I think she just flipped the script

[Sojourner17]

I talked with my unpdm tonight.  I went back and forth all day as to following through with the call.  My DH encouraged me to do it. Find out what she wanted to say, don't get excited, don't talk too much, end the convo when it gets out of hand. 

I think I started out okay.  I mostly listened as she told me a bit more detail about my sis and what happened.  In a way that was good as I have a better understanding about who helped my sis. 

Then she went into religion and unfortunately I didn't cut it off in time.  She point blank bluntly asked me a question that I could not answer and I told her so but I wasn't able to hold the line /missed the opportunity to hold the line.  It turned into my being obligated to tell people if I thought they were going down the wrong path, how I said I would send her what I had studied but didn't (this is something I said over 6 years ago). I couldn't even remember exactly what she was even talking about so I asked her what was it that she was talking about. 
Long story short she flipped things onto me, saying she didn't know how to talk with me, how she was hurting and I was refusing to talk with her about it/tell her what I know.  She ended up in tears and really worked up. I told her that it seemed like she was very upset and that we could talk about it when she was feeling better and told her that it was late and Had to go saying have a good night.  She said yeah right and hung up the phone. 

I'm feeling fairly calm at the moment but I can see a few places in the interaction where I let my guard down/didn't know what to say and bumbled it up.  I should have cut it off right when she said she had a blunt question for me.  I definitely shouldn't have said we could talk about that topic when she was feeling better. I wasn't very good at grey rock/keeping a neutral tone but I'm glad that I at least attempted to draw the line. 
I get so tripped up when it comes to the faith/religion aspect of things.  It's like my programming/way of being taught it meant to be a Christian gets me into trouble.  I'm finding it difficult to navigate that in a healthier more true to me and who I am/what I stand for kind of way. 

I think this topic may overlap with the religion and spirituality part of the forum.  I hope you don't mind.

Im trying to hold on to myself in this.  I know why I've made the choice to live out my convictions as to what I believe.  I told her that what she believes is between her and God, I can't answer that, it's for her to figure out.  What I was thinking was, I gave you the info more than once. I can't feed it to you, that's not my role, not my place. What I found myself saying was that I had a book I could send her if she wanted it.  . Then she said it is too much money to send it by mail but she would send it back when she was done with it.

So, I'm in the dog house again (which I kind of expected based on the texts earlier).
I need to figure out how to nip these conversations quicker.  I don't want to make excuses, I NEED to do this for my own sanity.  This convo ended up being 45 minutes long... I had been aiming for 10. 

[NarcKiddo]

I'm sorry you found the convo difficult.

On the assumption you are a lay person with no formal qualifications in theology, if religion crops up could you simply say "I am not qualified in any way to explain these issues to you. I am happy to send you literature I have found helpful. Beyond that you will need to consult your pastor."? If you have some qualifications then you could maybe say "I know I have qualifications but our relationship is too close for it to be appropriate for me to try to teach you what I believe or influence your beliefs. You will need to consult your pastor."

If she is asking you what you believe, could you simply tell her that just as what she believes is between her and God, so is what you believe? Unless you are involved in a particularly evangelical form of Christianity such that you yourself preach, there is no reason I can see for you to not to refuse to discuss things with her. Maybe you could tell her you are still trying to figure certain things out for yourself so it would be wrong to pass on limited knowledge that you may revise as you study deeper.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Sojourner,

This is a tough situation to be in. My heart does go out to you.

A suggestion: can you write out the script and write out what she said and how she said it? Do you have someone in your life you could ask them to do some role - play so that you can practice saying what you wanted to say, or what you now wish you had said? Someone who can play the part of your mother and let you explore what sorts of things you want to do and say to keep the next conversation to 10 minutes?

Being assertive with a PD parent is quite the minefield, I am sure a lot of here can attest to that. They don't take no for an answer, so keeping a phone call to 10 minutes with them is not like keeping it to 10 minutes with a non-disordered person. What works with most people certainly won't work with a PD parent who is intent on keeping us on the line.

We all know how effective PDs can be at keeping us on the line longer than we want to be. If I said "I have to go now" it was met with "oh so you don't think this is important" or "but ...." or some other tactic that blows past my attempt to end the phone conversation.

Do pat yourself on the back. I've had 2 hour phone convos with my PD parents that I wish had been 10 minutes.

It was very manipulative of her to get upset and then abruptly end the phone call on her own terms, making sure to say "yeah right" to you, which is very hurtful behaviour on her part. Not your fault at all that she acted out like this.

Trees

[NarcKiddo]

We all know how effective PDs can be at keeping us on the line longer than we want to be. If I said "I have to go now" it was met with "oh so you don't think this is important" or "but ...." or some other tactic that blows past my attempt to end the phone conversation.

I like your suggestion of practising a script, trees.

Regarding getting off the line, my heart sinks when my mother says "I'll just make myself a coffee" or "let me light my cigarette". However I have developed various excuses for why I have to go NOW. Online grocery delivery is a good one. Over here we have an hour time slot but they might turn up a bit early so if PD says "why did you call/answer if you knew there was a delivery coming?" you just claim it is early, or say "oh, gosh, I only rang to say xyz and had no idea we'd end up chatting for ages". I have a house line and a cell/mobile phone so if I am using one I can claim a client call is coming through on the other line. In a pinch I will need the bathroom. She might ask me to call back but I will generally "forget", at least until after I have had time to plan my lines.

[Sneezy]

I'm feeling fairly calm at the moment but I can see a few places in the interaction where I let my guard down/didn't know what to say and bumbled it up.  I should have cut it off right when she said she had a blunt question for me.  I definitely shouldn't have said we could talk about that topic when she was feeling better. I wasn't very good at grey rock/keeping a neutral tone but I'm glad that I at least attempted to draw the line. 

I've noticed that the better I get at grey rock/medium chill/boundaries, the better my mom gets at getting around all that.  They seem to learn right along with us.  And so, even if you executed your grey rock perfectly, your mom was going to find a way to circumvent at least some of what you were doing.  That doesn't mean you should give up on your strategies.  It just means that you give yourself a pat on the back for the parts of the interaction that went well, learn from the parts that didn't, and give yourself a whole bunch of credit for just making it through a long conversation with your mom.  It is hard work!  Our parents installed the very buttons that they continue to push.  They are the experts on us, because they made us who we are (i.e. the people who would soothe and take care of and cater to them later in life).  You got this and you will get better at it over time.

As far as the religion aspect, I don't know what religion you are, but I have a couple go-to stories when people get too pushy/personal about religion.  My first response is always to say how much I like my current church, but (as NarcKiddo said) I'm no expert theologian and can't really explain it all very well.  If someone continues to push, I will fall back onto the story of Jesus and the hypocrites (Matthew 6).  Don't pray out on the street corners where everyone can see you - it's between you and God.  So I tell people my faith is between me and God and I'm not going to get out on the street corner and talk about it - my faith is not a public discussion.

[Sojourner17]

Hi Narckiddo and trees. Thanks for the response. 
I think writing out the details of the convo and what was said could help as maybe I can pinpoint the places where I could interact in a better way that keeps my integrity but still draws a boundary. 
She was definitely trying to keep me on the line at the end and was getting more and more upset.  I was supposed to make her feel better. 

She said she genuinely wants to know what I'm doing regarding living our my faith. Perhaps in a way she does, but I don't trust her.  I've opened up about things like this in the past only to have her shut it down or bring confusion.

I need to formulate a better plan regarding the whole faith discussion.  What she was doing last night was definitely playing the victim and putting me in the roll of the bad daughter.  It felt as if she was trying to put me above her as someone whose duty it was to get her on the right path.  I don't think that's my duty.  You can't wrangle or cajole a person to follow the way you think to go.  Free will and all that. 

And yeah, at the end the behaviour was fairly childish.  It's the sort of things I see in my kids when they get upset.  They are still learning and it IS my job to teach them the way they should go.  My mom, not so much. 

I so wish I had a healthy older woman in my life that I could be friends with.  Or even just someone that I could be around and just silently observe how she is with her husband and kids. No need to actively support me, just let me watch what she does organically. 

Narckiddo, I usually use the "my kids need me...got to go!" I think she caught on to that one because now she dictates that they either be gone or be asleep to talk to me.  Last night I used the time difference "oh look it's 9 pm, 10 pm for you, I'm getting tired and still have lots to do!" She made a retort about how could I be more tired than her if it's an hour earlier here.  my parents are sometimes up until midnight.  It's amazing that it seems as if to her our lives mirror each other and that I can do the same thing as her then get up and do all the things I need to do the next day.  Cause, you know, I'm 30 years younger, she raised more kids at a time than I (completely different circumstances mind you), ect.

Thanks sneezy for the encouragement.  My DH, bless his soul, thinks that it should be easy to exit these convos. He's got her number for sure but grew up in a family that is fairly healthy/stable.  He's encouraging but sometimes doesn't understand how hard it is. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yes, I think overall you did fine. And you've gotten some good feedback. Your goal is not to not upset your mother, your goal is _____________. (Up to you!) It helps me when I need to interact with any difficult person to set my intention, if you will, and then judge how it went based on whether I achieved that objective or not. Find out x information, express something, whatever. Their emotion is not part of that equation. Or mine, either. I can go fight or flight but that doesn't mean I failed. I say to myself, "Stay on target." like at the end of the original Star Wars movie (Never mind that he blows up right after that!)

I think a useful tool for you might be the broken record. "I don't think it's a good idea for us to get into religion, Mom."

"But rhlsh B tjehejtkbs jrnsgekj!"

"I'm not willing to discuss it."

"Brkehbei the r Harvey shags!" 

"Ok, it's obvious this is not a helpful discussion. I'll talk to you another time. Bye."

You simply don't respond to the emotional content she's dumping on you. If you can't just hang up easily, at least you aren't giving her anything to work with saying the same thing over and over.

[moglow]

Sojourner, one thing that may help you going forward is, you don't have to answer every question or accept every challenge thrown at you. Feel free when put on the spot and ask things like: I'm not sure I understand your question. Why do you ask? I'll have to get back to you, I don't remember that right now. Maybe turn it around to what SHE thinks and have an actual conversation instead of her picking you apart. You always have the option to just call a day and admit you're getting nowhere.

Some of mother's similarly blunt questions turned out to be little more than fishing expeditions and setups for future confrontations. She saved up, in other words, blew random comments way out of proportion and took them out of context, building her imaginary drama fest. Declining those "conversations" takes practice but it sure feels good after!

[moglow]

But honestly - she "hurting" regarding this religious issue and you can somehow resolve it for her? I don't want to be insensitive but what was your role there?

My guess, you were expected to put yourself out there and then she argues that's not what you said before. [I've danced that one with mine. ] Okay. That was then, this is now. I've read more, learned more, experience etc.

Oh and the book you mentioned? So sorry you must have loaned it out and never got it back...

I'm less giving than I used to be, at least when it comes to md and her whims. Not sure that's a bad thing.

[Sojourner17]

I like your idea of trying to ask her questions about her question as well as the idea of being a broken record when she keeps on persisting.
The question she asked me that set of the downward spiral was whether or not i believed she was a Christian based on how we are walking out our faiths in quite different ways.
I could have said something along the lines of "I'm not sure I understand your question.  What do you mean by it?" or something like that. 
Pretty much after that question she began grilling me and pushing to get an answer and then from there she got emotional and upset and I could tell she wasn't really thinking anymore, just saying things based on emotion and starting to get really pushy and kind of mean.  Like she was trying to trip me up with questions such as don't you think you are obligated as a believer to tell people if they are on the wrong path?  I felt like I was being grilled by a lawyer who was trying to get me to trip up on my words.  Prior to that she was actually doing quite well and was happy and in a good mood.

yes, she's hurting because she thinks I'm looking down on her and judging her and not willing to talk about the issue/keeping her in the dark about what we are doing.  In the past i was the one who calmed her and told her everything was okay, basically pacified her and agreed with her.  Im not doing that anymore and she doesnt know what to do with it.

[Cat of the Canals]

But honestly - she "hurting" regarding this religious issue and you can somehow resolve it for her? I don't want to be insensitive but what was your role there?

I'm with moglow... this whole thing sounds very odd. Am I to understand that she wants you to criticize her on religious grounds? That she wants to be "called out" for not "doing as you do?" Like... why?????? 

Honestly, the only sense I can make of it is that she's setting a drama trap. She wants you to call her out and lecture her so she can play the victim. Or maybe, based on your most recent update, she's a more waify type and is essentially demanding you "parent" her, spiritually?

In any case, I think you have some good ideas going forward. "I'm not sure I understand your question.  What do you mean by it?" is a great way to turn it back on her.

I think you could also say something along the lines of, "You've brought this up before, and I'm just not sure what it is you want from me?" Even though you kinda do know what she wants, it never hurts to play dumb. You can get a long way with, "I'm not sure why you're so upset." and "You keep saying that but I don't know what it means."

If she starts demanding (again) that you be her personal spiritual guide, maybe something like, "I understand that's something you'd like me to do, but I can't/I'm not comfortable with that. I think this is something you should discuss with a/your pastor/priest/etc."

Also, as someone who gets flustered in the moment, it feels a little silly, but don't be afraid to write down a little script for if/when this comes up again. I printed out the Medium Chill guide and stuck it to my fridge for a long time. 

[Sojourner17]

Oh yeah, Cat, I get flustered.  Really flustered and then it feels as if my brain just shuts off.  I think having a script ready to go (phrases printed on index cards maybe) would really be helpful.  I kinda know the things that she keeps on trying to bring up with me so having some phrases to turn things around, or phrases that I could just repeat over and over again may really help.  Then at least if I feel like I'm shutting down I can pull them out and go into autopilot a bit which may give me time to think, or time to plan my exit.

yep, she wanted me to call her out and "stick it to her" i guess but i know what happens if you do that too.  Its never a good thing and would only serve to damage the relationship even more.  She wants to set up drama, and she is waify at the same time.  I think its the whole DARVO thing happening.  She knowingly (or unknowingly, I'm not sure which) sets things up and then flips them to make herself the victim, or justify her angry lashes.  Oh, and yeah, im supposed to parent her.  That's been a thing for years. 

The spiritual parenting has also been there for quite a while as well.  Especially since I went to a Christian seminary and got a degree there.  I don't remember it being as strong of a thing before that.  Its like i got that piece of paper and poof! instant guru.  And yet, at the time i was doing the degree she would criticize the program I was in, and saying that all the bible courses were a waste of money/time and why did I have to take them?  Funny thing is...my trajectory in my faith walk doesn't even follow what I learned there (though that learning DID help with the change in trajectory  ) Its like you MUST stay the same, no growth, and if there is growth or change its like