Weird Day - Need Some Input

[JustKeepTrying]

This fall I had a fairly traumatic event that sent me spiraling and my PTSD was out of control - walking daymares and waking up screaming at night - horrific.  Finally got in to see my T and had an EMDR session addressing the worst with my ex.  Today my ex texted about our youngest and in the past that would have sent me spiraling - triggered and just struggling for days - but no, I'm not.  I looked at it with cool detachment and addressed the problem and that was that.  I then realized that I had not thought of him for days!  Days! 

And then this happened - I have been venturing slowly into the dating world - never thought I would after 30 years - but with my therapists encouragement I gave it a go this past summer/fall.  And I journaled the entire experience.  With my T's help today, I reviewed my journal entries to see if there were patterns; concerns; feelings or anything that came up that should be addressed.  I guess looking for common triggers, etc. 

And here is where it gets interesting - there were a few gentlemen that I had a couple dates where red flags popped as the relationship progressed.  I broke it off with each of them but in my journals I kept referencing this feeling of being captured - like a butterfly who they enjoyed watching but wanted to put in a jar.  I hadn't realized that I experienced that feeling each time or wrote it down. But remember it distinctly with each of  them and with my ex. It's like they look at you like you are this thing to posses or harness or something.  A sort of detached bemusement mixed with chilled disdain under a veneer of politeness.  Chilling.

I am sharing this because it's a feeling I think we all have felt.  I know that I was concerned I would get into another bad relationship - but this feeling was a precursor to the red flags I spotted.  So I thought I would share and see if anyone knows what I'm talking about - whether in a romantic  situation or friendship or work?  Thanks

[SonofThunder]

Hello JKT,

I enjoy deep conversation, so I will reply from a male perspective, but also from a perspective of having spent many decades with PD's. 

My opinion is that a PD's entire objective is self-serving; finding supply to host their emotions and other needs because they have no ability to host their own.  Therefore, my experiences, both with a uPDf and uPDw are that of being used.  I believe I am long-term emotionally damaged by a lifetime of this behavior, therefore I do not trust the motives of others.  Therefore also, I have chosen to remain single the rest of my life, yet enjoy the company, attributes and perspectives of both females and males.  So friendship is going to be my goal going forward.   

From a male perspective: 

Having been a college man who 'played the field' extensively, along with my other male friends, the dating scene in my 20's was very similar to fishing.  I found it very common in my circle of male friends, to head out for a weekend of socializing, and then to proudly discuss and compare what successes we had in meeting women.  I cannot speak for the female experience, but males acquiring short or long-term 'arm-candy' was a very common experience for me.  I also have seen this mindset continued in both my uPDf and FIL, both in their 80's, weirdly believing they are still capable of landing a trophy fish. 

Back to that PD perspective, my father used both of us children and my mother, for his public display 'trophies', as he covertly pushed and required her and us to become what HE wanted, regardless of our natural inclinations or interests.  Imo, my uPDw did the exact same thing. 

Therefore again, I am now extremely high-radar to these behaviors.  Imo, I'm not a good dating candidate, because i just don't trust the motives of other humans, and I have probably not experienced, therefore understand, how to be loved unconditionally, except by my experiences with my pets.  I am looking forward to friendships, and luckily I am a nature/nurture introvert, so I can also be my own companion.

SoT

[JustKeepTrying]

SOT - I hope someday, that out in the wild, you will meet someone who does love unconditionally and will see you for the warm, compassionate, erudite human you are. 

As for your comparison of arm candy to my butterfly, you are right and I hadn't thought of that.  It is as if they are judging you on how you look on them in public.  Ugh.  I see so many things my ex now did to garner either sympathy or admiration or something to fuel him.  The further I am from him, the more I disengage and process the emotion and trauma - the more I forget.  The more I need to forget. 

This is a fine balance of walking a line of need to protect myself and need to be in the world authentically.

There is one thing I discovered though - and perhaps it can help you - I do have room for another person in my life - I spotted the red flags and moved on gracefully - and I managed massive triggers that arose  from dating - and the core realization that at this point in my life, any relationship does not have to be the traditional relationship I embodied in the past  - marriage, etc.  It. can be what I want - what we need - and flex to fit our needs.  While still embracing freedom, compassion and love.  I don't know if I will ever find that but it's good to know that I have that capacity.  Granted, it's taken five solid years of work with a therapist to get here.

[SonofThunder]

JKT, thank you for kindness and warm wishes. 

I fully understand your comment "... a fine balance of walking a line of need to protect myself and need to be in the world authentically."  Yes, a very fine balance indeed. 

Im sorry that you are experiencing your 'butterfly in a jar' feelings in dating, and im sorry that my gender can make females feel this way (PD or no PD).  Again, im probably guilty of it also in my 20's, and it seemed at the time, the normal thing to do for college age men and women.

It was so surprising, when I much later in life, exited the fog through educated awareness, that I had actually been the 'butterfly in a jar'  the entire time, with the PD's in my life, yet i didn't even know I had been captured!  Rather, I thought the drama, confusion and cycle behaviors were just unfortunate back-to-back circumstances.  I did not know that my childhood experiences had a very definite connection to my choice in a spouse.

Im glad for you that you are open to another person in your life and I wish you the very best.  Ive done a considerable amount of pondering on the subject and now, knowing myself the way I do, i will simply settle with friendships of both genders.  I find humans fascinating (in general);  the good and the bad.  I will just continue to be a wise observer.   

I sometimes compare my desires to gardening.  At one point in my life, i enjoyed the hard work, focused care, ups/downs, wins/losses of raising and developing a beautiful variety of plants in a very relaxing garden area.  But now, im simply going to flutter around to different climates and behold the beautifully manicured arboretums, appreciating the wonderful array of plant materials that have been well-tended by other hard working people.  I am happy to walk among and behold the flowers all around me, but i dont desire to once again have the responsibility of my own garden.  I am going to be your 'butterfly' set free for the second (hopefully half 😂) of life. 

Im also very sorry you experienced the behaviors of your ex and that you suffer triggers now as a result.  Again, my hope for you is that you meet a companion who will encourage you to continue to spread your wings a fly into new experiences, while soaring around together as two unique individual butterflies, exploring and sharing together. 

SoT

[pianissimo]

I relate to what you mention but I'm not sure if I understand it correctly.

"feeling of being captured"

ın similar situations, I have this feeling like I'm walking into a trap.

"It's like they look at you like you are this thing to posses or harness or something."

For me, this feels like they have a role in their head that they think I will be perfect for, and that I won't exist outside of that role.

So, at this point, I'm pretty sure these are gut feelings. Over time, I realized, I feel different depending on whether the person is being an idiot or threatening.
Something that was confusing to me was, in these moments, it also feels like I'm about to be consumed, swallowed whole. I can trace this feeling to my mother. So, I don't know if those people are giving this vibe too or if the fear is triggering my experiences with my mother.

Since I found out about personality disorders and how they play out in the family, I've been feeling unsafe in general, so I find these kinds of people more triggering than I used to. I straight out become terrified.

[treesgrowslowly]

Wonderful discussion here. Thanks both of you for posting.

It reminds me of that saying, once bitten twice shy...I think that after surviving PD abuse, we are not in any hurry to experience it again.

I think it is a sad truth that a lot of people, PD or not, are looking for what others can do for them. There are people who go into dating and they have a very detailed view of what they want their future partner to do for them. That feeling that someone wants to trap you or own you is real. I suspect that it was telegraphed in some things they said or did. And you picked up on it.

I think that as we recover from PD abuse, we trust our instincts again and so that feeling you had should be trusted.

I absolutely love that you journaled about the dates. What a great way to help yourself as you meet these new people and figure out if they are a fit or not for you. I hope you do meet someone who understands where you're coming from. It sounds like you're coming from a thoughtful place.

Trees

[JustKeepTrying]

SOT - Thank you for your wise counsel my friend.

Pianissimo - Yes! I too can trace these feelings to my childhood.  I was this perfect blonde little girl that was often trotted out and treated like an object with no agent over my own body.  I was beat up by my brother and my mother refused to listen.  And my narc sister added to the chaos. All of it led to my ex and decades of abuse.  As I go through therapy, grow, learn and put together the pieces - I am reminded often that the decisions I made were abased on the information I had at the time.  We didn't even have the language back then.  Narcissim was abased on the greek god Narcissa - and discussed in terms of literature.  Not actual people.

So today, as I try to follow the advice and listen to my body and feelings - things that I supressed and ignored for decades - I am trying to put a language to it - label it and make sense out of it.  So Pianissimo - you are spot on.

TGS - It's difficult trusting your own instincts again isn't it.  Thank you - it is a thoughtful place - one of quiet contemplation that brings me closer and closer to peace that I crave.

[SonofThunder]

JKT, your writing is a joy to read.  You wrote:

"All of it led to my ex and decades of abuse.  As I go through therapy, grow, learn and put together the pieces - I am reminded often that the decisions I made were based on the information I had at the time.  We didn't even have the language back then."

Those three sentence's truth is imo, so very important for multiple reasons.  First, the experience of "all of it".  Those three words span a long period of time and imo, are similar to children being raised to adulthood inside the confines and manipulative gaslighting of a cult compound.  Its all I knew and back then, it was my 'normal'.  I was a conditioned candidate for more of the same. 

Therefore its so understandable to read your writing about your very high-radar feelings on these dating experiences, where you pick up the nuances of narcissistic behaviors; the prized butterfly in a jar; the self-serving arm candy.  Its also so understandable that the once-normalized behaviors of our FOO's and our spouses, come into clear view in the light of our education and awareness.  As we steadily "put together the pieces" using the now-available education and variety of resources, we realize how twisted the "all of it" was.  The three C's rule is applicable to my knocking the dirt of the past off my sandals, and making my way optimistically forward to the next town on my life improving itinerary. 

Lastly, your point made reminds me once again, that I am living in the generation where the knowledge, psychological awareness and focus on narcissistic human traits and all of the personality disorders is exploding. I am grateful to be a part of the generation that is able to "put together the pieces".  Generations prior to me, had similar human experiences but no real answers and limited resources.  How awful and confusing to spend one's entire life in the FOG. 

Wishing you that peace you crave and grateful for Out of the FOG and my comrades.

SoT

[treesgrowslowly]

 

Sometimes I remind myself of how much more is going on here when we heal. Each of one of us, is like one flower in a garden, growing and trying to bloom. It's valuable to step back sometimes and see 'the forest for the trees' (to mix my metaphors lol).

There's so much that previous generations either could not or would not heal from. I agree with SoT, we are living in the age where knowledge is exploding and those of us who are getting Out of the FOG are getting out of "all of it" and "putting the pieces together" as you both write so well about here.

The way that some men treat women is also up for change - and those of us who are older can recall back to when these dynamics were rarely spoken of at all - when it was even more taboo to discuss the way in which some men treated women - when those women felt like they were seen as arm candy , or butterflies to be captured and trapped (into a domestic lifestyle or some other lifestyle she didn't really want). I truly believe those dynamics are changing slowly as well, but like coming Out of the FOG, it is a "one person at a time" prospect.

Becoming very aware of how we want to be treated in the future is a 'side effect' of doing this Out of the FOG work - or so I've realized. We want to be treated with a lot of respect I think , and if we can't find that in the people we meet, once we are Out of the FOG, as SoT writes about here and in other threads, it is ok to look at life and take in friendships as they come to us, and if they don't, they don't.

The lifestyle of bonding to someone who might put us back into FOG is no longer attractive to us on a gut level - something else we probably didn't know was going to become so rooted in our being...back when we took our first steps away from the FOG and PD dramas.

We have to hold out hope that we will meet people who 'get' where we're coming from. And (maybe even more importantly) we have to hold onto our own knowledge that we will be ok if that person doesn't show up, or shows up in our life in a way that we didn't expect, or maybe doesn't even fit with where we find ourselves.

Don't lose sight of the fact that you saw yourself as a butterfly. That's a real gift here - you now see yourself to be fully capable of emotional freedom - depicted in your mind as a butterfly joyfully buzzing around the garden...and your gut is telling you what to do when you encounter those people who don't know how to cherish and value a butterfly unless they can capture it in a jar - thus stealing it's joy of flight.

Trees

[SonofThunder]

Sometimes I remind myself of how much more is going on here when we heal. Each of one of us, is like one flower in a garden, growing and trying to bloom. It's valuable to step back sometimes and see 'the forest for the trees' (to mix my metaphors lol).

There's so much that previous generations either could not or would not heal from. I agree with SoT, we are living in the age where knowledge is exploding and those of us who are getting Out of the FOG are getting out of "all of it" and "putting the pieces together" as you both write so well about here.

The way that some men treat women is also up for change - and those of us who are older can recall back to when these dynamics were rarely spoken of at all - when it was even more taboo to discuss the way in which some men treated women - when those women felt like they were seen as arm candy , or butterflies to be captured and trapped (into a domestic lifestyle or some other lifestyle she didn't really want). I truly believe those dynamics are changing slowly as well, but like coming Out of the FOG, it is a "one person at a time" prospect.

Becoming very aware of how we want to be treated in the future is a 'side effect' of doing this Out of the FOG work - or so I've realized. We want to be treated with a lot of respect I think , and if we can't find that in the people we meet, once we are Out of the FOG, as SoT writes about here and in other threads, it is ok to look at life and take in friendships as they come to us, and if they don't, they don't.

The lifestyle of bonding to someone who might put us back into FOG is no longer attractive to us on a gut level - something else we probably didn't know was going to become so rooted in our being...back when we took our first steps away from the FOG and PD dramas.

We have to hold out hope that we will meet people who 'get' where we're coming from. And (maybe even more importantly) we have to hold onto our own knowledge that we will be ok if that person doesn't show up, or shows up in our life in a way that we didn't expect, or maybe doesn't even fit with where we find ourselves.

Don't lose sight of the fact that you saw yourself as a butterfly. That's a real gift here - you now see yourself to be fully capable of emotional freedom - depicted in your mind as a butterfly joyfully buzzing around the garden...and your gut is telling you what to do when you encounter those people who don't know how to cherish and value a butterfly unless they can capture it in a jar - thus stealing it's joy of flight.

Trees

+1

Well written and insightful.

SoT

[JustKeepTrying]

SOT, Trees,  Pianissimo - and all of my friends on here - I am so grateful for you.

[SonofThunder]

Likewise JKT!   

SoT

[pianissimo]

You too JustKeepTrying, your posts are always inspiring.

[treesgrowslowly]

 

Also over here feeling grateful for your posts and the thread you started here JKT. It is so helpful to know we are not alone in doing this work! Hope your week is going well so far. 

Trees

[JustKeepTrying]

I want to add a dimension to this discussion that I am experiencing.  I started chatting with a gentleman and he sparked my interest in our chats with his intelligence.  Witty and smart are my jam.  We moved the convo off app into phone number area.  He lives a great distance so no worries.  And he is real - a problem when on the dating apps.

Also to add deeper context, I was deleting the apps when his message/swipe came in.  I was emotionally moving on to a resignation of this is not the time for me

So this morning, when the first messages came over text and not the app, I experience that feeling of capture again.  No real basis for it.  But an intense feeling of dread, fear and desire to flee.  It was quite overwhelming at that moment.  After it passed leaving a low level of anxiety, I broke out my journal to process.

Like we learn in therapy, follow the feeling to the trigger.  And aren't we all triggered with trauma in our pasts?!  There is no basis for this to be a red flag like with the others.  But instead my own history and conditioning. 

Like SOT, P and Trees all said - it does go back beyond our ex's to FOO.  Sigh.  One good thing though, just because I am healing does not mean I have to be alone.  These things can exist simultaneously. 

Thanks for listening

[Associate of Daniel]

JKT, your last statement, just because you're healing doesn't mean you have to be alone...

My journey has taught me that a great deal of healing can only be done on our own, but a small part of it can only be done in the context of a new relationship.

At just over 10 years since my UNPD exH left, I think I've reached that point.

But I remain single for 3 reasons.

1:  I believe it would be better for ds15 for me to remain single until he is an adult and settled into independence.

2:  I've grown content with singleness.

3:  I've not come across any single men my age.

I will admit that the idea of getting involved with anyone again slightly terrifies me.  That's essentially because the only relationship I've had was with my UNPD exH.  And that was very damaging, but paradoxically,  it also doesn't really count.

I think you're very brave. And very wise to insist of yourself that you observe your reactions and respond accordingly.

All the best with your endeavours.

AOD

[Breadroll]

I tried dating, and true to form, took far too long to pull the plug.  I felt as though they wanted to take someone nice  and slowly chip away at them - to make themselves feel better in some way?

My pattern was slow acceptance of mean and subtle undermining- should have instantly called it out. , and a bizarre thing- they both used other peoples resources , including mine- in order to appear successful or generous- such as using other peoples vehicles, houses, tools, cooking, etc and both!  inviting to lunch / coffee and forgetting their wallet.  Multiple times. Am still jaw dropped that the behavior patterns were so similar. But more so that I didn't tap out after three dates, instead of persisting.

It's a year since the last dating attempt  and it feels as though  it's ok. Would rather be single and at peace. I really value the stability and dignity. Planning a single life now, think it's perhaps a privilege- a luxury .

[Associate of Daniel]

I remembered a song from a fabulous little show the other day.  The show is called "5 Guys Named Moe" and the song:  "Safe, Sane and Single."  Need I say more?!? 

AOD

[Breadroll]

Thanks so much for that link AOD - it should be an anthem! What fabulous music

[Associate of Daniel]

It's such a great little show!

I think the full chorus of that song is

"I'm safe, sane and single.  I'm on my merry way.

Yes, I'm safe, sane and single. That's how I'm gonna stay."

Ah. Yes.

AOD