Mother Son Enmeshment

[timothyhayes]

Hey all,

I've been an active participant on Reddit and someone pointed me here. I will try and summarize my situation as best as possible, but there is a lot to unpack.

I'm a 30-year-old male, who is still living with his parents. My mother is sick and my father is in good health. I am with them because I wanted to help my mother as she's been sick since I was 15, and also due to the current economy. My job pays me enough to live, but between my car bill, insurance, and other expenses an apartment in my town would put me in the red. So, I'm somewhat stuck with them. I am also in a relationship that is a year old now. She's a wonderful woman and has genuinely made me happy. We are long-distance but are planning for me to move to her city hopefully next year.

My parents are both extremely Christian. My mother is more so. And when I say that, I mean it. They've been to healing rallies, she believes the devil is what's causing issues and they both speak in tongues. I was a Christian a while ago, but have since come out of it and while I haven't openly admitted it to them, they've noticed. Which has caused many arguments that I'm "falling away from the faith" or that "I will lose my ministry". Both of my parents don't attend church, nor do they have any friends. If I didn't have my job or the one close friends around my town, I'd be horribly isolated.

Here's the issue: my mother hates my girlfriend. She believes she is scum, a wh*re, trash, a b*tch, etc. Those are straight from her mouth. And this stems back to when my girlfriend came down to visit about 8 months ago. She met my parents, but they weren't thrilled she was coming. And that has to do with the fact she's not a "good, Christian girl". She was in the process of finalizing a divorce when we began talking. If I could go back, I wouldn't have told my parents about this because they think since we kissed during this that I have been an immoral person and fornicated with a jezebel. Again, their words. So when my girlfriend visited, I felt that she did a great job talking to them and engaging with them. But as soon as she left, my mother started. She said that my girlfriend would avoid her gaze, or that she'd only laugh at my dad's jokes. But I never saw this, so it's hard to say much when she swears the girl was trying to put her in her place. And then my mother started to text her daily. Again, I wish I hadn't given her my girlfriend's number. When my girlfriend wouldn't respond till a day later, she would start to flip out. Saying, "She doesn't respect me as your mother" or "She's an entitled b*tch".

Everything came to a head in the middle of this year, when my mother began to have explosive fits about me dating this girl. She screamed at me, knocked over a bookcase, broke my door handle, stomped around the house yelling at me to "f*cking leave her house and stay with that wh*re" and would send me a barrage of texts slandering my girlfriend. I haven't told my girlfriend anything that she's said, and have tried many times to ask my mother to stop this, but it has fallen on deaf ears. She is now telling me that if I choose her (marry her) they'll cut me off forever. That they "can't respect me for picking someone like that". Needless to say, I have been in emotional turmoil about this. Trying to foster a relationship with a girl I love, and the entire time having my mother act this way hurts.

I've spent many hours googling things and I believe the issue here is a mix of religious zealotry and enmeshment. I don't even want to say half of this because it makes me feel like a loser. But my mother has become so jealous of her and me spending time together that she is starting fights almost daily. If I put my phone on Do-Not-Disturb when talking to my girlfriend at night, I am met with a barrage of texts asking if I'm ignoring her to spend time with the wh*re. If I don't eat the food she makes, she goes into a tirade about how I'm always eating out just like that entitled b*tch. She wants to watch a show with me every night AND hold my hand while we do it. She wants to know whenever I've made it safe somewhere when I leave the house. I had to completely lie to them to go on a vacation with my girlfriend because they are so vehemently opposed to her that I knew it would be a month-long fight if I was upfront.

I spent the last few months working on a degree to get a better job so I can get out of here. But as sick as this sounds, I feel bad for my mom. I want her to be happy and I'm struggling to wonder if this girl isn't right for me. But I should be the one to decide that right? Not my parents. I know I love her. So why do they continue to try and convince me she's not the one for me? My assumption is that I'm in a deeply engrossed enmeshment situation.

There's far more I can go into, so if I can elaborate on anything, please let me know. Thank you all so much for reading.

[moglow]

Wow. That's all kinds of wrong, particularly the professing herself to be such a Christian and berating you for your supposed lack of belief while speaking about another in such a vile manner. She might want to tuck that back in - or take it out and take a long hard look at correcting her own behavior instead of making assumptions and judgments of others. She doesn't *have* to like who you choose to spend your time with but manners! The smothering is way over the top here.

In all honesty, I get your thought process and how you got where you are, how hard it is to pay for housing these days etc. Seriously consider looking around for a sharable situation until you can easily afford your own place. You may be able to find a roommate or someone seeking same, split expenses and build a life outside your parents' home. No, they won't likely go for the idea and yes there may be an explosion ... and? You're 30. When are you to live your own life, wait until they're gone? A roommate needn't be your best friend, it's two/three people bonding together to make it work. I wouldn't recommend moving in with the girlfriend unless/until the two of you are ready for a stronger commitment.

You're going to have to find and implement some boundaries with your parents and others, or nothing will change for you. You don't have to be ugly about it but try BIFF: brief, informative, firm, friendly. Matter of fact and polite. You really don't have to explain, ask permission or justify any decision you make - living in their home certain things are given and *everyone* needs to respect the others. Model the behavior and treatment you want from them, and keep on modeling it.

And the girlfriend? I wouldn't say another word about her, whether to or around the parents. That's your private life and your personal business, mother's voiced her displeasure and she can have it. You're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Starboard Song]

I spent the last few months working on a degree to get a better job so I can get out of here. But as sick as this sounds, I feel bad for my mom. I want her to be happy and I'm struggling to wonder if this girl isn't right for me. But I should be the one to decide that right? Not my parents. I know I love her. So why do they continue to try and convince me she's not the one for me? My assumption is that I'm in a deeply engrossed enmeshment situation.

The issue here won't be resolved by defining it as enmeshment or something else.

Welcome to Out of the FOG.

It does not sound at all sick to feel bad for your mom. It doesn't sound sick to want her to be happy. It sounds kind and loving, and that is healthy and good. But they doesn't make you responsible for her actually being happy. Head over to the My Stuff / Your Stuff page to learn more. You are responsible for your choices and behavior, and how you feel about it: that's your stuff. Mom's histrionics are her stuff, and not something you can manage or fix for her.

You know best whether this girl is right for you. In any case, doubts inspired by your parents must be accepted on your parents terms. They have not generally pronounced her "not the right girl for you." They've said she is promiscuous: you can judge that question. They call her pejoratives like scum: you can judge that. Are these specific judgements they make true or false? Is she hateful, selfish, promiscuous and trashy? You know that with confidence.

Run to our Boundaries page to learn about kind, enforceable boundaries. It is hard while you are in the house, but you should not be exposed to not-stop ranting. I'd encourage you to block someone from texting who cannot do so with kindness. And I'd encourage you to end conversations that are not pleasant, or which are on topics you've decided you don't want to discuss.

Take your time. There is a lot to unpack and learn. But independence will help clear your head. Good luck!

[NarcKiddo]

You're not a loser. Even if you are completely enmeshed with your mother (and I'm not saying you are) that does not make you a loser.

The others have said pretty much everything that first came to my mind when reading your post and I agree with them. I suspect your mother is trying to put you off this girl partly because she lives a long way away and if you move to be with her you will also be a long way away from your mother. Your descriptions of her desire for closeness with you tend to suggest this would not be pleasing to her.

It sounds like you have a plan to get away in the foreseeable future so maybe it is mainly a question of coping until you can. But as you don't want your mother to be unhappy maybe you need to start setting more boundaries now so she gets used to the fact that you will play nice if she will play nice, and you will not tolerate bad behaviour.

How is your father in all of this?

[Cat of the Canals]

You're not a loser. Even if you are completely enmeshed with your mother (and I'm not saying you are) that does not make you a loser.

Please understand that enmeshment with a parent usually starts early. Like in infancy. You've been conditioned since birth to think this is "normal." And believe me when I tell you that it has taken a great many of us much longer than 30 years of life to figure out that our messed up relationships with our parents are anything but normal.

There are a lot of books on this subject I think you'd find helpful, but the one I'd personally recommend starting with is Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson.

[Sneezy]

Oh my goodness, reading this is making me tear up a little.  You are not much older than my son.  And he also still lives at home, partly due to the economy and partly due to not knowing exactly what he wants to do with his life.  Is he launching as quickly as I'd hoped?  No, he's not.  But he is a kind, smart, wonderful young man and I would love any woman who loved him.  Period.  Full stop.  Your mom's reaction to your girlfriend is as wrong as can be.

Take care of yourself, work on your boundaries, and do what you can reasonably do to maybe move out and gain some distance, both emotional and physical, from your parents.  And don't be too hard on yourself over any of this.  I was raised in a pretty strict church (not quite like yours) and some of that early conditioning sticks in your head longer than you'd expect it to.

Welcome to the forum and keep posting!

[timothyhayes]

Hey everyone,

Thank you all so much for the helpful links and kind responses. The support on this forum is wonderful and I'm incredibly thankful to be here.

I'd like to post a follow-up from yesterday. I was out working last night and was barraged with about 100 text messages about how my parents will disown me if I marry this girl. My mother said she refuses to allow someone to abuse her. And again that goes back to my girlfriend not being able to make proper eye contact or that she wouldn't respond to her text messages quickly. She also kept telling me she thinks the girl is trying to put a wedge between us to break us apart. My mother then called me when I was off, before I headed home, and spent two hours screaming at me and telling me to choose them or my girlfriend or they'll kick me out. I refused to acknowledge it.

When the conversation was over I ended up telling my girlfriend what was going on. I didn't want to, but I have been carrying this burden for about 6 months now, and I was tired of allowing it to affect our relationship while she was kept in the dark. Needless to say, she was very hurt. I asked her if she was playing any games with my mom or anything, and she assured me she wasn't. She told me her anxiety can flare up badly, which would make sense since we'd only been dating 3 months when she came down to visit me AND my parents. But my mother refuses to believe that.

My parents and I decided last year that we would pool our money and buy some property in the same state my girlfriend was living in (found out she lived there after I'd made those plans) and now they're saying they refuse to move there if I marry her. They can't live on the same property with someone who would gaslight them. 

I am incredibly hurt by the comments my mother has made about me and my girlfriend. I am considering having a heart-to-heart with my mother and explaining that I love her and care about her. I don't want her to think I dismiss her as my mom, but the way she's acting towards my girlfriend while refusing to even speak to her is making me so upset. I'm at a loss.

[NarcKiddo]

So the move to her city you mention in your first post is actually the property share you were planning with your parents prior to realising where your girlfriend lives? If that is correct then I assume your mother thinks she can prevent you from moving to be near/with your girlfriend if your parents go back on the agreed plan? Have you made any legally binding agreements with your parents yet, or actually pooled any of your money with theirs? If not, I'd advise that you do not proceed with anything that ties you to them. At least not while this mess is going on.

I don't know what your parents will or won't do. I can tell you that I think it unlikely a mother who wants to watch TV every night with her son, and hold his hand, would follow through with a threat to disown him. I could be very wrong, of course. I can tell you that I married a man in the face of being disowned. We ran away together with no money and no prospects and survived. The marriage did not survive - he turned out to be an alcoholic psychopath - but the mistake was mine to make and I made it. My father maintained no contact while I was with this man. My mother, who is the hysterical narc and threatens to disinherit if we don't do what she says, caved in a month or so after the marriage and resumed contact. I now realise it was because she had lost her supply from me, but the point is that she was quick to back down despite all her huffing and threats. I rather wish she hadn't backed down, with hindsight, but that's a whole other story.

Reassuring your mother that you love and care for her is fine, but what boundary will you put in? You can't make her accept your girlfriend. Indeed, you can't make her do anything. All you can do is manage your own behaviour and provide consequences if she does not abide by your requests. So, realistically, what consequences can you provide? I think you need to consider what you can and can't do/tolerate, both practically and emotionally and then work towards a situation you can tolerate even if it's not ideal. You can always work to improve things but Rome wasn't built in a day.

I wish you well. This is a horrid situation. But your mother is behaving like a spouse who has been cheated on, not a mother who should be encouraging her son to be his own man.

[Srcyu]

It's a long distance relationship so most of it must take place online/phone. That's fairly normal for a lot of relationships now but really, asking her if she was playing any games with your mother, suggests that you don't yet know her all that well.

Your mother is able to place doubts in your mind about her, that doesn't sound too good for your girlfriend.
You don't mention your father at all. What are his views about all of this? Does he have any say at all in your household? Your mother possibly expects the same compliance from you as she does from her husband.

She is extremely worried, threatened and maybe, unstable.
She is throwing every trick in the book at you in an attempt to keep her life the same. Because your girlfriend is quite some distance away you can't meet up in person and support one another properly.

If your hand holding mother doesn't already know how much you love her, then she never will.
Your main concern is working out how to make your relationship with your girlfriend a success. She should come first in your life as the adult that you now are.

[timothyhayes]

So the move to her city you mention in your first post is actually the property share you were planning with your parents prior to realising where your girlfriend lives?

100% correct. They started to get weird about this girl before they'd even met her. So it felt like, from the beginning, they were looking to not like her. Although my mother is vehemently opposed that idea.

Have you made any legally binding agreements with your parents yet, or actually pooled any of your money with theirs? If not, I'd advise that you do not proceed with anything that ties you to them. At least not while this mess is going on.

No binding contracts, thankfully. They are just now threatening to leave without me, so 

Reassuring your mother that you love and care for her is fine, but what boundary will you put in?

That is the million-dollar question. I am trying to figure that out. I tried telling her last night, during the hysterical episode, that I wasn't going to put up with this behavior much longer. All that managed to do was make the episode worse. What I haven't done yet is threaten to leave. I am considering talking with her today and saying, "I love and care for you but if you continue to act this way and threaten me, then I will leave willingly." I can't begin to tell you the chest-tightening anxiety I get whenever I hear my phone ring from a text message now.

It's just crazy to me how all of this is happening. She did have a breakdown when I was in my early twenties and said I was planning to move out with my best friend. I decided not to, due to her being sick and how she reacted. It's one of the few decisions I genuinely regret.

I wish you well. This is a horrid situation. But your mother is behaving like a spouse who has been cheated on, not a mother who should be encouraging her son to be his own man.

Exactly my thoughts. I've eluded to her acting like a crazy ex-girlfriend and she flipped.

[timothyhayes]

You don't mention your father at all. What are his views about all of this? Does he have any say at all in your household? Your mother possibly expects the same compliance from you as she does from her husband.

His views are exactly hers. I watched him try to be on my side for a whole two days before he would just agree with her or else she'd start screaming at him and make him sleep on the couch. I feel like the wound is worse from my father because he's completely rolled over. Their marriage has always been terrible. I can remember my father sleeping in another room alone, more than them together. I will also point out that my mother has always talked badly about my father to me, and would constantly ask me to calm her down after their fights. From the time I was like 6. That reflection leads me to believe I'm in a nasty enmeshment scenario.

If your hand holding mother doesn't already know how much you love her, then she never will.
Your main concern is working out how to make your relationship with your girlfriend a success. She should come first in your life as the adult that you now are.

That's a great point. I don't know how to approach her then. It's almost noon now and we have yet to speak.
I completely agree with what my main concern should be and it is. I have made it clear to my parents and my girlfriend that I am continuing to bond and grow with her.
My mother did say last night, "We don't want to allow you to hole up in your room and bond with this girl who has treated us so horribly." as she was threatening to kick me out. So I believe you are right that's she's threatened.

[Cat of the Canals]

That is the million-dollar question. I am trying to figure that out. I tried telling her last night, during the hysterical episode, that I wasn't going to put up with this behavior much longer. All that managed to do was make the episode worse.

This is not surprising or unexpected.
Here's something I urge you to practice in the future: make the boundaries/consequences something you can and will do Right Now.
E.G. "I won't tolerate being screamed at. If you don't lower your voice, I'm going to hang up/leave the room/etc."
The screaming continues? You hang up/leave the room (or the house, if necessary).
You can't stop her from screaming at you, but you CAN end the conversation.

Now take that same boundary statement and fill in the blank for every other abusive behavior.
I won't tolerate being cursed at.
I won't listen to you demean my girlfriend.
I won't tolerate being threatened (whether it's being kicked out, refusing to honor buying property together, etc.).

The difference between trying to control someone else's behavior and controlling our own instead is the core to effective boundaries.

P.S. I would be secretly glad that they are now refusing to buy property with you. Please don't sign yourself up for another 30 years of this. It's a hard pill to swallow, but there is very little chance your parents are going to change. Doubly so if you're living anywhere near them with your girlfriend. It will be hell for you and her.

[timothyhayes]

Here's something I urge you to practice in the future: make the boundaries/consequences something you can and will do Right Now.
E.G. "I won't tolerate being screamed at. If you don't lower your voice, I'm going to hang up/leave the room/etc."
The screaming continues? You hang up/leave the room (or the house, if necessary).
You can't stop her from screaming at you, but you CAN end the conversation.

This is fantastic advice--thank you! I desperately need to work on this. I find it so difficult to do this in the heat of an episode she's having. But from trying to argue back it has always ended in more yelling and then me being blamed for how she's feeling.

[moglow]

Note to self : don't argue back. Don't try to reason with her or "calm her down" when she's wound up - standing up to an irate person is kinda like trying to baptize a cat. She's going to do and say what she does, andyou neither have to respond nor take it all in. All those texts when you're away for a few hours? Aw HELL no! You don't have to respond to all that either.

I'd back off and deflect any mention of the girlfriend. There's nothing you need to defend or explain, and it doesn't sound like she's the problem here. My guess is, your mother would be this way with anyone. That's HER stuff and you can't change it.

The relentless attacks and pounding away would make me want OUT and away from the source. It amazes me that your parents cant see how damaging this is. I'm sure dad doesn't want to cross her either, but this sounds miserable for everyone.

Can you find quite time with them where you can calmly present it that way - how painful these rampages and confrontation are, how it just pushes you away rather than bring all of you together as a family. Maybe present as you want better for everyone regardless of whether you're dating or not. Remove the girlfriend from the equation, basically, for the sake of argument. This is just not sustainable.

[Starboard Song]

Can you find quite time with them where you can calmly present it that way - how painful these rampages and confrontation are, how it just pushes you away rather than bring all of you together as a family.

Maybe present as you want better for everyone regardless of whether you're dating or not. Remove the girlfriend from the equation, basically, for the sake of argument. This is just not sustainable.

Spot on!

This is not about the girlfriend. "Mom. Dad. From time to time I am bound to disappoint you, or do things in not the way you'd prefer. Or maybe you'll just feel moved to advise me. I respect you both, and actually want your advice sometimes. But these rampages, these attacks, the vulgar language, the raised voices -- none of that is acceptable, and it is not a way in which I will ever accept your advice."

But you weren't listening!

"Sometimes we will actually disagree. I don't mind when you choose paths that I wouldn't choose. And I hope you can respect me, too, when I choose a path you don't prefer. The problem isn't that I wasn't listening. It was that I disagree this time. I can still love you and I hope you can love me. But as I say, the point is this: I will not be yelled at, cursed at, or abused. I need you to respect me in this way. I hope you can do that for me."

I've given this speech! It was an utter failure! But I stand by it as exactly the right thing to do, and I think I've learned so much more about what we were dealing with that I could do it with better luck today. Ain't gonna try, but I think I could.

Good strength to you!

[Leonor]

Hi Timothy, and welcome.

It's time for some clarity, because this suffering must be excruciating for you.

This is not about your girlfriend.

This is not about your mother.

This is about you.

You are not in a.place to reassure your mother or commit to your girlfriend. It would be a disservice to her, and to her child, to entertain a serious relationship while in this toxic meds with your mother.

But recovery is possible. You are on a healing path.

Check out Dr. Ken Adams, who is a wise, kind, and clear expert on enmeshed men, their mothers, and the women on their lives. He writes in a compassionate way for all while firmly advocating for men's independence and happiness.

He has a website, videos on YouTube, and books. I think his work will give you insight on the source of your predicament as well as relief from your pain.

[lkdrymom]

I agree. This is not about the girlfriend.  This is about you eventually having a life away from under your mother's thumb.  She is acting out because she is afraid you will leave and she will have no one to care for her.  So far her rantings have worked.  Stop asking her to change.  Feel free to TELL her to change but don't expect it to happen.  The only one who needs to change is you.  What are you going to do about this?  Tolerating her outbursts has not worked.  In all honesty you need an exit plan.  What is keeping you in your current town?  Your schooling?  Can you do it remote in your girlfriend's town? I didn't quite understand the comment about the property.  Have you given any money towards it?  If not, don't. Use that money to move out now.  Complaining and hoping your mother will change is not going to solve this.  If you want things to change you will have to make it happen yourself.

[moglow]

One other concern - I'm not sure I understand your mother's insistence on texting your lady. Whatever for? Was mother perhaps being intrusive and your lady don't feel comfortable answering, or simply chose to not discuss with a virtual stranger via text? Then to demean her behind her back? Mother forgets (or ignores) - she doesn't have to get to know your friends without you, or that your lady doesn't necessarily require mother's approval.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or suggest that you be but really. Your relationship with her is separate from that with your parent, same as with any other person. Nothing wrong and obv you'd like them all to get along but at this point it shouldn't be an issue or a least not THE issue.

I'm suggesting you find lines -boundaries- between you. Fuzzy and flexible the lines may be, but remember that you're all adults and deserve respect. Not just them as the parents, and even then respect doesn't mean ultimatum and gauntlets being thrown down for you to obey or else. It behooves everyone to encourage and exercise respect, regardless of who they may be.

[Pepin]

As the wife of a mother enmeshed man.....I am proud of you for taking the steps you have.  As others have already said, it is honorable for you to love and care for your mother and to want to help her where you can.  But, you are also your own adult and deserve to live your life on your terms. 

I highly recommend that you check out Dr. Kenneth Adams.

https://www.overcomingenmeshment.com/dr-kenneth-m-adams/

I have watched all of his podcasts on YouTube in order to understand the dynamic between my husband and his late mother (she passed this year).  The last number of years of our marriage and family were excruciating because of the enmeshment.  I didn't know what it was and it was extremely hidden when we first met and started dating.  The enmeshment exploded after we had kids and even more so after CN MIL became a widow.  Those are years of my life that I will never recover.  Now that CN MIL has passed, I find myself having to make up for lost time with DH the way normal couples did during their marriage.  I also harbor a lot of resentment and I'm dealing with health issues as a result of being a part of this trauma. 

Another incredible blog I follow on FB (can also google him) is Patrick Weaver Ministries.  There is quite a bit of relevance in his teachings with regards to the parent/adult child relationship that he incorporates based on his own abusive upbringing.  I'm not religious but his interpretations of the Bible are excellent and in depth.  Wishing you the best.

[timothyhayes]

Thank you to everyone who has left comments and advice. I completely agree that this has nothing to do with my girlfriend and all to do with me. I've advised my girlfriend not to reach out to my mother or try to win her over because I am not going to force her to throw herself at someone looking to be slighted.

An update for anyone wondering:

Things have simmered down. I've put some boundaries in place, for when she tries to have a blow-up. It isn't perfect, but reading through the forums here has helped a ton. Thank you all for being so kind. I'll be popping in and out, so I hope to have some good news soon