The light-bulb moments continue

[monamurre]

Need to vent here. I had a weird interaction with my mom yesterday. I am still wondering how much of it was manufactured (a mystery I'll never solve). I was also painfully reminded how transactional our interactions have become. As she ages, her interest in me, my family or anything outside her small world is rapidly decreasing. I spend a lot of time wondering how much of this is her PD and how much is typical of aging.

I won't bore you with the tedious details of the snafu with her phone account, but there were a few red flags in her side of the story including the contradiction that the apparent problem was that she couldn't call long distance, but, she somehow managed to call me (long- distance) to tell me this?

Does anyone else's PD parent use befuddlement with technology (and by technology here I am talking a cordless phone) and obfuscation to manipulate? I've had so many conversation with my mom about her inability to do this, or that, or the other. I've spent hours trying to show her how to simply click the Safari icon on her iPad to no avail. She still moans that she, "can never get on the internet", while she simultaneously is streaming shows on her iPad from my Amazon account. It seems like selective inability to me.

Then this phone call today......A bit of backstory: we hadn't been in contact since my visit a month ago. Since that visit my birthday passed with no acknowledgement from her. Between that and her cold behavior during our visit, I took it as a discard......

So, I got off the phone feeling pretty good. I didn't offer to jump in and solve the issue, I didn't get frustrated with her, I asked helpful questions, shared what little I knew and let her deal with it. She was more lucid than usual and not nasty despite me pressing her on some odd details of the story. Phew! I thought, that felt like an "okay" conversation for us.

Then five minutes elapsed and I thought, "wait a fucking minute!" She didn't ask how we were, didn't acknowledge that she had missed my birthday, didn't mention my husband birthday (which was that day). She called to get help with something that wasn't working for her and nothing else to say to me beyond that. That is not a "normal" conversation between parent and adult child.

[NarcKiddo]

All this is familiar territory for me.

My mother is perfectly capable of ordering goods online but every now and then she would contact me to say she was having problems with the site and could I just order the stuff and have it sent to her. I put a stop to that during Covid because she refuses to send reimbursement money direct to my bank account and insists on posting a cheque. Since the bank branches were closed I refused to take a cheque and she suddenly found it easier to order her own stuff than to learn how to do online banking.

This very weekend my sister was staying with the parents and when it was time to take her to the train station my mother claimed some warning lights came on when she started the car so my sister would have to go by taxi. There was a great fuss and panic by mother but the taxi was got and the journey was fine. My mother messaged me all about it and then told me again on the phone, totally ignoring the advice I had given her about dealing with these lights if they appear again. However we have had snow and ice here and my mother is refusing to drive anywhere, although the roads are all totally clear and safe. When I spoke with my sister she said she had looked at the dashboard but there were no warning lights at all. I suspect mother simply didn't want to drive. But instead of just saying so and booking a taxi (it is a short, cheap trip) she confected some panic about the car.

And during the phone call when mother was telling me about all this she did not ask anything about us, despite knowing we'd had a trip during snow storms and rail strikes and were seeing family (other side) from overseas.

[moglow]

Those lightbulbs just keep on coming, don't they? When mine started coming on, it's kinda like they were on dimmer switches so for a long time I overlooked them. Vented and cussed and stomped around then moved past it. Then one day everything got very bright - I stopped and paid attention. Nothing had changed, I just finally saw all of it.

The many phone calls where she cut me off within minutes, made excuses she needed to go and didn't bother to call back? I found out she was doing that with everyone and had been for years. The "conversations" that abruptly ended when I tried to make myself heard? Same. And claimed later "that never happened." But she could spout off decades-old resentments about all the times I "failed" her or "wasn't there for" her. Right. Her memory of pretty much anything involving others is minuscule, but she can go on and on about what her many disappointments - and you'd best remember exactly as she does or the flames start flying. She's the victim, always.

Her cell phone [her only technology] has been an ongoing issue, and I mean for years now. It's not HER phone that's the problem, it's mine or yours or the cell phone company. All the while she absolutely refuses to have her phone checked out, just keeps shutting people down and ranting about the way she's supposedly being treated. She acts like this is all new and just happened, but no. I decided to just call her home phone [cordless - I know this because I gave her the phones!], but "it's on the charger" and she can't hear it ... Move the chargers? No explanation of why that couldn't happen or that the whole idea of the pair of phones was to put them at easily accessible places in the house. She's now had the home phone disconnected because she got spam calls. She insisted that I text her because she always had her cell phone on her in case of falls etc. She stopped responding unless it was something she wanted, then claimed she didn't get my texts at all. But she didn't answer calls either.

My last phone call with her was thanksgiving and at that point I'd not called in about six months [the conversations prior to that had been very brief and ugly]. She never even asked how I spent thanksgiving or who I shared it with. Didn't mention any of my brothers, their families, our lives. Not even an acknowledgment that we'd not talked at all in months. We've reverted entirely to what I consider grocery store checkout conversations, polite impersonal and you move on without a hitch in your day.

I've come to the realization that mother never did show much interest. I tried to force it on her, make her see or acknowledge me, and it's just not in her. She's truly not interested and I don't see that she ever was. Brief blips way back when she "should" for appearance sake then more silence. She's tried to claim specific points in time where we supposedly went sideways, but none of her excuses hold water. She's completely overlooked other incidents and the way she repeatedly treated me and my brothers. Very selective memory is my only explanation - interestingly, something she accused me of as far back as I can remember.

You're right - none of this is normal. I've only faced that as I've grown older and shared conversations or incidents with friends and they are just blown away. They're saying things like: Wait, she didn't move heaven and earth to see her children and grandchildren all together [in september this year]?? Your brother was here on vacation with his family, hadnt seen her in over 12 years, and she made excuses until after they'd gone back home?? She really didn't see any of them? Yeah. That. It's nowhere near normal. It's MY normal, but no.

[wisingup]

Monamurre - its baffling, isn't it?  It's such childish behavior - I can't believe they think people will just believe their stories. 

When I first started to fall out with uBPDm, I told her I did not want to talk to her on the phone anymore.  She could email or text.  Well, she rapidly became incompetent at either of those & continued to call.  I let her calls go to VM & I would respond via email or text.  Then she claims she doesn't get my responses.  It's all very convenient.  I also asked her not to contact me during work hours unless it's an emergency, but she still does that as well.  After a lot of years of fighting the FOG, I now ignore her when she does.

It was my birthday a couple weeks ago.  She called - during work hours - the following day claiming she had tried to email on my birthday but couldn't.  She said she was not sure how to get my gift to me.  She did not request a response, so I didn't respond.  I'm pretty sure what she wanted was for me to offer to come get the gift.  Later she told my brother that she had sent me flowers & I never called to thank her. 

She's elderly now, so it can be hard to tease out the BS from the true incompetence.  But lies are lies.

[moglow]

I see what you're saying, Wisingup. The incompetence seems awfully convenient sometimes, doesn't it? How is it after 15+ years here does mine not know my work hours? They've not changed. At all. I don't work shifts or varying days, Monday through Friday in an office with set hours since the beginning. But she invariably calls during the workday, knowing I don't take personal calls at work - then complains that I never answer ... 

[Jolie40]

how old is your mom?

we have an over 80 neighbor & I have a friend (mom of a HS friend over 80

I do find that over 80 people are forgetful
they are still sharp sometimes but the memory is slipping

MIL is over 80, also & does have trouble with the ipad
even if someone explains step-by-step, she still has trouble
they didn't grow up with the internet so it all can be confusing

[JenniferSmith]

I think this is tricky territory when it comes to elderly PD parents.  I happen to have two good friends who are in the 65-70 age range, and I am noticing memory and other mild cognitive issues with them very slowly over the past couple of years. These are not PD people at all. 

So I think that for those who have dealt with a PD parent for decades, it can be even more challenging to face these sorts of issues, as we don't have that healthy loving bond with them that we would have with a non-pd parent.  I know that as things like anxiety emerge for elderly people, it can cause changes in their behavior in ways that frustrate those around them.  Its very possible that an elderly parent has PD, but then also begins to develop other mental health issues, as well as cognitive changes. The person themselves may lack awareness of what is happening to them, so they are just acting out based on these changes going on in their brain and body, and have no clue about the impact it has on those around them.

People who are fortunate enough to have a generally mentally healthy parent for most of their life often find dealing with their parent as they age quite challenging. To throw PDs into that mix... wow... its a lot.

[Srcyu]

My npd mother was always like that long before she was considered 'elderly.'  She did not care nor took any interest in what happened to me. Technology was avoided until it suited her to use it. I would definitely say it is all pd linked before bringing age into it.

It's interesting to read the definitions of 'elderly' here, ' I'm only one year away from that label apparently.

[overitall]

My uNPDf refused to use his cell phone to call and/or text....said he couldn't figure it out because it was too difficult.  He also did not like driving because he "didn't feel safe"  When I found out he contacted my adult child to say he was concerned that I was only taking him to church to gain his inheritance I called him and said I am done.  Miraculously, he blew up my phone, my adult kids phones, and actually drove to one of my adult children's house to try to deny everything....It's amazing how proficient they can be when they need to....

[Pepin]

Sadly, CN MIL was like this, too.  I felt that she was operating under weaponized incompetence.  I cannot believe that someone in their late 50s could have struggled as much as she did with technology -- and that was a few decades ago!  Even a land line telephone was confusing.  Y'all dial the buttons...it's not that hard.  And many other things were just "too hard" for her to do.  How is that?  Because she didn't want to learn anything new for fear of losing control...

[p123]

Oh definitely.....

Thing to remember is ITS ALL ABOUT THEM.

Playing dumb with something and getting you to do it achieves 2 things:-

1. They're too lazy and can't be bothered.
2. It gives them a warm feeling that they've got you doing it.

Dad is a nightmare. Hes got a cell phone never leaves the box.
Hes got a mobility scooter wont use - its too hard.
He wont use his phone because he can't hear  - won't get a new hearing aid to replace the 30 year old one hes got.

He often goes out with his cousin whos 3 years younger. His cousin takes his cellphone - tick. His cousin pushes him around in a wheelchair - tick. His cousin comes to his house and makes all his calls for him - tick. His cousin drives him everywhere.

In the past his cousin has asked me to ask Dad to lay off him a little. Told Dad - in one ear and out the other.

Bottom line is they do not care unless they get what they want.

[wisingup]

Monamurre - its baffling, isn't it?  It's such childish behavior - I can't believe they think people will just believe their stories.

When I first started to fall out with uBPDm, I told her I did not want to talk to her on the phone anymore.  She could email or text.  Well, she rapidly became incompetent at either of those & continued to call.  I let her calls go to VM & I would respond via email or text.  Then she claims she doesn't get my responses.  It's all very convenient.  I also asked her not to contact me during work hours unless it's an emergency, but she still does that as well.  After a lot of years of fighting the FOG, I now ignore her when she does.

It was my birthday a couple weeks ago.  She called - during work hours - the following day claiming she had tried to email on my birthday but couldn't.  She said she was not sure how to get my gift to me.  She did not request a response, so I didn't respond.  I'm pretty sure what she wanted was for me to offer to come get the gift.  Later she told my brother that she had sent me flowers & I never called to thank her. 

She's elderly now, so it can be hard to tease out the BS from the true incompetence.  But lies are lies.

So here's a bit of an update on my post above from a few days ago.  (BTW - elderly in this case refers to age 84)  Brother called to say he'd taken her to lunch over the weekend & she is really losing it.  She is losing her words and often couldn't remember the correct one.  She had tried to send me birthday flowers & it got messed up somehow & she is trying to fix it.  So that changes the above for me in terms of the balance between age and manipulation.  BUT, that doesn't account for the past 50 plus years when she was not so elderly & she behaved similarly.  Also, her way of asking for help has always been is to get upset and frustrated and vent it onto someone else until they offer to fix the problem just to calm her down.  If she did what she could, then kindly asked for help with specific things she was struggling with, we'd be delighted to help her.  Really, it all comes down to wanting her to treat us kindly & honestly without manipulation.

[monamurre]

"Also, her way of asking for help has always been is to get upset and frustrated and vent it onto someone else until they offer to fix the problem just to calm her down.  If she did what she could, then kindly asked for help with specific things she was struggling with, we'd be delighted to help her.  Really, it all comes down to wanting her to treat us kindly & honestly without manipulation." Wisingup



This is totally how my mom deals with everything. See problem coming, do nothing to mitigate, have melt down, wait for someone to fix it. She vehemently swears she, "never asked so and so for nothing!" whenever I point this out. Never mind that she yelled, screamed, hyper-ventilated and started beating her dog out of frustration....I'm so disgusted by her not owning her behavior or seeing how it influences others trying to run around and fix stuff for her. Which she then complains about because they didn't do it they way she wanted....I guess we are supposed to read her mind?

To answer an earlier question, my mom is 74. She has health issues and in the last year has lost her vision. So, I don't expect her to get the iPad now. But, she has had it for 10 years! She had fine eyesight then, she was able to drive herself 1000 miles to visit, so I don't buy that she couldn't hit the internet explorer icon......

I am very sympathetic to her health limitations as she ages and have suggested multiple things to help, getting more caregiving hours, staying with us during recoveries from physical issues, etc. Hell, we even helped build a new house on her property so she could age in place (probably a mistake). So, I feel like I have been more than willing to help. But when her way of asking for help is to break into an abusive tirade....I'm out. I am not obligated to witness that, intervene, or run around trying to manage her feelings for her.

Recently her neighbors/caregiver (who is also bad with technology) called in a tizzy because we, "need to get her on the internet!" as if that would solve all the problems?  I recognized that the woman was just grasping for something to stem the bitter complaints from my mom and give herself a break. So, I calmly explained that if it hadn't worked in the last 10 years, it wasn't going to somehow magically work now that mom can't see and seems to have had some cognitive decline. I also tried to explain that SHE IS ON THE INTERNET - literally sitting at home streaming Amazon shows.....while complaining that she can't get on the internet. The woman flipped out on me, yelled and hung up. Well, that got my dander up and I picked up the phone, called my mom and told her to reign in her henchman, I was sick of dealing with them ranting at me about problems that don't exist. Pro forma, my mom claims, "I never asked her to do that!" It still felt good to tell her off. While I sympathize that things get harder as you age (mentally and physically) I am not willing to be a punching bag. So until she learns to ask for help with a modicum of civility, I am not helping. I'm clear on that.

[wisingup]

Monamurre - I'm sorry, it sounds like the caregiver is at her breaking point as well. 

For all the posters on this thread - are you someone who is generally very organized & fixes problems as they arise?  I think my uBPDm targets me and also her sister because we are that kind of person.  Also, we stay calm on the outside (lots of internalized turmoil that comes out later) so she doesn't see the damage and stress inflicted on us when she dumps her responsibilities on us.

[monamurre]

Thanks Wisingup, it is always nice to be heard.

Funny you should ask about fixing problems. I am literally a professional problem fixer (project manager and operations manager)! So, even when I don't know how to do something, I am usually game to try to figure it out.

I think I ended up in this line of work partly because I was so well-trained for it in childhood. I am currently exploring what else I might be outside of my FOO role for me.

[wisingup]

Lol, I am also an operations manager.   

[olivegirl]

My uBpd Queen/Witch mother, age 72, feigns confusion and blatantly maliciously lies about her finances because her plan is to move into my house and order me around and make me her 24/7 servant.

Sometimes when I would call her out on her lies, she whimpers that she has early dementia because she wants to be doted on.

When she would visit, she became very authoritarian and berate that it is my duty to grant her every command because the Bible says Respect and Obey your parents.
😐

Tired of the lies, the degradation, the manipulation, the planned exploitation—I have been No Contact for 6 months.

I think they definitely get more desperate and they feel entitled to act out.

[p123]

My uBpd Queen/Witch mother, age 72, feigns confusion and blatantly maliciously lies about her finances because her plan is to move into my house and order me around and make me her 24/7 servant.

Sometimes when I would call her out on her lies, she whimpers that she has early dementia because she wants to be doted on.

When she would visit, she became very authoritarian and berate that it is my duty to grant her every command because the Bible says Respect and Obey your parents.
😐

Tired of the lies, the degradation, the manipulation, the planned exploitation—I have been No Contact for 6 months.

I think they definitely get more desperate and they feel entitled to act out.

Good for you..... I get the old "Bible says....." thing too.

Dad was once very rude about a friend of mine whos in a gay marriage. He works as a child psychologist and Dad said "perverts like that shouldnt be allowed to work with kids". I was livid....
Dads excuse "well it says in the Bible......." Jeez give me a break.