Home improvements - top of the line / all at once?

[haribo_milchbaren]

Anyone else experience this? I was reading that needing to have "the best" of everything is a narcissistic trait and wondering if this fits in too. STBX and I purchased a house that's in good condition and didn't need any major renos. But every time the subject of improving the house comes up in any fashion (even when it comes to painting) STBX goes into these elaborate ideas of how everything should be done all at the same time (for efficiency/saving money supposedly), and should be top of the line, because why waste money on middle of the line when we might want to upgrade later, and how if some work needs to be done by a tradesperson, we should get everything done in the entire house at the exact same time by the tradesperson, otherwise we are throwing money down the drain. STBX has even spoke of the idea of tearing down the house and building two on our land since we have a larger plot of land than the neighbours, and we could make so much money that way. It is exhausting, and I have told STBX that it's crazy overwhelming more than once. Nothing has gotten done in our house because I feel like unless I do it completely on my own without STBX's involvement it would involve these elaborate and crazy expensive plans. STBX frames it that I stonewall them on plans and it's completely my fault that nothing is done. I have felt extremely guilty that nothing has gotten done, and it's due to my own anxiety and undiagnosed ADHD (and general failure as a human). I'm sure that that has played some role, but at this point I wonder what normal couples do when it comes to making improvements (such as purchasing furniture and painting). I never witnessed any of my parents' discussions on improvements that they made, but I doubt it would have helped as I have a uPD parent and most general discussions I did witness were of non-PD parent backing down and complying with uPD parent's wishes unless they happened to agree (boy, that sounds very familiar )

The more and more I read these common behaviours the more angry I feel that I didn't see anything wrong all these years and just explained away everything. To be fair, it took me until the last couple of years to even see that my uPD parent's behaviour was extremely inappropriate and until this year that it was abusive. I just wish I had realized this sooner and could have gotten years of my life back. C'est la vie, I guess.

[NarcKiddo]

I have a tendency to like top of the line stuff, and as the offspring of at least one narc I could well have narc tendencies. If I look at items where I don't know the price I will almost always gravitate towards the one that costs the most.

That said, there is some merit in the financial arguments put forward to you by STBX and I guess the answer rests on what his motivation is. I like to have the best I can afford for my convenience rather than to show off to others that I have it.

The guy who always does work in our house will give us options and we always pick the one that means the work in question is likely to have a longer lifespan. That is usually the most expensive option but works out cheaper in the long run. If buying, say, a car my husband and I would tend towards a decent quality brand but would rather get a top of the range model of a cheaper brand that has all the extras we want rather than go for the bottom of the range of a more obviously swanky brand.

Please do not refer to your "general failure as a human". That is very unkind to yourself and is not helpful to you. If a friend wrote your post would you tell them they are a general failure as a human? We all have faults and characteristics we would rather change. Those of us who have suffered the attentions of PDs in our life have had a lot to cope with and it is no wonder if we have found dysfunctional ways to get us through. I agree it is annoying to have "wasted" years in the FOG but I sometimes think that we don't see things until we are ready to see them. I am angry that it took me nearly half a century to even start seeing the truth but I am strong enough to handle therapy now. I'm not sure I would have been strong enough in my 20s. So maybe my dysfunctional coping mechanisms have served me well, despite being unhelpful now.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I think the most important factor in making these sort of decisions is REALITY. I think it's only human nature when looking at multiple options to gravitate toward the best quality one, and thus the most expensive much of the time. I don't think that makes you snobbish. So yeah, sure, if given the choice between a Honda and a Mercedes I'd pick the Mercedes. But these choices don't exist in a vacuum. So what can we afford in our budget? What's the gas mileage like? What kind of maintenance is required? Will we keep up with it? Are there enough seats? These are all going to weigh differently with different people because people live differently and have different needs and wants. All fine, all common sense. But if reality dictates the Honda minivan makes the most sense, but you are dead-set on a two-seater Lamborghini, well then you have a problem.

Same with the house. You could tear down and build two houses on your property. But what would that cost? Are you willing to go into debt to that degree? Where would you live in the meantime? From what you wrote I'm not seeing that your spouse is dealing with these inconvenient questions, just calling you the wet blanket on all his grand plans. That's not okay.

Also, you refer to him as your soon-to-be ex. So... it appears that the question of what to do to improve the house is a moot point? A little flag is coming up in my brain that pushing the two of you into major debt together may be a way of entangling you and discouraging you from leaving the marriage.

[haribo_milchbaren]

I have a tendency to like top of the line stuff, and as the offspring of at least one narc I could well have narc tendencies. If I look at items where I don't know the price I will almost always gravitate towards the one that costs the most.

That said, there is some merit in the financial arguments put forward to you by STBX and I guess the answer rests on what his motivation is. I like to have the best I can afford for my convenience rather than to show off to others that I have it.

The guy who always does work in our house will give us options and we always pick the one that means the work in question is likely to have a longer lifespan. That is usually the most expensive option but works out cheaper in the long run. If buying, say, a car my husband and I would tend towards a decent quality brand but would rather get a top of the range model of a cheaper brand that has all the extras we want rather than go for the bottom of the range of a more obviously swanky brand.

Please do not refer to your "general failure as a human". That is very unkind to yourself and is not helpful to you. If a friend wrote your post would you tell them they are a general failure as a human? We all have faults and characteristics we would rather change. Those of us who have suffered the attentions of PDs in our life have had a lot to cope with and it is no wonder if we have found dysfunctional ways to get us through. I agree it is annoying to have "wasted" years in the FOG but I sometimes think that we don't see things until we are ready to see them. I am angry that it took me nearly half a century to even start seeing the truth but I am strong enough to handle therapy now. I'm not sure I would have been strong enough in my 20s. So maybe my dysfunctional coping mechanisms have served me well, despite being unhelpful now.

Fair points on all fronts. I also gravitate towards higher end options when I don't see the price as well. I think also this is why I always thought our disagreements on this were always on me - I can easily see the argument for not cheaping out. The dysfunction lies in the arguments we have where they say that we MUST get the top of the line, the very top, and nothing less. And I feel lesser than for even trying to suggest that it's ok to get an option that is not 100% optimal. It's hard to quantify. Yes, these options would likely be best in an ideal scenario, but we are not extremely wealthy, just a little above middle class, and IT IS OKAY TO NOT HAVE THE ABSOLUTE TOP OF THE LINE ALL THE TIME. You even mentioned that you'd rather get all the options on a cheaper brand of car than the base model of an expensive one, and I'd agree with you there. As another example, I ended up buying my own wedding ring, and STBX criticized it because the diamond has a flaw in it and they would have gone to THEIR jeweller and gotten one that they'd be sure had no flaws. Except they didn't buy me that ring, and I was extremely proud to have found a great deal on one that I loved, and who tf cares anyway? And another - STBX insists that our landscaping be done top of the line, with geotextile to prevent weeds, and I finally capitulated and bought some geotextile even though a friend who worked as a landscaper showed me a much easier and cheaper way to mulch with leaves to keep down weeds (less optimal, but an excellent interim solution that according to STBX is not a good solution). Once that happened they went all out on how I have to be on constant vigilance and MUST NOT allow any weeds to grow and pick them out as soon as I see them because it will ruin the textile, etc etc. On the one hand, they are correct, but on the other hand, we have an enormous yard, and it is completely unrealistic to install this everywhere and monitor it at all times for weeds just because it's optimal and that's what their stay at home mom did. I see the point, and yet somehow anything less than perfection is failure. Not to mention, STBX insisted that we landscape the front yard first as that is what the neighbours will see and we have to have good relations with the neighbours. I think STBX's motivations are both for convenience but also for showing off to others, which makes it difficult to argue against. STBX grew up in a wealthy narc family where they did buy top of the line everything and I'm certain that plays a role too. I just know that the way I feel when we disagree on this is like I am completely in the wrong. :/ And for years I have been assuming it's because I AM in the wrong.

I know that I should speak to myself in a kinder fashion. It's something I've been working on in therapy. I have a hard time discerning if I am at fault or not (although my therapist says that relationships are a dynamic and it's unhelpful to think of it in the lens of fault anyway), but I default towards blaming myself, always. I am trying to work on figuring out what my part in relationship dynamics are and I feel like I have no compass right now.

[haribo_milchbaren]

I think the most important factor in making these sort of decisions is REALITY. I think it’s only human nature when looking at multiple options to gravitate toward the best quality one, and thus the most expensive much of the time. I don’t think that makes you snobbish. So yeah, sure, if given the choice between a Honda and a Mercedes I’d pick the Mercedes. But these choices don’t exist in a vacuum. So what can we afford in our budget? What’s the gas mileage like? What kind of maintenance is required? Will we keep up with it? Are there enough seats? These are all going to weigh differently with different people because people live differently and have different needs and wants. All fine, all common sense. But if reality dictates the Honda minivan makes the most sense, but you are dead-set on a two-seater Lamborghini, well then you have a problem.

Same with the house. You could tear down and build two houses on your property. But what would that cost? Are you willing to go into debt to that degree? Where would you live in the meantime? From what you wrote I’m not seeing that your spouse is dealing with these inconvenient questions, just calling you the wet blanket on all his grand plans. That’s not okay.

Also, you refer to him as your soon-to-be ex. So… it appears that the question of what to do to improve the house is a moot point? A little flag is coming up in my brain that pushing the two of you into major debt together may be a way of entangling you and discouraging you from leaving the marriage.

True, it's (hopefully) a moot point. I have asked for a divorce (although they have insisted that we go all out on the home staging - while I have no income - for the sale that they refuse to even agree to until we come to a spousal support agreement, and apparently spoke to someone who said our land is extremely valuable :eyeroll:). I am SO GLAD that I didn't agree to any of these grand plans before and I just hope that now I can also not agree to any other grand plans that would delay the sale because I just want out at this point. I actually posted this because it has been such a major issue in our marriage and I want to gain some more clarity on it.

[square]

I think there is a correlation between NPD (and also child of NPD) and a type of perfectionism. A feeling that one must be better than, best, absolutely perfect. Children of NPDs may feel that criticisms they received can be resolved by being or having the absolute best of everything - but it's an empty chase and satisfaction is brief.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting top of the line. But if its pursuit is obssessive rather than practical, it may say something. It's one thing to choose the countertops that will last the longest, another to do so and yet replace them every year.

But even so, there is room for reasonable people to disagree over home improvements and other large decisions too. Where it gets really problematic is if someone is willing to burn it all down to get their way - namecalling, gaslighting, scapegoating, screaming, etc.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yes, people are more important than things, square!

Hmm what you say about his insisting on the absolute best home staging while refusing to even agree to the sale yet has me thinking even more that he is likely trying to stall you here. Beware of moving goalposts.

[Catothecat]

I agree with this   

Sounds like your STBX is coming up with unrealistic or illogical demands then asking you to make a decision based on those demands.  But you can't make a decision based on such input.  It seems to be playing out where this or that could use some improvement, but it morphs into a huge deal where literally everything needs an improvement even to the point where the house maybe should be torn down and replaced!  The end result is what you have--paralysis in decision making.  Which could be exactly what your STBX wants.  That way, you are always to blame, and they are always in a position to blame you.

That you've not agreed to anything so far will work in your favor, because otherwise you'd indeed be heading down the slippery slope (one issue will always lead to another).  Have you gotten a realtor's input?  And don't go along with the first one you have come through the door, always get a second opinion because a lot of realtors are just concerned about their commission and could care less how much money you spend on fixing up your house toward that end (which can benefit them way more than it can you). 

[haribo_milchbaren]

I agree with this   

Sounds like your STBX is coming up with unrealistic or illogical demands then asking you to make a decision based on those demands.  But you can't make a decision based on such input.  It seems to be playing out where this or that could use some improvement, but it morphs into a huge deal where literally everything needs an improvement even to the point where the house maybe should be torn down and replaced!  The end result is what you have--paralysis in decision making.  Which could be exactly what your STBX wants.  That way, you are always to blame, and they are always in a position to blame you.

That you've not agreed to anything so far will work in your favor, because otherwise you'd indeed be heading down the slippery slope (one issue will always lead to another).  Have you gotten a realtor's input?  And don't go along with the first one you have come through the door, always get a second opinion because a lot of realtors are just concerned about their commission and could care less how much money you spend on fixing up your house toward that end (which can benefit them way more than it can you).

I've contacted one realtor so far and am planning to contact a second one. I have unfortunately experienced that with the sale of my condo and purchase of this house. My realtor was extremely motivated and interested in selling the condo but left us to visit the house by ourselves most times because she was busy with other things, and was barely involved.

I am feeling so confused right now. I've gone back to regretting writing all of this here and feeling guilty and thinking it's all my fault, despite what everyone is saying. I guess this is the FOG 

[square]

It could be FOG or it could be exhaustion. If you feel like the threat has ceased for the time being you probably want to lick your wounds, heal, and rest. Moving out, divorcing, or even just thinking about the pain you've endured is exhausting. It's hard enough to do those things when we have no other choice, but if you have the option of just letting the latest blowup or struggle just go by the wayside, that is very very tempting. You get amnesia of sorts to deal with it.

[notrightinthehead]

Haribo Milchbären in my experience this urge to have the best of everything prevents any attempts to make realistic changes now.
My NPDh and I shopped two! years for a couch finally settling on one which he sent back twice because of some flaw. I have also found that the most expensive is not necessarily the best. I watched an experiment once where participants were asked to judge three samples of wine. The first group just was given the glasses with numbers and asked to rate the samples. One sample, lets say number 2, received most votes. The second group was given the samples and the price the wine sold for. One sample was supposed to be significantly more expensive than the others. This received significantly more votes than the other samples. Thing was, all three glasses contained the same wine for both groups of participants.
When we pay more, we expect what we receive in return to be more too. And we distort our perception to experience that result. Or we set ourselves up for disappointment and send the item back. And back. And complain.

[haribo_milchbaren]

It could be FOG or it could be exhaustion. If you feel like the threat has ceased for the time being you probably want to lick your wounds, heal, and rest. Moving out, divorcing, or even just thinking about the pain you've endured is exhausting. It's hard enough to do those things when we have no other choice, but if you have the option of just letting the latest blowup or struggle just go by the wayside, that is very very tempting. You get amnesia of sorts to deal with it.

Maybe this is it. Maybe I just am exhausted and want to move on and not have to deal with any more of this. I have been on stress leave since the spring from work and I finally feel like I'm having some amount of respite. Now that I have finally told trusted friends and a family member about what has really been going on, I have been feeling a lot more supported. But on the flipside of this, now that I've finally told people about what's going on, I just feel ashamed about it too. I just want to be able to go back to my job, to find a new place for myself and live a peaceful life.

[haribo_milchbaren]

Haribo Milchbären in my experience this urge to have the best of everything prevents any attempts to make realistic changes now.
My NPDh and I shopped two! years for a couch finally settling on one which he sent back twice because of some flaw. I have also found that the most expensive is not necessarily the best. I watched an experiment once where participants were asked to judge three samples of wine. The first group just was given the glasses with numbers and asked to rate the samples. One sample, lets say number 2, received most votes. The second group was given the samples and the price the wine sold for. One sample was supposed to be significantly more expensive than the others. This received significantly more votes than the other samples. Thing was, all three glasses contained the same wine for both groups of participants.
When we pay more, we expect what we receive in return to be more too. And we distort our perception to experience that result. Or we set ourselves up for disappointment and send the item back. And back. And complain.

Too true. I've definitely experienced the anger and complaints when it is not up to STBX's standards. Although I have also experienced disappointment in expensive items and asked for a refund.

This is only tangentially related, but also funny you bring up wine since STBX insists on buying pricier wine when giving it as a gift or thank you because "there is no good wine below $x". Perhaps that used to be true about 20 years ago where we live, but really not anymore. I think that some of it definitely has to do with STBX growing up in a wealthy family. They can just be snobbish sometimes. Still, the importance of giving an "appropriately" priced wine as a thank you, always, feeds into my own stress and anxiety surrounding gift giving. A friend with abusive narc parents was telling me that when you grow up in a PD household, everything is transactional. Birthdays and Christmas bring up a large amount of anxiety for me about getting just the perfect gift that is appropriately priced, but approximately the same price as gifts I get others. Because my uPD parent placed extreme importance on their own birthday (but also other holidays) and would complain if the gift wasn't there on time in the mail, if there was no card, and if it wasn't something they liked. And still brought up to me as an adult the time my nonPD parent forgot their birthday, but my sibling and I were somehow also at fault, even though we were young children at the time. I still remember the adult tantrum uPD parent threw that day. How can I forget. Contrast this with the one time I forgot to call non-PD parent as an adult on their birthday and they were sad when I called them the next day to apologize. But it was never held over my head and never brought up again. I am 100% certain this has to do with their childhoods, but you know what? It's just not ok and fair to take it out on your children. /rant