught exam technique and developed the ability to remember stuff just long enough to produce it for the exam. Then I happily forgot it (and re-learned if necessary). Hardly what I would now think of as "education". There was no emphasis on doing things for enjoyment or even persevering until you mastered something difficult. Coming late to fitness has been a revelation to me - the whole process of finding something I can't do, wanting to do it and working damned hard until I achieve it has been wonderful. Given that physical exertion was not something my parents approved of or encouraged means there were/are a heck of a lot of things I couldn't/can't do. The possibilities are endless!

My parents took no real interest in what I did besides what the grades were. Not only that, but my mother had an uncanny knack of realising what I actually enjoyed and engulfing or minimising my activities. I enjoyed pottery at school, until she gave me commissions, with precise instructions on what the piece was to look like. When I got good grades for an art portfolio and showed her the pictures she shook her head in wonder and asked how on earth I could get good marks for such daubs. She wanted me to take up piano or singing. I did not, but took up clarinet. I liked it and I think I was good at it, given the speed with which I passed exams. For some reason she hated everything to do with that clarinet and repeatedly discouraged me, telling me it was unhealthy, until I stopped bothering to bring it home and only practised at school.

My therapist said it is quite usual for people with narc tendencies to dislike others finding joy in something they have chosen for themselves, because narcs often have difficulty actually finding joy (however much they may pretend otherwise) and resent others having what they can't.

[Cat of the Canals]

Good grades and general "achievement" were an absolute expectation of my Queen BPD mother. The only support we got was a pat on the head for giving her that which she felt she was entitled. I can't think of a time we were actually rewarded for our efforts by her. (My dad, who had never been a good student, did eventually realize how hard we were working and went out of his way to reward us.) I got a C in Calculus when I was in high school, and instead of asking what the problem was or suggesting I ask for help from my teacher, PDmom had a total meltdown and demanded I "fix it."

She pushed me into learning the musical instrument of her choice and despite my absolute lack of interest, shuttled me to lessons for 14 years. When I developed an interest in a different instrument, she did little to encourage me. When I was old enough to start participating in extracurriculars at school on my own, she only cared as much as she could try to "show me off" to her friends when the opportunity presented itself. Again, my passion for these things didn't seem to register with her. When she found out I was considering pursuing one of them after high school, she was surprised. As if the fact that I'd dedicated hours and hours of my free time throughout all four years of high school was something I did randomly????

[JustKathy]

Same here. My Nmother had no interest in what I was doing in school as long as I was bringing home a perfect report card.

When I was younger (elementary school), she actually did my homework for me because I was "too stupid" to do it right on my own. When I was older she selected my classes for me and it was on me to do the work and excel at it. At one point she had me simultaneously enrolled in both Spanish and French, as well as advanced math classes. My life was going to school, coming home, and doing homework until I went to bed. My mother would also blast the volume on the TV while I tried to study. She never helped me with my homework or even asked what the assignments were. I wasn't allowed to take part in any extra-curricular activities, probably because it would allow me to socialize and have friends.

The one exception to the "good grades" rule was any class that made me happy. Like NarcKiddo, my mother got angry when I found something creative that brought me joy, like art, music, or drama. She'd find a way to sabotage what I was doing. She wanted me to fail and get a bad grade in those classes so I'd give up and not pursue it further. In her mind, the arts were for losers. I had to take science classes in order to gain "respect."

[Pepin]

My father was the same.  He demanded of me what he was unable to do.  Lazy is an understatement when it comes to describing him and how he operated.  He had no idea what his demands entailed to actually achieve and he couldn't care less as long as the result I achieved was perfect.  I failed a lot by bringing home Bs and Cs and even some Ds.  I probably would have been a better student if I had had a quiet place to study and the time to do it.  Since I was constantly being needed to help him with his JOB, my time was broken and interrupted.  How could I focus?  He didn't respect the time I needed to put in for school work and then turned around and reprimanded me for not getting straight As.  I doubt he was a straight A student therefore he behaves from a place he doesn't know.  Didn't help that he attended to my siblings more and praised them for their academics and talent.  He worked at a highly regarded academic institution as well.  Adored his students.  No doubt I was an embarrassment to him.

[easterncappy]

My father was the same.  He demanded of me what he was unable to do.  Lazy is an understatement when it comes to describing him and how he operated.  He had no idea what his demands entailed to actually achieve and he couldn't care less as long as the result I achieved was perfect.  I failed a lot by bringing home Bs and Cs and even some Ds.  I probably would have been a better student if I had had a quiet place to study and the time to do it.  Since I was constantly being needed to help him with his JOB, my time was broken and interrupted.  How could I focus?  He didn't respect the time I needed to put in for school work and then turned around and reprimanded me for not getting straight As.  I doubt he was a straight A student therefore he behaves from a place he doesn't know.  Didn't help that he attended to my siblings more and praised them for their academics and talent.  He worked at a highly regarded academic institution as well.  Adored his students.  No doubt I was an embarrassment to him.

This is relatable. During college, I did pretty decently given the circumstances... which were that I was expected to drive my mom to and from her job every day, as well as grocery shopping or any other thing she wanted to do. She isn't disabled or in any other situation where she'd need a driver, it was just a FOG-induced chore I had. Yet when my grades slipped up because I spent literally 5+ hours a day catering to her, or I couldn't complete prerequisites on time because they were only offered when she "needed" me to drive her, it was because I was lazy. If it was blamed on anything, it was the few things I got to sparingly enjoy at the time.

My dad was both lazy and unintelligent. He never paid much attention in school when he was young nor did he have much of a work ethic (I grew up hearing that he had one but I realized as an adult that this was just a delusion on my parents' part). He really had no idea what went into a college degree or a career, yet I was supposed to figure it out when he actively did things that made it much more difficult like creating an environment where I literally couldn't sleep normally for years.

They really know how to set us up for failure in life, don't they?

[easterncappy]

Funnily enough I was discussing aspects of this with my therapist yesterday.

I, too, was expected to have good grades. In addition, the school I attended prized grades above all else, so you dropped early what you weren't automatically good at (unless it was a required part of the curriculum). I was taught exam technique and developed the ability to remember stuff just long enough to produce it for the exam. Then I happily forgot it (and re-learned if necessary). Hardly what I would now think of as "education". There was no emphasis on doing things for enjoyment or even persevering until you mastered something difficult. Coming late to fitness has been a revelation to me - the whole process of finding something I can't do, wanting to do it and working damned hard until I achieve it has been wonderful. Given that physical exertion was not something my parents approved of or encouraged means there were/are a heck of a lot of things I couldn't/can't do. The possibilities are endless!

My parents took no real interest in what I did besides what the grades were. Not only that, but my mother had an uncanny knack of realising what I actually enjoyed and engulfing or minimising my activities. I enjoyed pottery at school, until she gave me commissions, with precise instructions on what the piece was to look like. When I got good grades for an art portfolio and showed her the pictures she shook her head in wonder and asked how on earth I could get good marks for such daubs. She wanted me to take up piano or singing. I did not, but took up clarinet. I liked it and I think I was good at it, given the speed with which I passed exams. For some reason she hated everything to do with that clarinet and repeatedly discouraged me, telling me it was unhealthy, until I stopped bothering to bring it home and only practised at school.

My therapist said it is quite usual for people with narc tendencies to dislike others finding joy in something they have chosen for themselves, because narcs often have difficulty actually finding joy (however much they may pretend otherwise) and resent others having what they can't.

That last part was very profound. I always wondered why my mom seemed so hostile to other people's joy - anything from hobbies to healthy marriages, she immediately became bitter and spewed venom about it. She didn't seem to understand why or how people enjoyed those things, and seemed to disbelieve that the latter even existed.

I went to art school briefly, mostly against my wishes, and my mom also decided that it was an opportunity for her. I loved art as a kid. Really loved it. I was always drawing or painting. As I grew up I was regarded as being talented at it. I haven't seriously touched it in about a decade because my mom's constant demands for me to make something for her burned me out. She doesn't get why. It was either making things for her or "you should make art to sell" or "you should become an art teacher or artist". No room for "you can just have a thing you enjoy doing for no other reason than enjoyment".

I wanted to learn German instead of Spanish in high school. Spanish is the go-to foreign language most people take in the US because almost all high schools have a foreign language requirement. I found German more interesting and I liked the teacher and the small group of students in the program, but she thought it was a useless waste of time because it wasn't a common business language in the US that I could use for job opportunities. Ironically, in college, a lot of employers found it more interesting that I spoke German rather than Spanish, because so many people in the US speak Spanish that it's hardly unique anymore... but even if it made me unmarketable, I enjoyed it, which matters too.

[easterncappy]

Good grades and general "achievement" were an absolute expectation of my Queen BPD mother. The only support we got was a pat on the head for giving her that which she felt she was entitled. I can't think of a time we were actually rewarded for our efforts by her. (My dad, who had never been a good student, did eventually realize how hard we were working and went out of his way to reward us.) I got a C in Calculus when I was in high school, and instead of asking what the problem was or suggesting I ask for help from my teacher, PDmom had a total meltdown and demanded I "fix it."

She pushed me into learning the musical instrument of her choice and despite my absolute lack of interest, shuttled me to lessons for 14 years. When I developed an interest in a different instrument, she did little to encourage me. When I was old enough to start participating in extracurriculars at school on my own, she only cared as much as she could try to "show me off" to her friends when the opportunity presented itself. Again, my passion for these things didn't seem to register with her. When she found out I was considering pursuing one of them after high school, she was surprised. As if the fact that I'd dedicated hours and hours of my free time throughout all four years of high school was something I did randomly????

My mom would often preface things with "I hope you won't think I'm saying this because (I want you to do.../I want to brag about.../etc)...", which I learned as an adult means she does, in fact, want whatever she's telling me she doesn't want. In the case of my education, she wanted me to feel really confident that she didn't just want to brag about me to her friends... except, she did. Her disappointment in me was usually stated as "what will people think?". Or she was obviously comparing me to some relative or person my age she knew. Worth noting that most of the people she knows who have children my age are also PD's, because PD's attract PD's. So any conversations with her friends were usually them trying to one-up each other about their kids.

Your story with the musical instrument makes me think back to art school... I wanted to try music, of any sort. I was always curious about it. My husband is a trained musician and says anyone can learn to be decently good at music, even if they're not "naturally talented"... I think so too, even if it's just for fun and you don't end up being decently good at it at all. Back then, though, I wanted to take a few music classes at that art school. My mom absolutely 100% forbade it and made me feel like an idiot for even asking. The classes were free and I needed to fill up my schedule with something of my own choosing, so that wasn't her problem.

And my mom's favorite way of dealing with genuinely abusive teachers who made classes unreasonably difficult to the point where most of the class was struggling: "I don't care how the other kids are doing, you need to get your grades up anyway". As if I could do that with a teacher who seemed hellbent on failing even the best students. On a related note, I always thought it was really weird how I had one teacher around when I was 10 years old who absolutely despised me. She treated me like garbage constantly... but she loved my mom. Oh, how her and my mom got along. Now I realize that my mom just sort of gravitated towards people who treated me poorly, and that teacher probably saw it, and they both got off on it. Funny how learning about PD's has helped me piece it together and see just how many people in my life have been "that way"...

Sorry for rambling. It's 2 am and my baby's keeping me awake and I'm having flashbacks of my whole life because everyone keeps reminding me of things that were firmly in the back of my brain until now. Appreciate you all for replying to my post.

[easterncappy]

Same here. My Nmother had no interest in what I was doing in school as long as I was bringing home a perfect report card.

When I was younger (elementary school), she actually did my homework for me because I was "too stupid" to do it right on my own. When I was older she selected my classes for me and it was on me to do the work and excel at it. At one point she had me simultaneously enrolled in both Spanish and French, as well as advanced math classes. My life was going to school, coming home, and doing homework until I went to bed. My mother would also blast the volume on the TV while I tried to study. She never helped me with my homework or even asked what the assignments were. I wasn't allowed to take part in any extra-curricular activities, probably because it would allow me to socialize and have friends.

The one exception to the "good grades" rule was any class that made me happy. Like NarcKiddo, my mother got angry when I found something creative that brought me joy, like art, music, or drama. She'd find a way to sabotage what I was doing. She wanted me to fail and get a bad grade in those classes so I'd give up and not pursue it further. In her mind, the arts were for losers. I had to take science classes in order to gain "respect."

I think my parents didn't really understand that if they wanted their perfect high achiever straight A student daughter with a great career, they needed to let me participate in extra-curricular activities. That's a huge thing that colleges and employers look for. I joined an honors fraternity in college and was barely able to participate in anything they did because of my mom's demands. I'm writing a blog post about how in so many situations in my life, whether it was boyfriends who were actually normal people or potential employers, there was always someone better to choose than me, because of things that my parents had direct influence over in my life. Why would the hard to get accounting internship at a B4 firm hire me? There were 100 other students to choose from with a resume full of extra-curricular activities, who were able to work more flexible schedules because their mother didn't demand 5+ hours of their day. It's not exactly shocking to reasonable people that my accounting career didn't take off the way it was supposed to.

My mom once had me sign up for AP classes... for those who don't know, they're basically a really difficult version of a normal class that is supposed to count towards college credits. There were so many of them, they were so difficult, and my home life was so terrible that I ended up skipping class in the bathroom a lot that year. My AP Art History teacher was a sweet lady who helped me retake a couple of tests after she saw that I was self-harming and I opened up to her about my terrible home life, but I ended up failing some of the other ones. This was at the time where my dad was driving me to school drunk regularly and I feared for my life at times... nope, still needed to get straight A's.

[Maxtrem]

I have had similar experiences. I wanted to go to a specific science program with my best friend in high school, but my uBPDm denigrated me until I capitulated to go to another academic program at another school of her choice. I hated my high school and the program, I was not motivated at all, my grades were average, nothing extraordinary, but I never failed. Of course for 5 years my uBPDm belittled me, said I was a loser that I would never do anything with my life, that I was lazy, etc. To top it all off, she even told me: I understand mothers who kill their children (I had an average report card) . On top of that, I was going to help my uBPDm voluntarily at her job to take care of a disabled child on Saturdays because she was not able to do it alone.

To this day I still feel uneasy when I walk past my old high school.

And of course I had chosen art as an elective that I enjoyed and loved. My uBPDm continually disparaged that class, the drawings I did, the students in it. She wanted me to take the drama class even though I am extremely shy and have trouble speaking in front of a crowd.

I also wanted to become an architect and take over my father's construction company. My uBPDm has for years put doubts in me, I wouldn't be good, it's not a good field, I was going to go bankrupt, nobody would hire me, I wasn't good enough in math, my constructions would be rotten...

I ended up studying finance. In college I excelled, I was even in the top 5 of my department, I had scholarships for excellence. Of course I studied a lot and there my uBPDm was still criticizing me, I was studying too much while I wasn't helping her enough...

When I was almost done with college, I started to send a lot of resumes and before I had an interview, I did a lot of research on the company to be very well prepared, since I was afraid not to find jobs quickly. Of course she didn't appreciate it because it was too much time that wasn't meant to help her. She also mentioned that no one would hire me because I didn't have enough experience. When I had an interview and I wasn't selected my uBPDm told me that the bosses knew in their questions that I was immature and that I didn't help my mother enough 

Finally I found a good job in finance quite quickly. I was selected out of more than 50 applicants. I am still doing the same job, except that it is not a field that I am passionate about, I have no motivation in this job besides the salary and the conditions.

I should have listened to myself and become an architect. Today I am a real estate passionate and I have made many real estate investments in recent years that are very profitable. Let's just say that I strongly regret not having taken over my father's company which is now inactive since his retirement. The funny thing is that many of my tenants ask me if I am an architect because many are impressed with the concept/design of my properties.

I have accomplished my financial goals in my 20's that I set for my 40's. Of course my uBPDm still tries to put doubts in my mind; she always mentions that I might run out of money, that my tenants might not pay me and vandalize my properties, that I might go bankrupt... That the last piece of land I bought is in a bad location, that it's not a nice street... Why? I suspect that she doesn't appreciate that I am successful in a field I am passionate about. 

In short, I am successful in my work and in my investments and instead of being proud, she tries to put doubts in my mind so that I stop investing 

Sorry for the length, I really felt the need to vent 

[doglady]

Yep, totally.
I had to get high marks (and was always asked after a test, 'but what did [insert name of smartest girl in the class] get?')

I had to do the science and Maths subjects that she chose (because after all, she hadn't got to go to University and find a cure for cancer - I kid you not). I enjoyed Art and Literature and, like Maxtrem, I wanted to be an architect.

She and my father took countless photos of me at inter school swimming competitions but never told me I'd done a good job.

I had to play the musical instrument she chose - piano. I loved guitar, but wasn't encouraged at all to learn it.

At my wedding, she made a cringy speech about my supposed achievements, but not once in there did she mention anything about me as a person. Because to her I wasn't, I was just a robot that made her look good.