A day in court

[Poison Ivy]

I would be struggling, too, if I were in this situation. DD is a preteen or teenager, right? These are hard years for any child and their parent; then throw in what has been going on in your lives. It's reasonable that you feel relatively comfortable with the custody decision, but DD probably still wants both her parents. Or maybe she doesn't. Whichever is true, she likely feels emotionally chaotic.

[Rose1]

It could be an over reaction on her part to the last few weeks stress. Completely wrong of course but her female role model is what she is currently modelling.

She needs to learn emotional control but that's not going to happen right now, its a long term therapy thing and probably more effective when others including peer pressure let her know they also agree with you.

In the meantime is there something you can do like maybe take her to the doctor to talk about her stress levels  as well as informing the school therapist?
She won't like the doctor but she may actually benefit from some temporary support and maybe a blood test to see if her adrenals are functioning correctly.

Long term stress does awful things to the body.
Apart from that it will send a clear message that her behaviour is out of control.

Just another option. This is very hard stuff because she is copying all she knows.

Just to add, she has seen this behaviour work for her mother, she shouldn't have the same experience that this behaviour is effective without consequences of some kind at some point.

[Gettintired76]

Congrats EM It looks also like the tide may be turning for with my DD as well, I pray both our dear babies come out of this as undamaged and they are loved as possible. Like the song says "On the ropes, but I'm goin' down swingin'" and i know you are too hang in there bro.

[escapingman]

After she calmed down it became clear she is being tasked by STBX, MIL and GC to fall out with me. AND she is confused. DD locked herself into the bathroom yesterday and was screaming don't hurt me and made it up like I was dangerous to her whilst recording it on her laptop. Apparently GC told her stories about me that she refuse to tell me back but it about me being abusive, I haven't seen GC for 6 months and any stories can only come from being cooked up by STBX.

Team STBX has really ramped this up and I quickly need top adapt to this new war. Since the social worker and court really don't get it I am aware of that any wobble from DD can get disastrous consequences. TBH all I want to do is to capitulate and sign myself in to hospital to be looked after, but that would most certainly make me lose DD.

[square]

Um, crap, EM.

Your DD recorded herself screaming "don't hurt me" at the behest of her mother?

Did she share those recordings with GC or anyone else? Was she on any voice call at any point?

[escapingman]

Um, crap, EM.

Your DD recorded herself screaming "don't hurt me" at the behest of her mother?

Did she share those recordings with GC or anyone else? Was she on any voice call at any point?

I had already taken her phone as I didn't trust what she was going to do and I disabled the WIFI so she couldn't get in touch with anyone. I watched the recordings and you could hardly hear me on any of them (as I wasn't trying to abuse her) but her shouting "don't hurt me" wasn't on either, but just for safety I deleted them as it looked bad from everybody's point that she locked her in the bathroom.

She is in a better state today and we have had a good chat. It seems to come to a head every time she has contact with anyone of STBX, GC or MIL. I am not sure how directed it was by STBX or if DD suddenly got real flashbacks from her mum and just acted out as if I was her.

I am an absolute wreck and I am not sure I will be able to do this fight. I really can see now that STBX was serious when she told me she will wreck my life if I divorce her.

[square]

EM, this is a terrible few days, but it will calm down again.

As long as there aren't any BS recordings in the wrong hands, this will pass.

It is alarming how she acts out after contact with her mother and I'm sure there will be a reaction next time, too. But it will get better over time. Your DD is at the age where it is the hardest. She already has the makings of someone with a lot of maturity, and she will get there soon enough.

I know you will figure out how to handle this as you have always done very competently.

[hhaw]

EM:

One thing you can count on is stbx WILL escalate and it's unlikely she'll ever ever stop if she doesn't have to, IME.

I hope you find a way to get DD the support and advocacy she needs.  What does the school counselor have to say about this?

[escapingman]

This is actually making me ill, DD is feeling it too and she is not coping well. STBX and MIL are love bombing her in a sickening way, they keep sending really creepy messages that is entirely inappropriate. How can you go from 9 months of stone walling (MIL) to tell someone they are the most gorgeous little creature in the world? All these mixed messages are really messing with her head, the poor little girl can't get her emotions right with them love bombing/hover her whilst she remember all the abuse and silent treatments. All this going on because of a social worker that are more interested in repairing the relationship between 2 abusive adults with a child instead of protecting the children involved.

[escapingman]

The impatience and entitlement is kicking in, this must surely be close to not allowed. The court order clearly states that any contact between STBX and DD has to be based on DD's wishes and taken at her pace. All contact also must be supervised by a person agreed by everyone. DD just received a message from STBX asking if she wants to meet and that it would be lovely if DD would like to call her.

[hhaw]

EM:

I used to put myself into the shoes of the overwhelmed, undertrained, not trained PD court officers listening to polar opposite sides of a case that makes zero sense to them....I decided there was no job in the system I'd want or feel competent to discern for myself.  How dreadful for them. I felt compassion for them too. 

I know there are people charged with protecting our children and they're paid to do so,but..... in the end.... a retired Judge shot straight with me about what the Court can and can't do when she entered the jury room my attorney and I were occupying during a settlement conference at the Courthouse with THAT retired Judge leading.  Picture Paula Dean bragging about having read all the blogs on our case which she considered adequate research to understand what was going on between the parties.

Ummmm....
I was horrified.

The PDs occupied the empty courtroom with the Judge going back and forth between us and you know how she entered our little jury room....
every time.....
she'd put her fingers to her temples and repeat..... "forget the best interest of the children, forget the best interest of the children."

That might sound shocking, but it was what happened.  Paula Dean knew the Court was unable to help the children and she wasn't shy about admitting it.  She made light of it.... a little joke, really.  Mind you, oiurs was the FIRST case Judge Paula dean had failed to settle for our Judge, so I have to assume PDs are sprinkled in with punitive, angry normal people arguing over tea pots, china and children.  PDs aren't so common, come to find....not in family court, it seems.

Please note, the ONLY reason I attended that meeting with my attorney was bc my attorney threatened and demeaned my prediction of the outcome..... and I was clear I didn't want to waste my limited funds screwing around with settlement conferences.... I'd already learned the hard way.  They were a waste of time, resoures and lead to re traumatizing me and my family when we were "assured" the deal "was done" only to have the PDs decided they'd "rather go to trial after all" so many times in so many other cases, so many months, dollars and nerve endings wasted. 

The good things was..... my attorney was a big enough woman to admit I'd been right, she'd been wrong and from that point on she HATED the PDs and went for their heads out of spite for having been made a fool of.  My attorney never accepted another penny up front AND she asked for my legal fees in a timely enouth manner that I COULD have reveived every penny HAD the other attorney involved shown up to the courtroom during that particular hearing.  You can't count on attorneys to do what's best for you after they've been made fools and been proven wrong after you told them and told them and told them and told them what was going to happen.....
then it happens.....
and the attorney had no REAL idea what they were up against, which is where the balance of Court Officers live too. 

Unless they've lived through a similar situation.....
unless they've spent time prosecuting every type of evil there is......
they just have no ability to understand and process the story we're telling when we show up at their door. 

The thing about Court Officers is......
they NEED our story, every story, any story to "square up."  It HAS to make sense and that's why I would have looked at my evidence prior to speaking with an attorney,  formed a believable story AROUND that evidence, then craft my case around it so people weren't spending so much time doubting and assuming I was hysterical and "the worst possible client."  My second divorce attorney said that to my face,btw.  He said he'd set an unfairly high fee to discourage my return....and he seemed so dissapointed when I returned, but I needed HIM, a  likely N,  bc he'd gotten my Judge through law school and my Judge LOVD him.  My Judge was none too bright and never missed an opportunity to display his ignorance and will to do me and my children harm, btw... always glaring at me while talking about my ASPD h's actions and threats of jail...... I think opposing counsel was golfing buddies with him and that was devastating.  Devastating top to bottom and I learned I had to combat that with the same tactics.  It worked for a while, until it didn't, then different tactics had to be sorted, and you just do your best, EM.

That's all you can do.  Nothing more.  Then put it down and go back to attuning to DD and mining the joy in  your moments with her, bc THIS MOMENT is all we have and all we'll ever have.  BTW, I think the attorneys witnessing your stbx's tantrum in the Courtroom will talk to file clerks and other judges and it will get to your Judge's ears, IME.  These are humans you're dealign with. 

I digress......

Regret of the past is wasted time, as is fearing into the future.  It just obstructs action and strategy in THIS moment, which is everything...... and at the same time nothing compared to staying attuned to your child/ren/supporters/friends.  It's an unwieldy balance and you jerk into and out of fight or flight...hopefully more quickly....more efficiently if you're practicing mindfulness and re grounding yourself into your body.  Tricking your biochemistry into releasing it's hold on you..... it's hel;pful, IME.

Your friends will help keep you level when you're dealing with new negative information, Petitions, accusations, etc. 

There will be good days and bad days and you should know you'll get through it whether you're despairing and frantic OR have the ability to put the story down and turn towards your meal, a walk in nature, a game with DD or planning and shopping for a new family tradition you agreed on with DD. 

Either way, this will end.  You might as well come out of it practicing healthy coping strategies and living your life fully, without fear.  Modeling that for your DD.  For GC when she's with you again. 

Waiting till  you're in your 50's to get therapy, figure out healthy boundaries and coping strategies and your children are grown is an option, but so is figuring this out while you're IN the abyss so you suffer less and come out more whole, more intact more responsive and able to respond.  Less reactive.

The reactivity is suffering, EM.  Every inch of it...... suffering and fear.

I wish better things for you if you choose to pick them up.

Right now, you know what you know.  Your limbic system does what it does.  As long as you survive, there's no need for your limbic system to do ANYTHING differently.  It cares nothing about how you survive.... just THAT you survive.  Suffering?  Joyful?  Matters not.  YOU have more options and choices available, but you have to learn new ways, practice new habits and be your kindest ally, always curious and nonjudgmental.  Willing to accept everything as it comes and do what you can, then release expectation..... that's a tall order, but it's less suffering and worth the effort, IME.

Heaing is similar to being trapped in the abyss of legals, IME.....
it comes in spits and spats....some days things click and go unexpectedly well...... you can't believe the work you put in actually paying off in the ways you were told they would, but there it is. Happening to and for you.  Pieces falling into place.  Serenity growing.  Suffering edging away.... falling away..... leaving....gone.  Fleeting when it arrives, bc there will always be a COW.... a crisis of the week, but how one responds... how one perceives it and the problem..... how much emotional distance one cultivates (nose on or off the pebble?)can change everything and grow into strength, confidence and the ability to set and hold boundaries without hesitation until it's the new default settings of one's Nervous System and that's what I hope you give your girls.  Above everything.  That.

[escapingman]

hhaw, I learnt what the court is about. I could have kept this court case going for another year and the only thing that would have happened is that my money would have disappeared. I am really pleased I settled on the terms I did, saved myself a fortune and put me in a position to apply for an emergency order WHEN STBX looses her cool. I am quietly building my case waiting for her to self sabotage for her. She is almost there, but it could still take months, or even years. But I am ready, I know the game, I will win for the sake of the kids. I just have to.

[Big Bear]

EM,

I am so sorry to hear how you had such a hard day.  It seems that DD has fleas.  Don't give up EM, stay strong, for the kids.

Take it one day at a time.  We are here for you!

Big Bear

[escapingman]

I have had a reasonable good week with DD since the incident, we have had lots of talks and we are both trying to understand each other. She confirmed to me that when I told her she had done something wrong she expected to be punished in the way her mum used to and therefor escalated it beyond proportions. I then admit I got a flashback to when STBX used to gaslight me and project anger on to me and I responded without being able to control myself. However, we have both got closer to each other since then and I don't think I will react the same next time if she does it. DD knows she needs me and she know I am the only one protecting her from her abusers. That STBX and MIL is trying to win over the SW makes very little difference in the bigger picture as DD genuinely  don't buy their crap and can see straight through them both. I am not sure how the SW is going to go against DD's wishes but at the same time adhere to GC's wishes, that looks very biased or at least extremely much like she has not understood what happened DESPITE all the evidence. DD was looking through STBX's wardrobe as she was looking for something, she found all her presents she has given STBX over the years, unopened and stuffed away. That hurt her a lot. She gave her mum a present last year with "Mum, I love you so much" engraved into it, that was left in a drawer when she left the house, she took ALL presents GC ever given her with her. STBX has requested other items from the house, including presents she has received from various people, but never what DD gave her. But still, the SW thinks that STBX has changed. DD is terrified of her. Absolutely terrified.

[SonofThunder]

Hello EM, 

You wrote:  "...and I responded without being able to control myself. However, we have both got closer to each other since then and I don't think I will react the same next time if she does it."

As a follower of your provided experiences, and in comradeship, trying to understand the dynamics that exist between your family members in your ongoing situation, would you possibly consider expanding on the quoted sentence above? 

SoT

[escapingman]

SoT, I wish I could but I really can't as I don't know what is the truth as DD was projecting onto me how I was feeling and used gaslighting. She claims I said things I am sure I didn't, but I did ask her if she was trying to provoke a reaction and if so what she was hoping to achieve, and then regrettable asked her if she would prefer to live with her mum. When she locked herself in the bathroom screaming please don't hurt me I hid in my office being in complete fight or flight and I stayed there until I was calm again.

Todays story, I am a wreck again. Me and DD were down in the shopping centre, we were walking and suddenly I spotted STBX and GC one meter away. I freaked out, luckily they didn't see us, at least not until we had passed. Half an hour later it happened again and I totally freaked again. This was about an hour ago and my heart is still pumping as if I am going to have a heart attack.

[SonofThunder]

EM, thanks for the reply and sorry to read that you are triggered so, in the physical presence of STBX.  You past commented how calm and indifferent you were on your day in court, and you were also in stbx's physical presence then as well.  Do you believe it is possible to glean from that court day, and therefore retain the same calm indifference that you experienced, no matter where you are located.

In my experiences with my covert PD's, they typically will not act-out PD traits in public settings, unless backed into a situational corner, similar to how your stbx behaved that day in front of the attorneys.  Therefore, as part of my toolbox boundaries, I am very much aware that if I end up in a private situation, that my PD's will utilize that advantage.  So, it is my job to use the toolbox to my full benefit, but also avoid private settings if at all possible. 

A grocery store is a public setting and there are likely security cameras all over the store.  So again, maybe analyze the differences between court day and a grocery store and harness the confidence from your court day, for every day. 

Now that you live separate from stbx, have you thought about installing quality security cams in certain areas of the home (both ends of hallways and also gathering rooms such as kitchens and a family/living room) so that both video and audio are being recorded when detected and backed up to the cloud for a certain period of time (7-30 days).  Then, when incidents such as this occur, you can afterwards, save clips of the troubling period in a permanent hard-drive. 

The reason I have done this is to show truth if needed.  In your case, you could have purposefully walked into the near security covered hallway, to purposefully allow the camera to timestamp your benign and truthful actions and quite possibly captured all audio, while DD was stating these things behind a closed door into a device that was equally time-stamping.

Not sure what brands of cameras you have avail in your region, but in the US, I have most of my experience with Nest, which is owned now by Google.  Very affordable, highly reliable, excellent audio and video and fantastic interface on both mobile and computer. 

SoT

[escapingman]

It was definitely the surprise of seeing her and not immediately feeling safe, although it was in public there wasn't a protection as in the court and not knowing how she would react made me wobble. At the same time the social worker and STBX is pushing for us to start speaking about the children, I have zero desire to speak to STBX. I am not sure if I can be forced to speak to someone that makes me ill. As long as I have no contact with her I can stay indifferent, but not whilst in contact. There is a reason why no contact is practised as that is the only way to truly heal. SW is also trying to force DD to see STBX even though both me and DD has told her to slow down and that I want to speak about this. I had a lengthy chat with my lawyer and I can stop contact if I want to, and I do want to as I deem it unsafe for DD after her reaction to the last contact. It must be on the verge of misconduct of the SW to push for something neither me or DD are OK with.

This was is taking it's toll on me. It really does.

[escapingman]

DD was in a real state again yesterday as the SW told her she was going to see her mum, she didn't even ask if she wanted to see her. I spoke to her and she says she feels pushed and stressed about it and that she wants contact to stop. I had a chat to my lawyer about it and she told me I am within my rights to stop the contact and encouraged me to do so until DD is in a better space. I feel like the abuse is now executed through the SW as she does NOT get it, let's see how she responds to the request to stop contact. If she still push for it I will have to escalate to her manager.

I tried to get some distance to things and tried to move on and start living, this was more difficult than I thought as I dropped the guard a bit almost dropped the ball. It's hard as I need to focus all my energy on the SW, next court case and DD. I have moved on from STBX but being almost forced back into contact with her is not helping, I can really see my mental health slipping backwards if I have to start talking to her. I don't even know what I am supposed to talk to her about, she is withholding GC from me and she is the cause of DD struggles. There is nothing to say to her. There is only one reason to open up contact, that would be to give her the opportunity to slip up. But as she has got away with everything before I am not sure some written demands will count for anything.

[Rose1]

It's unlikely anything will be gained except giving ex more information in what is important to you.
She might be running out of things to use against you. Let's face it if you could talk things through you'd still be married.
The court and SW aren't marriage guidance and not there to fix your relationship.