Just can't shake this

[Pepin]

IDK what to think about this....I'm confused and bewildered.  As you know, MIL passed away this year.  She was a part of my life for 20 something years.  I met her when she was around her mid 50s.  And I think I have mentioned this before at some point here in the past but already at that age, she was exhibiting some pretty obvious signs of helplessness.  I am almost her age when my younger self met her.  And I cannot imagine operating how she did at that age.  In fact, when I look back on it, it seems as though she had already relegated herself to helpless old lady status -- I have friends her age and older peers -- that operate at a more mature and growth seeking level.  MIL seemed to have zero curiosity about much of anything and needed a lot of help.  Things that I found baffling that someone her age (mid 50s) would have needed help with include:
sorting mail
arranging air travel, hotel or car rental
choosing and locating a new restaurant
help going to any bank -- even if it was her current branch
directions to any destination other than that what she was familiar with
reading and understanding statements and how to pay them
doing the math for leaving tips
getting quotes for home repair
servicing her vehicle
reading directions for setting up any appliance and buying appliances
books?  what are those she didn't read any
booking medical appointments
using the yellow pages and operating a *corded* phone

and much more --- again, this was how she operated from when I first met her in her mid-ish 50s -- and FIL was similar in some ways as well.     

Looking back, I am shocked.  Really taken aback.  That she needed help with all of these things and at times, FIL, did, too.  I am really at a loss. 

I've looked at some pictures of her younger self recently and again, I am at a complete loss at how this woman operated.  The pictures of her seemed "normal" in my opinion of a woman her age.  And obviously I didn't know her then so I don't really know what she was like.  But based on what I do know -- it had to have been a good measure all along of who she was and how she operated.  And it drives home the point that DH (and his siblings) were heavily parentified as I had suspected all along.  The kids were essentially raising the parents.  And within DH's side of the family, CN MIL got away with it the longest -- as long as I've known her and after I understood the scope of the situation.  DH's cousins operated nothing at all like DH did.  They did not hand hold their parents and basically moved on with their lives after leaving for college, setting healthy boundaries with there parents.  DH was the only one to continuously care for his mother -- and he did the most out of his siblings.

Again, as I reflect on CN MIL's passing and who she was -- I'm just stunned.  Really.  I'm left wondering, what the hell happened?  How does one get like that?  And the only thing I can boil it down to is that she was a CN from her very beginning.  Something struck me during her funeral reading that I cannot explain in detail here other than that she prided herself on being competitive/fastest amongst her work peers for a certain line of work she was formerly in.  I do believe in healthy competitiveness but it seemed that the way it was explained, she held this above her peers like she was better than them rather than being a strong contributor.  And that right there definitely summed up her attitude as I knew her.  I truly believe it made her feel fulfilled to do what others could not.  And I think when her kids started getting married, all the air was let out of her tires and she reverted to the waif I knew.  DH was the last of her children to get married and I think that really triggered something in her.  She had to keep the attention going somehow.  There wasn't anything that she could hold over her children because they all had spouses and kids of their own to attend to  -- so waifery become her greatest asset.  I just can't believe a woman like this existed and did what she did.  It was the ickiest 20ish years of my life...and I'm still standing.

[Cascade]

My mother, not a PD as far as know, has always been very dependent on others. I always blamed it on her limited education and low self esteem. I think I picked up a bit of that from her because I have to push myself to do things that seem a little scary for me but in reality aren't scary at all. I wonder if your MIL learned some of that behaviour from one of her parents too. Of course it could just be pure manipulation.

[Srcyu]

Could she read?
That's not meant to be a rude question. I've met a couple of people who could not read very well.

I literally could never, ever do math. All the way through school without anyone bothering to pick up on that.
The same thing probably happens with reading.

[Pepin]

Could she read?
That's not meant to be a rude question. I've met a couple of people who could not read very well.

Yeah -- I think that she perhaps had a bit of illiteracy going on.  But why would it be covered up?  If DH had straight up and told me, I likely would have been more understanding of the situation.

On the other hand, she had all the time in the world to work on this.  Really.  For the 20ish years that I've known her, she was generally retired and spent a lot of time watching TV or just sitting around.  She did look after some of the grandkids -- and why wouldn't that have been an opportunity to learn to read alongside them?  She may have felt embarrassed about her situation -- but why not use it as a teaching moment for the younger generations?

My mother, not a PD as far as know, has always been very dependent on others. I always blamed it on her limited education and low self esteem. I think I picked up a bit of that from her because I have to push myself to do things that seem a little scary for me but in reality aren't scary at all. I wonder if your MIL learned some of that behaviour from one of her parents too. Of course it could just be pure manipulation.

MIL's mother -- was illiterate.  Yet she somehow was very independent having been widowed from a young age.  I believe that many were involved in keeping her afloat.  She was very stubborn about refusing to learn to read and I think every just threw their hands up and let her be.  As for MIL on the other hand, there really wasn't any sort of excuse.  She thought that everyone would be at her beck and call because that's what happened for her own mother?  Seems kind of warped.   MIL's siblings did not operate this way.  This is why I find it to be so peculiar about her behavior and why I cannot shake it.  Secrets.  Things that aren't being told. 

And the other thing that I just cannot comprehend is this: all the female grandchildren have more or less done academically well and very well.  Why did MIL not praise them for this?  She only cared about one grandchild.....a male.  He did well in school but as an adult is a mess of a human being.  No direction or ambition.  Cannot make up his mind about what to do with his life whereas all the females have direction and know exactly what to do.  I know MIL was fueled by patriarchy.  Since she lacked literacy, perhaps this behavior of hers was a way to keep others (females) down.  This is why my husband was so important to her.  The more time she spent with him, the less time I had with him. 

[Jolie40]

That she needed help with all of these things How does one get like that? 

PD parent became dependent on everyone. She was an only child & according to my grandma, grandma did everything for her so I guess she was spoiled. When pregnant with me, grandma left her husband in another state to live with my parents for 8 mos & do everything! When I was a teen & came home from school, she was always waiting to tell me what to cook for dinner & made me do the family laundry, vacuum, etc.....any task she didn't want to do. She would then go take a 3 hr nap until dad came home at 6 pm.  There was never any "how was school?" but instead "do this, do that." If she had to drive anywhere new, she had dad drive her the day before to show her how to get there. As she got older, dad had to take her to ALL her many Dr appts as she wouldn't go alone. Two of my siblings lived at home past 40, so she depended on them a lot, also.  Was it laziness or gradual dependence on everyone for everything.....I don't know.

[Srcyu]

Pepin,
I think it would be covered up out of embarrassment. Generally, if normal teaching methods haven't worked (like me with math) then there's not much chance of her picking it up later without the right help.

Doesn't excuse anything else though.

[Pepin]

The longer I sit with this, the worse I feel.  First and foremost (nothing to do with PDs) it irritates me that women behave like this.  Of course I want the best for every woman as we continue to break out of the chains of patriarchy.  Secondly, why would I be kept in the dark about the possibility of illiteracy?  On some level I get it....embarrassment and other feelings that go along with that.  On the other hand, DH's time was taken up to deal with her stuff.  He already had a lot on his plate -- with work and work travel.  That my time with him and our children's time with him was shortened without explanation was really unfair.  I think that the kids and I would have been more receptive to the situation if we had been quietly informed.  It is not anything that we would have used against DH or MIL -- but whenever we had asked for clarification, DH would hold that over us like we were terrible people.  If he had just told us what was going on, there would have been so much less pain.  As his wife, I've been by his side for a few decades now.  This hurts me immensely.  I had a dysfunctional childhood and DH knows this!  I've given him a lot of information about how I was raised and what was said to me -- stuff that no one else knows except my therapists.  DH on the other hand always had excuses for his mother and family rather than getting real with me about it.  What did he think I was going to do?  Laugh at him/them?  Leave him?  Use it against him?  If anything, his lack of transparency with this and other stuff is what I could use against him now.  CN MIL's behavior prior to her death (after becoming widowed) in addition to her estate wishes at her death can only paint her as a true CN.  I wish I could describe the details because what she did was just cruel to her children -- because she had a bone to pick. 

[SonofThunder]

The longer I sit with this, the worse I feel.  First and foremost (nothing to do with PDs) it irritates me that women behave like this.  Of course I want the best for every woman as we continue to break out of the chains of patriarchy.  Secondly, why would I be kept in the dark about the possibility of illiteracy?  On some level I get it....embarrassment and other feelings that go along with that.  On the other hand, DH's time was taken up to deal with her stuff.  He already had a lot on his plate -- with work and work travel.  That my time with him and our children's time with him was shortened without explanation was really unfair.  I think that the kids and I would have been more receptive to the situation if we had been quietly informed.  It is not anything that we would have used against DH or MIL -- but whenever we had asked for clarification, DH would hold that over us like we were terrible people.  If he had just told us what was going on, there would have been so much less pain.  As his wife, I've been by his side for a few decades now.  This hurts me immensely.  I had a dysfunctional childhood and DH knows this!  I've given him a lot of information about how I was raised and what was said to me -- stuff that no one else knows except my therapists.  DH on the other hand always had excuses for his mother and family rather than getting real with me about it.  What did he think I was going to do?  Laugh at him/them?  Leave him?  Use it against him?  If anything, his lack of transparency with this and other stuff is what I could use against him now.  CN MIL's behavior prior to her death (after becoming widowed) in addition to her estate wishes at her death can only paint her as a true CN.  I wish I could describe the details because what she did was just cruel to her children -- because she had a bone to pick.

Hi Pepin,

Im so very sorry you are feeling worse. Im also sorry you have been mistreated by your family members for decades. 

Regarding being possibly kept in the dark about illiteracy: every time in my past, that another known puzzle piece has been properly fit into the developing scene, it has been a benefit to me, despite the ugliness of my experiences. In addition, steadily turning unknowns to knowns brings me clarity both about myself and my actions/reactions, but also about others.  It has confirmed to me that the disorders do exist in these particular people, and that others were recruited by the disordered to play certain roles.

Having been here on Out of the FOG for years, i quickly became aware that the PD playbook is the same, and that PD's are all about building a facade-self using others, because there is no self within them. The others can be Flying Monkeys, Golden Children, Scapegoats, Invisible Children, Enablers, Victims, Persecutors, Rescuers, others?.  All the roles in the PD's scripted play are assigned by the PD to build the facade story, allowing them to hide behind all these characters. The characters together, along with the story, form the PD's 'self'. 

Therefore, I have learned to embrace the newly discovered puzzle pieces that help me further understand the developing image.  For me, further knowledge helps me solidify the roles and helps me know that its NOT ME.  I may have played many assigned and altering roles for a long period when in the FOG, but now out, I understand the characters; i understand the script; i understand the facade scenery backdrops used to set the story in which I, and my loved ones, have been involved. 

There is nothing I can do about the past, but there is something I can do about the future, and Im writing my own script, regardless of what any other adult desires.  They are adults and must discover their roles (past, present and future) on their own.  I will not be in their play, unless I desire a role.  I will allow developing knowns to further provide me understanding, so I can better protect and provide for myself going forward. 

Again, sorry you are hurting,

SoT

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi Pepin. I'm sorry. This stuff does hurt.

My own disordered grandmother had a lot in common with your MiL, which I've written about before. The illiteracy piece too. It was acknowledged that she didn't get much schooling, but she also never tried. She was extremely fearful and agoraphobic and never learned to read, manage money, drive, make decent food...

But it was never openly admitted that she could not read. I have a clear memory of being a small child asking her to read me a story. She said her eyes weren't so good and she couldn't see the small print. So I found a picture book with larger print. I got spanked by my father (her son). It was left to me to figure out that I couldn't ask her to read to me. Grandpa's skills were also questionable, but he learned enough to hold a job and be more or less functional.

My grandparents were of the WWII generation and they did in fact meet in a "camp" in Europe. I heard enough about my grandmother's childhood to figure out she was abused and poverty-stricken and ran away from home, only to be captured in the war. She was "rescued" by my grandfather, who also abused her.

In the dependent personality disorder, the person has very little self-agency. They think they need someone to do just about anything for them, and even asking directly is too hard. Perpetually a victim. If she didn't like the brand of cereal my grandfather bought she would complain about it to me, a child, but "Oh, you can't tell him. He doesn't eat it so I'll just have to." Really messed up stuff.

My mother, who admittedly is also disordered, but not of the same sort, was a major threat to my grandmother. She did not understand and wouldn't play along with grandma's endless self-pity. She would challenge the cereal thing. And many things, but we'll go with that one. She would say, "Why don't we teach you to drive and you can go to the store and choose your cereal all by yourself! Or you can go to the store with Joe instead of just sit at home!" Of course that was a non-starter and my grandmother and my mother resented each other even more. Grandma had no interest in changing the steps to the dance. Eventually the two women got locked in their own sort of dance where each was the victim of the other and they both got some sick righteous indignation supply from each other.

Christmas visits were fun, let me tell ya.

I couldn't agree more with SoT's conclusions. Now that she is gone it's even easier for you to be Sir Not Appearing in This Film. MiL's drama is done, and it's for you and your DH to choose individually what you will take away from it. Your "role" now is to be honest with yourself, put your kids first, and take good care of you. You can be honest about your feelings about your husband and take space from him to grieve and decide what you are hoping for in this next piece of your life. You can also take a break when the healing work gets to be too much.

Are you seeing a therapist now? You have so much to work through.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Pepin,

This stuff you are working through is deep stuff. I agree with what the others have shared too.

We focus a lot on their behaviours - and understanding those is definitely important in my view as well. How they may have had shame around illiteracy or other issues they had in their own life, or longstanding issues they covered up instead of addressing.

Like you said, a lot of your time was devoted to managing or dealing with all sorts of behaviours from her over the years. It's ok to feel angry about that (I just watched a video about anger yesterday!).

I do think there is something to this - reaching the chronological age that someone else was at when they treated us badly. We sorta stand back and think, whoa, that person was the same age as I am now, and they had not learned a damn thing about how to behave! It can be an emotional part of the healing process. I think that is because we realize how different they actually were.

Do you feel that this was a sort of betrayal or injustice? That she treated females poorly, and expected others to treat her well? And that this is so hard to accept, given that in a patriarchy, women should probably support each other? Seeing her ignore the accomplishments of female children is a pretty big sign that she had resentment or other issues she didn't address.

I am now sure, at my age, that there are many different ways that women deal with life. Some of them fight for a sense of self and some don't. Some go into waif mode as they age. It could happen at 50, or earlier or later.

You're probably onto something regarding how her job gave her a sense of validation or an idea of who she was - a persona, and that once she retired, that persona wasn't there anymore. I sometimes wonder what someone was like at 25 - when they were young and getting more attention and validation. I agree with you - the CN was probably there all along and we can't time travel to see how it was there way before we ever met them.

Using Jungian ideas here, she probably couldn't do much "shadow work" or look at how to outgrow some of those immature behaviours. It is sad to say but I guess some women find that becoming waif like - it gives them a persona to lean into after the attention (from their youth, or their job) has gone away.

You're not going to age like her, you're not like her. I do suspect that when we get to the age where we saw them behave so poorly, it's part of another layer of individuating work for us. We have to feel how different we are from the CN we may have given much attention to, or we feel exploited or betrayed by. I think we might learn something very important our ourselves when we are willing to examine these things the way that you are examining them. As someone who tried for years to bond to a MIL that I had nothing in common with, I had to work really hard to understand what had happened there. I had to do what you are doing, and really examine it, understand it, make sense of it, make some peace with it.

Do you think there is something about the "helpless lady" act that goes against your beliefs about how adults should behave? If you were expected to be very capable as a child, then maybe any adult who pulls the "helpless lady" act might grate your nerves (understandably). I find that those of us who had to grow up really fast, can only take so much of that stuff when we see it in others. I've had moments of feeling very resentful towards adults my age or older who try to pull that "waif" stuff.

Trees

[Poison Ivy]

I think that it's not good for families to keep secrets. Several negative things have happened in my family over the decades and, with only one exception, I appreciate that I learned about these things when I did.

Things that I was told that have helped me make sense of my family and myself: my grandfather, who molested me when I was a teenager, abused my grandmother; my mom has had nearly life-long mental illness struggles, including receiving electroshock treatment before me or my siblings were boh and being hospitalized after my birth for postpartum depression; my father broke away from his family's religion but his family did not disown him. These are only a few; I knew all or most of these by the time I was in my late teens.

The exception was my father telling me when I was about 10 years old that one of his aunts had committed suicide. My father wasn't trying to damage me; he truly thought I was old enough to hear this information, probably because I was smart and interested in our "family tree."

[Pepin]

Was it laziness or gradual dependence on everyone for everything.....I don't know.

Yeah...according to BIL (DH's brother), he seemed to feel that CN MIL was becoming lazy.  And he had every right to reveal this to me in conversation -- because he knew how she felt about him.  CN MIL was notorious for complaining to anyone that was within earshot that her son didn't make the time to call her or visit enough.  Bro had a lot on his plate and was present when he could be.  It was never a diss to his mother....and the phone works both ways.  Texting would have been better but she was incapable of doing that --- per the main theme of my original post.  There was probably some portion of gradual dependence once she hung up the car keys but everything else -- no way.  Laziness.

I think that it's not good for families to keep secrets. Several negative things have happened in my family over the decades and, with only one exception, I appreciate that I learned about these things when I did.

I am in total agreement with you on this.  Even I should have known better about keeping it zipped with the other secrets that I knew about MIL.  I feel absolutely gross about it.  I knew exactly how CN MIL structured her estate plans and was quietly stunned for years.  It wasn't my business.  But.  Family members were hurt and betrayed.  And I feel horrible having been linked to that even though I was not directly on the receiving end for a dime.

I do think there is something to this - reaching the chronological age that someone else was at when they treated us badly. We sorta stand back and think, whoa, that person was the same age as I am now, and they had not learned a damn thing about how to behave! It can be an emotional part of the healing process. I think that is because we realize how different they actually were.

Do you feel that this was a sort of betrayal or injustice? That she treated females poorly, and expected others to treat her well? And that this is so hard to accept, given that in a patriarchy, women should probably support each other? Seeing her ignore the accomplishments of female children is a pretty big sign that she had resentment or other issues she didn't address.
.....

Do you think there is something about the "helpless lady" act that goes against your beliefs about how adults should behave? If you were expected to be very capable as a child, then maybe any adult who pulls the "helpless lady" act might grate your nerves (understandably). I find that those of us who had to grow up really fast, can only take so much of that stuff when we see it in others. I've had moments of feeling very resentful towards adults my age or older who try to pull that "waif" stuff.

Yes!  As I have learned over the years, hitting any sort of milestone has been triggering.  Perhaps this is why how she operated at that age bothers me so much.  I just cannot fathom behaving like that - nor can I believe that anyone else my age at the moment would want to be like that.

Like DH, I was heavily parentified.  I was not allowed to be helpless.  I even get angry with myself when I feel helpless - but it is really just that I need to break things down into smaller bits and work on those first.  I actually don't know any women in my circle that are waify.  Not one.  A few have some shortcomings but don't we all?  No one can be a superstar at everything.  But with CN MIL I had moments of: how is it that you have lived as long as you have operating the way that you do? 

But it was never openly admitted that she could not read. I have a clear memory of being a small child asking her to read me a story. She said her eyes weren't so good and she couldn't see the small print. So I found a picture book with larger print. I got spanked by my father (her son). It was left to me to figure out that I couldn't ask her to read to me. Grandpa's skills were also questionable, but he learned enough to hold a job and be more or less functional.
....

In the dependent personality disorder, the person has very little self-agency. They think they need someone to do just about anything for them, and even asking directly is too hard. Perpetually a victim. If she didn't like the brand of cereal my grandfather bought she would complain about it to me, a child, but "Oh, you can't tell him. He doesn't eat it so I'll just have to." Really messed up stuff.
....

I couldn't agree more with SoT's conclusions. Now that she is gone it's even easier for you to be Sir Not Appearing in This Film. MiL's drama is done, and it's for you and your DH to choose individually what you will take away from it. Your "role" now is to be honest with yourself, put your kids first, and take good care of you. You can be honest about your feelings about your husband and take space from him to grieve and decide what you are hoping for in this next piece of your life. You can also take a break when the healing work gets to be too much.

Are you seeing a therapist now? You have so much to work through.

The claiming of poor eyesight was literally every single visit with CN MIL.  She'd adjust her glasses and then say as she attempted to go through the pile of mail on the table in front of her: my eyesight is not so good.  And I was always thinking, why y'all not go get some better glasses or readers then?  I realize now that her words were a lie.  I can't believe you got spanked, that is horrible.

As far as being dependent -- she subscribed to having no self agency when it came to anyone else outside of her children.  With her children, she would spout off demands for them to fulfill.  When countered with, why don't you hire someone, the response was always the same: too expensive.  It was not too expensive and I know all the details of her financials.  Its that she didn't know how to use the phone book and then the internet.  Even word of mouth amongst her own peers was a no go when needing help.  She just wanted her children to do it.

I am not currently working with a therapist.  Saw one some years ago and then quit when I learned that CN MIL and DH were enmeshed.  Literally almost lost it at that session and refused to book another.  I literally was making plans to leave DH and then reconsidered knowing that he would have subject our kids more to CN MIL and I would never be able to live with myself if that happened.  I stayed.  And swallowed everything I hated about her (and even DH) to survive.  And I started setting boundaries and deal breakers and it showed me exactly who she was.....and sadly DH.  And that made me even more upset about the situation.  Eventually, others in the extended family started speaking up and that somewhat quelled my anger.  I felt some relief and validation for my own personal suffering.  Aside from that, I have been an avid listener to a number of podcasts that I used to pound out on a daily basis -- until CN MIL passed.  I had to take a break and have silence inside my head.  And this silence has started me thinking about unfinished business all over again in order to move on.  I have three books that I am working through.  Finished Homecoming by Thema Bryant-Davis last night.  Next is Codependent no more by Melody Beattie and then The PTSD sourcebook by Glenn Schiraldi. 

Thank you everyone for your kindness and your caring.  It's going to take some time to dump nearly 25 years with an abusive MIL.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Pepin,

You wrote:  "It's going to take some time to dump nearly 25 years with an abusive MIL."

I personally do not believe I will be able to "dump" any of my decades of time with my two PD people.  My history is just my history and all of it has shaped my mind and body.  I also don't even desire to focus on trying to reverse/dump my past.  I believe that my focus on the past is allowing the PD's (even when my uPDf passes) to play an active role in my future. 

I like to think of my mind and body as a hard-drive.  All of us tech-device users like to periodically clear out hard-drive space to make room for the new.  But when freeing up disc space, we actually dont "dump" or erase anything.  Instead, we simply authorize a portion of the drive to be overwritten.  Authorizing doesn't overwrite anything, it only allows us to begin adding new, to take the place of the old.   

Therefore, im not going to give my PD's any additional amount of my time and energy, but allow my present and future to begin the steady overwriting.  That way, i am focusing on the present and future only.  Instead of trying to "dump" the past, would you consider mentally letting the past go, and authorize your mind and body to focus on building present and future, over the past experiences? 

Your deceased CN MIL doesn't deserve any more of your time and energy.  Her past in your life deserves to be simply authorized by you for overwriting, and then Pepin begins from today forward, simply by living Pepin's life, as Pepin desires.  Over time I believe we will increasingly forget that we are actually overwriting and healing will then be a steady process vs a frustrating desire to heal quickly.  I am on the very front end of my overwriting journey and my past will just have to ride along while I build the future in its place. 

SoT

[Pepin]

I like to think of my mind and body as a hard-drive.  All of us tech-device users like to periodically clear out hard-drive space to make room for the new.  But when freeing up disc space, we actually dont "dump" or erase anything.  Instead, we simply authorize a portion of the drive to be overwritten.  Authorizing doesn't overwrite anything, it only allows us to begin adding new, to take the place of the old.   
.....

Your deceased CN MIL doesn't deserve any more of your time and energy.  Her past in your life deserves to be simply authorized by you for overwriting, and then Pepin begins from today forward, simply by living Pepin's life, as Pepin desires.  Over time I believe we will increasingly forget that we are actually overwriting and healing will then be a steady process vs a frustrating desire to heal quickly.  I am on the very front end of my overwriting journey and my past will just have to ride along while I build the future in its place. 

SoT

Yes, what you wrote was more eloquent than what I wrote.  I have been so fired up lately during this phase of healing -- trying to make sense of things that I didn't understand or let slide.  I went through similar with NF.  There was a period of years where I would bounce back and forth between anger and healing.  Without the anger, I couldn't make progress.  He was obviously in my life longer than CN MIL and it took a lot of work to move on from him.  With CN MIL, it is a little bit different because my relationship with her was of adults whereas with NF it was parent/child.  And then there is DH who is also caught in the middle of my angst with CN MIL --- a rather complex scenario.  It was consoling the other day to hear one of my adults kids say: I think dad needs therapy.  Correct!  He absolutely does need therapy - if only he understood what the problem was though.  Or maybe he is afraid?  I don't know.  Being the hero was his means of survival, yet he missed out on so much.  Due to him feeling embarrassed about his mother and her struggles, he now has no sense of self.  Everyone else around DH seems secure in their daily activities.  We all have things to do that we commit to.  He kind of only has work....because his "extra curricular activities"  encompassed caring for his mother.  I've literally picked up everything else for him because someone has to do it.  But.  I'm getting annoyed with this because it is time for him to start chipping in.  The only silver line in doing what I've been doing is that is is both fulfilling and it keeps my mind off of CN MIL.  I'm seriously proud of myself for what I can do and have accomplished with my life to date.  I stay in my lane and I care deeply about those around me that I enjoy being with.  And being down one PD is a blessing...   

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I'm glad you're down one PD, Pepin!  And sorry about how hard it is to come to terms with MiL and the part DH played in that and the cost to you and your kids.  Sometimes I find enablers almost as exasperating as pwPD's.

SoT, I love your analogy of the overwriting.  I'm going to remember that.  I think it even correlates well with the actual physiological changes the brain makes as we learn new ways of being.

[SonofThunder]

I think it even correlates well with the actual physiological changes the brain makes as we learn new ways of being.

L2BF,

I agree!  Imo, it also takes so much of the pressure off of me believing I must heal BEFORE "learning new ways of being".  I will simply let my new life steadily overwrite my past life and accept my past life is just a part of my very real experience history. Therefore my past must come along for the ride, but get more statistically insignificant as time progresses.  I will accept it's presence, but proactively work on having it sit quietly for the ride.   

Its similar to my having been raised in a town for 18 years.  Then, I go off to college in a town in another part of the country and reside there for decades.  In the 19th year of living elsewhere, someone asks me "where am I from?"  Statistically I am greater 'from' the new town.  The longer I live there, the greater I am 'from' the new town, and my new town experiences are my "new ways of being" and my first 18 years become statistically smaller.  But, my first 18 years certainly shaped part of who I am, but are playing statistically less of a role as each year progresses. 

I believe we who are here at Out of the FOG are also using our difficult past experiences to come alongside others, in community, for the benefit of community and ourselves.  This is a wonderful community and we are all helping each other to wrap our heads around our experiences and encourage each other to "learn new ways of being".

Therefore, back to Pepin's post, its good to read that Pepin is able to wrap her head around the entirety of her past, which may help her in moving steadily forward in making new experiences for herself. 

SoT

[Pepin]

I think it even correlates well with the actual physiological changes the brain makes as we learn new ways of being.

Its similar to my having been raised in a town for 18 years.  Then, I go off to college in a town in another part of the country and reside there for decades.  In the 19th year of living elsewhere, someone asks me "where am I from?"  Statistically I am greater 'from' the new town.  The longer I live there, the greater I am 'from' the new town, and my new town experiences are my "new ways of being" and my first 18 years become statistically smaller.  But, my first 18 years certainly shaped part of who I am, but are playing statistically less of a role as each year progresses. 

I believe we who are here at Out of the FOG are also using our difficult past experiences to come alongside others, in community, for the benefit of community and ourselves.  This is a wonderful community and we are all helping each other to wrap our heads around our experiences and encourage each other to "learn new ways of being".

Incredibly wise and I can relate to having lived longer away from home in a different area than when I was at home...I know where my roots are from but when recently visiting, I felt somewhat out of place.  Much had changed....lots of good change though.  And sometimes I am sad that I don't get to have that where I live now.

Where I live now has been a challenge.  It never felt like it belonged to DH or me because we had to share it with CN MIL.  I often wonder what it would have been like if we had chosen to live farther away on our own -- and how we would have managed with young kids.  I am certain that we would have flourished and likely have been a tighter nuclear family without a meddling MIL.  And here we are without her.....free to do whatever we like with our time.  This is both anxiety inducing and exciting.  And it also is embedded with a fair amount of grief for what we could have had...should have had.  The past cannot be undone.  Just learned from and as you say, overwritten after processing.  I am excited for this part.  DH and I are at the top of the mountain and can do whatever we want. 

[SonofThunder]

I think it even correlates well with the actual physiological changes the brain makes as we learn new ways of being.

Its similar to my having been raised in a town for 18 years.  Then, I go off to college in a town in another part of the country and reside there for decades.  In the 19th year of living elsewhere, someone asks me "where am I from?"  Statistically I am greater 'from' the new town.  The longer I live there, the greater I am 'from' the new town, and my new town experiences are my "new ways of being" and my first 18 years become statistically smaller.  But, my first 18 years certainly shaped part of who I am, but are playing statistically less of a role as each year progresses. 

I believe we who are here at Out of the FOG are also using our difficult past experiences to come alongside others, in community, for the benefit of community and ourselves.  This is a wonderful community and we are all helping each other to wrap our heads around our experiences and encourage each other to "learn new ways of being".

Incredibly wise and I can relate to having lived longer away from home in a different area than when I was at home...I know where my roots are from but when recently visiting, I felt somewhat out of place.  Much had changed....lots of good change though.  And sometimes I am sad that I don't get to have that where I live now.

Where I live now has been a challenge.  It never felt like it belonged to DH or me because we had to share it with CN MIL.  I often wonder what it would have been like if we had chosen to live farther away on our own -- and how we would have managed with young kids.  I am certain that we would have flourished and likely have been a tighter nuclear family without a meddling MIL.  And here we are without her.....free to do whatever we like with our time.  This is both anxiety inducing and exciting.  And it also is embedded with a fair amount of grief for what we could have had...should have had.  The past cannot be undone.  Just learned from and as you say, overwritten after processing.  I am excited for this part.  DH and I are at the top of the mountain and can do whatever we want.

Pepin,

Glad to read that ending optimism!  If you and DH are unable to live elsewhere and start fresh in a new town, are there new hobbies or unfulfilled daydreams that each of you may have, that have not been attempted because time has been consumed by the in-laws and DH's parental hand-holding? 

Could these new adventures be a catalyst for proactive overwriting of the past for both of you, and help solidify your top-of-the-mountain enthusiasm? 

SoT

[Rose1]

Ex mil was some sort of pd and probably bi polar. This was a huge secret. Never go to the doctor and get diagnosed for sure.

Once it became obvious that exbpdh had the above it became more obvious his mother had the same but was extremely low functioning.
She was however put on the pedestal of the family brain and and a very smart woman despite all evidence to the contrary. I lived and put up with the pressure to become her new servant for about 10 years before I had enough.
Once I stopped she turned on me until eventually her and enfil convinced their son of my failings and he left to go live with them at age 50.

She had a brain injury acquired in her teens and that was part of the problem as was her abusive home life. we never had a straight story so don't know the exact circumstances surrounding any of it.


While she was very determined and coped in her young days, leaving home at 17, in her later years from when I knew her from about 50 years old she told us she would be in a wheelchair soon (that took another 35 years), needed help around the house. Wandered around all day shopping for entertainment and  busibodied in my house attempting to control everything she could.
She was sweeping the garage floor once (because no one does a job as well as yourself and obviously I didn't) and I found her leaning on the broom staring into space. She'd been there like that for at least 10 minutes.

I think most of her time was spent covering up her issues, convincing her son and husband she was a brilliant hard worker and trying to get others to do stuff for her.
My problem was I didnt believe it