Having trouble believing this is true tw: suicide

haribo_milchbaren · November 20, 2022, 02:14:01 PM

Hello, newbie here. I recently had a major spat with my spouse (that's a whole other story), and have been staying with a friend. I've had some time to decompress and process, and two friends have outright stated that they think spouse is narcissistic, and told others what has been going on, and they agree it's an unhealthy dynamic and they are worried. However I'm having trouble convincing myself that it truly is that bad. I feel like I am badmouthing spouse when I tell friends about them. There was never overt abuse. Everything felt extremely subtle. Spouse has seen psychs who have signed off on him being ok. But I realized that at my friend's I no longer feel like I'm walking on eggshells, that I can relax. Realizing that I have a strong fearful reaction when I do something "wrong", in anticipation of yelling and blaming. So I am fairly sure something is wrong, but because nothing ever seemed "that bad", I'm wondering if I should even be posting here. I also just recently come to terms that my parent likely has an undiagnosed PD, and therapist told me that everything I told them about indicated they are emotionally abusive to me. And a friend told me that children of parents with PD are more susceptible to being in a relationship with someone with a PD. I guess because it's so rare that people who don't think they have a problem don't get diagnosed with a PD, I am still questioning myself all the time. Maybe I really am the asshole. If I hadn't said/did those things, had managed my anxiety better, managed my ADHD better, it would be better, etc. I read about FOG, and I know that this absolutely applies with my parent but having an extremely difficult time rationalizing this with my spouse, as my spouse was the first one to tell me that my parent had a serious problem and even supported me through the entire process of processing that in therapy. It is such a mindf*ck. Not to mention the parent was the only one that was strongly against my relationship with my spouse since the very beginning, but I disregarded it, because, well, parent is pretty toxic.

Apparently spouse has been extremely depressed since I've been gone, and spouse has mentioned suicide once in the past when things were not going well (not directly as a threat, however it still *feels* like emotional blackmail, but I've been rationalizing that it can't be because it wasn't phrased as such). I am pretty fearful of what action to take next. I know even this is a red flag, but I can't help but think my anxiety is in overdrive and I just need to go back and be a better spouse. I have been talking myself out of posting here for days but decided to take a chance and see what people think. Soooo yeah.

SonofThunder · November 20, 2022, 03:07:24 PM

Hello haribo_milchbaren!

So sorry you are experiencing this behavior from your spouse.

First, a very warm welcome to Out of the FOG! So glad you joined us and I look forward to having you participate in our very fruitful discussions. As you may read in the Personality Disorders tab at the top, the traits many of us experience from PD's can be very similar, no matter who the PD is in our life and across many different types of disorders. Your experiences may align well with the traits of some disorders there, so I recommend you visit the Personality Disorders tab. Your experiences may align well with other's stories as well.

We all at Out of the FOG walk this PD trail together. We may find ourselves at various places along the trail vs others, but there is always a nearby campfire in which to pull up a chair and join in the wonderful discussions. While you steadily learn in order to better evaluate your own situation and your relationship, I will point you also to the Toolbox tab above. I highly recommend you spend some time in the Toolbox, absorbing the terms and apply the tools for your own self-protection and self-love.

See you around the boards and again welcome!

SoT

Gwendolyn · November 20, 2022, 03:07:49 PM

Welcome to Out of the FOG.

Second guessing yourself is so normal and familiar.

A few years back I used my phone calendar to make notes about my day with pdh ( clinically depressed alcohol abusing husband)

Entries like this.
2/10 he hardly talked to me
3/10 seems to be ignoring me
1/10 came home drunk and no texts..

You get it. Anyways after 6 months I stopped because I was getting depressed!!!
And then it hit me.
He's not a happy person and isn't much fun to be around. He is a difficult person and I don't know for sure how much more I can bend and contort to jolly him.
And that's when I went back to therapy and joined al-anon and then joined this forum after lurking for a while.

What ever you decide to do going forward I would suggest spending at least as much time wondering and worrying about yourself and your potential, your future and your happiness as you spend puzzling about him and his problems. Revisit old friends, learn a new craft or sport, read magazines for free at the library etc. Value yourself and do things to boost your own morale.

My own hubby used to say he was going to walk out onto thin ice and I used to call the local crisis centre and they had good advice. I now feel deep in my heart that I can't control him and I didn't cause his problems.

The litmus test for me is 《how happy and content do I feel on a daily basis and if he was completely out of my life...would I still have a foundation for a happy life?》.... then I keep working on my foundation and what I've found is many of my friends have gone through rough patches in their relationships and that sometimes a little break and some selfcare can help us reorient back to our own needs and wants. We start to re-prioritize ourselves and our life goals outside of 'the couple'.

There is no one answer that's right for everyone but looking after yourself will start the process of coming Out of the FOG. Be sure to review the toolbox on this website and really be kind to yourself and recognize when you feel overwhelmed and need a break (especially emotionally).

Sending encouragement.

notrightinthehead · November 20, 2022, 03:44:09 PM

Just wanted to add my welcome!
It's quite normal to question yourself. I used to think that if I was prettier, cleverer, and more successful my husband would treat me better. I used to think that because he did not hit me, he wasn't really abusing me. I learned that there are many forms of abuse and that emotional abuse can be more destructive than physical. So stick around, you are in good company.

haribo_milchbaren · November 20, 2022, 04:10:20 PM

Thanks everyone for the support. I will certainly check out the toolbox. I am planning on filing for divorce very soon, however I actually fear what may happen after that, which is why I haven't taken action yet. I am working on a plan, which is what I meant by which action to take next. But I actually fear greatly that my spouse actually won't be mentally okay if I file, and I am trying to figure out how to go about that (in a practical sense, not to mention how I can accept that whatever happens is not my fault, even if I feel like it is). We own a house together and it needs to be sold for financial and other reasons, and all my stuff is still there. I will be speaking to my therapist and a lawyer soon, so that will help, but like, I know what I need to do in my heart, but yet I'm still second guessing that this is the correct decision.

We had such great times together and I thought they were the love of my life. They made me feel so special and loved. And yet also made me feel so small and scared sometimes

I just...don't understand.

SonofThunder · November 20, 2022, 07:31:07 PM

Quote from: haribo_milchbaren on November 20, 2022, 04:10:20 PM
Thanks everyone for the support. I will certainly check out the toolbox. I am planning on filing for divorce very soon, however I actually fear what may happen after that, which is why I haven't taken action yet. I am working on a plan, which is what I meant by which action to take next. But I actually fear greatly that my spouse actually won't be mentally okay if I file, and I am trying to figure out how to go about that (in a practical sense, not to mention how I can accept that whatever happens is not my fault, even if I feel like it is). We own a house together and it needs to be sold for financial and other reasons, and all my stuff is still there. I will be speaking to my therapist and a lawyer soon, so that will help, but like, I know what I need to do in my heart, but yet I'm still second guessing that this is the correct decision. We had such great times together and I thought they were the love of my life. They made me feel so special and loved. And yet also made me feel so small and scared sometimes I just...don't understand.

haribo,

You may gain some real insight at Dr Ramani's YouTube channel. (Link below to her glossary video series).

She is a therapist, understands your/our situation very well because she lived it, got her doctorate to back it it up, and now teaches. Be prepared to feel like she's got a clear window into your life. Its great stuff! You will be validated. You are not alone. Like notright said, "you are in good company".

SoT

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3QtnfcMTMhEfRXN-Kk2vndn89nBZxKUj

NarcKiddo · November 21, 2022, 10:31:45 AM

Hi haribo, and welcome.

As a fellow child of a PD I can tell you that it is very easy to think the most awful behaviour is not "that" bad because that is all you have known for your entire life.

I second guess myself a lot but my therapist has confirmed that my uNPD mother was objectively emotionally abusive even on the basis of what I have told her so far, which is by no means all of it. Having that confirmed has helped me to take a step back and use my logical brain when my emotional brain yet again tries to persuade me I am mistaken or exaggerating.

In my experience it is most unusual for friends to be quite so categorically critical of someone's spouse and if more than one is doing so then it does bear thinking about. (That said I am a Brit and we are very reserved and unlikely to pass comment so you may need to take that last sentence with a pinch of salt.)

haribo_milchbaren · November 21, 2022, 12:10:43 PM

Quote from: NarcKiddo on November 21, 2022, 10:31:45 AM
Hi haribo, and welcome.

As a fellow child of a PD I can tell you that it is very easy to think the most awful behaviour is not "that" bad because that is all you have known for your entire life.

I second guess myself a lot but my therapist has confirmed that my uNPD mother was objectively emotionally abusive even on the basis of what I have told her so far, which is by no means all of it. Having that confirmed has helped me to take a step back and use my logical brain when my emotional brain yet again tries to persuade me I am mistaken or exaggerating.

In my experience it is most unusual for friends to be quite so categorically critical of someone's spouse and if more than one is doing so then it does bear thinking about. (That said I am a Brit and we are very reserved and unlikely to pass comment so you may need to take that last sentence with a pinch of salt.)

Thank you. When I tell people about things that happened (finally, I had been avoiding telling anyone things for years, because I didn't want them to think badly of my spouse) they are a lot more outraged than I ever was, and I'm so disturbed that my own reaction to what was going on was so mild. But at the same time, like I said, a lot of it was so subtle. For what it's worth, only one friend ever said anything to me before I had opened up to them recently about what was going on. Everyone mostly had had some poor opinion of my spouse already but had kept it to themselves. One friend said that they knew from the start it was bad but had had experience telling other friends their opinion and lost their friendship, and didn't want me to be isolated later and have no friends due to this, so didn't tell me. I bawled my eyes out hearing this. The one friend that did mention something I have avoided hanging out with for years because I didn't want them to hear anything about my spouse and form more bad opinions. I also realized that I would invite my spouse with friends and family sometimes and have my spouse act on their best behaviour to "prove" they are a good spouse. As I'm typing this I'm realizing that it is a huge red flag. But I still have trouble convincing myself that it's not my fault. I feel so broken. I have no idea how to process all of this. I've begun checking out Dr. Ramani's videos, which is ironic as my nonPD parent had linked them to me initially about my PD parent. They are so difficult to watch. And I've been trying to convince myself that since my situation doesn't match exactly that this can't possibly be the case. *sigh*. Thanks for listening

DontEngage · November 25, 2022, 05:09:09 PM

I'm a very new member myself. I recently realized that my wife has undiagnosed NPD. She's a mix between the malignant, vulnerable, and communal types so it was really easy for her to use her 'public face' around other people to keep me confused and keep other people thinking she's so wonderful. We have 3 boys together (11, 8, and 4) so I haven't made any decisions about what to do yet. I want to leave, but I won't leave them with her, and I don't know yet how realistic it is for me to leave with them and get full, or even 50/50 custody. For now, I'm basically acting. I no longer engage when she throws tantrums, or criticizes and insults me, or blames me for things I didn't do. I'm not sure if it's the healthiest approach, but I basically just say "Okay" and move on with my day. She's starting to ask "What's wrong?" or "Are we okay?" and I'm just lying. Everything's wrong. We are most definitely not okay. But in my 12 years with her, I've never brought up a legitimate concern to her and had it validated. Your comments about questioning yourself and whether you're 'really' dealing with a PD spouse resonated so much with me. I questioned and blamed myself for the last 12 years and I followed the exact pattern you described of trying to do and be just the right way so that my uNPDw would be happy or stop criticizing me or blaming me. She is so good at gaslighting that I was convinced I had the worst memory in the world. I have ADHD too so I figured I must miss a lot of things in our conversations and then I'd feel terrible for being 'so insensitive' and 'not paying attention' when she was talking. Now I know that's not the case. I realized that she doesn't say everything that she claims. Or she doesn't make sure she has my attention. Or she literally just makes things up and asserts them so forcefully that I used to believe they were true. It helped when I started objectively comparing my interactions with her against other interactions. She's isolated me so much over the years that I didn't have any consistent friend interactions, but I have consistent interactions with my clients. I meet with 4 to 8 clients a day and we talk a lot. One day I realized that I can remember specific statements and references my clients have made in sessions from months ago. I know this is accurate because when I repeat their statements or references back to them, they confirm and remember saying those things. So my memory is just fine. It's not me. I also started to realize a pattern in my daily experiences. I feel better when she isn't around. She likes to get her narcissistic supply on the phone too, and I realized I would feel like I could breathe as soon as she was on the phone. I always wanted people to come visit at the house. I don't really like entertaining people so this one confused me for a long time until it hit me that she 'behaves' herself when other people are around. I wasn't even conscious of it, but I intuitively felt emotionally safe when other people were around. Somehow, I recognized that the anger and blaming and criticism stopped when there was an audience. I used to blame myself and think that I must be a horrible husband because I didn't want to be around my wife. I thought "I must be so damaged that I can't let my walls down and feel comfortable around her". But she's the reason I have my emotional walls up.

It hurt my heart to read how much you question and blame yourself. If you're open to it, please take some time to watch Dr. Ramani's narcissism videos on YouTube. Start with her Masterclass on Narcissism. She gives all the fundamental knowledge and perspectives you need to start seeing the patterns in the narcissistic person in your life. I've been watching them for 2 weeks and everything makes so much more sense now. It's like I put on a pair of glasses and I can finally see everything accurately instead of blaming and shaming myself. In one sense, it's been very liberating to stop questioning myself all day every day. But it's also been exhausting to keep pretending while I'm figuring out what I want to do next. I'm an empath and I'm completely oriented toward being genuine and authentic in my relationships. It's almost painful to live like this, but it's still better than letting the manipulation and abuse work on me. If it weren't for my boys, I would have grabbed some clothes and just left that day I figured it out, but I won't do that to them. And I think she knows that. She knows she can use them to manipulate me. I hate that. I hate that she's willing to hurt them to hurt me or try to control me. I feel horrible for bringing them into this situation, but I didn't know what it was until just recently. I love them so much and my number one priority is protecting them as well as I can right now. I'm even starting to have conversations with the older ones and telling them that their mom's hurtful behavior is not okay and not their fault. I try to step in when I can, but it's like trying to disarm a bomb. If I step wrong, she's liable to just explode on everybody even worse. I try to live my life by looking for the best way to love people around me. I believe that anger is okay, but I don't believe that hate is a healthy thing to think or feel. But sometimes I look at her and I just hate her. I hate her so much for hurting me, but mostly for hurting my boys. I hate her for the damage she's already done to them. I have hope that they'll be able to recover and heal in the coming years, but I don't have a way to keep them totally protected right now. I hate her for making me feel powerless to protect them. And now that I understand the narcissistic abuse patterns, I recognize that the times she seems so 'loving' and 'compassionate' with me are just part of the lie. When I see what it is, I usually feel disgusted and repulsed. But there's a little part of me that still wants to feel like it's real, and that disgusts me even more, because I know it's not. If it was real, it would be consistent. It wouldn't be rare moments in between constant negativity and hurt. That's not a healthy relationship.

I hope my thoughts and feelings about my own experience can give you some feeling of being understood and validated. I can't say what the right step is for you in your life, but I am so glad that you found your way to this community. You belong here. You deserve to be heard and validated. You deserve to have people support you and care about you. You're not the asshole. You're the target and you deserve to see yourself as the kind person you really are, not the false image that's been forced on you by an abusive person. Welcome and I hope we can help you feel safe and accepted here.