Shared fantasy

[escapingman]

I just came back to watching some videos by Richard Grannon again and he started talking about shared fantasy and pointed the viewers to a video by Sam Vaknin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp3YFC0OQfU

This is probably the best video on narcissism and the target I have ever seen, ever. It explains it in to detail and it explains why it feels to leave your own child and mother at once. This resonates so much with how my relationship with STBX was and I can see the roles we both played in the marriage. If you have 45 minutes to invest in yourself, please watch it.

To you SoT if you read this, remember we spoke about leaving our STBX's felt like abandoning our own child, I understand it fully now.

For you that doesn't have the time to watch it, in short you the narcissist becomes your mother and you become the narcissists mother.

[escapingman]

This is getting heavy, I have read some more about this and I think I am starting to get it and where I fit in to this. To end the shared fantasy, and to never be able to get back to it, according to Sam Vaknin, I should cheat on STBX. Now, thinking of this I realise everything Sam says about the shared fantasy is true, to cheat and end the fantasy I am getting extremely stressed and anxious. Somewhere deep down it feels safe to keep this going, and by ending the fantasy I would ultimately cut off STBX which feels like abandoning my child. But as long as this fantasy exist, I am still under her influence in some way, this despite the separation, divorce, court battle, anything. As long as the fantasy is still alive, I will never truly be free.

[escapingman]

When I wrote cheat in the previous post it's not only cheating in a sexual capacity, but triangulation is also mentioned. I haven't fully understood the triangulation part so I will need to dig deeper on this. I also need to dig deeper on if there are other ways that will assist with erasing the shared fantasy and make me move on.

[square]

I was planning to check out your link. But I just want to point out, though I haven't watched it yet, something important to keep in mind.

Sam is a narcissist. His insights are valuable to us, but while he can share how a narcissist thinks, he does not really know how a healthy individual should heal. So take it with a grain of salt.

Same with Grannon, great stuff there but he is not as healthy as he advertises himself. Don't get swept away. Keep standing on your own two feet and decide on your own what is valuable to you to take from these men.

[SonofThunder]

Hi EM,

I see you mentioned me in your original post. Ive not watched the video yet either and I don't have 45 min at this time, but yes, that feeling we discussed is mutual. I do understand like you, that it is a very twisted, parent/child abandonment feeling. 

As an off-the-cuff opinion on what you wrote: "... and by ending the fantasy I would ultimately cut off STBX which feels like abandoning my child. But as long as this fantasy exist, I am still under her influence in some way"

I do not believe it is my role to somehow try to end a 'fantasy' of another person. In fact, that concept is against the grain of proper boundaries, and is allowing my actions and reactions, to continue to be emotionally steered by a PD.  Imo that concept is more 'caretaking' behavior for me to believe that I need to be the puppeteer of the fantasy that may live in the mind of another person.   

On the contrary, i may have played a role in a fantasy relationship for a long time, but it is my focus to remove only myself from the script.  I believe that time itself, along with a continually forward-moving, legal and shared asset dissolution, will solidify the fact that any fantasy is not possible, without my having to demonstrate anything. 

The "abandoning our own child" feelings are surely real, but i believe they are the slowly subsiding withdraw symptoms of the ending of an unbalanced relationship. I must simply focus on moving forward with living the rest of my life, continue the legal separation process and let time's incredible healing methods, do its thing. 

Im sorry each of us has to suffer so in this slow process, and Im glad to have you as my friend and comrade along this difficult and time-consuming journey. 

SoT

[escapingman]

SoT, thanks for your thoughts on this subject.

I am not talking about STBX part in the fantasy, she successfully made me part of her fantasy and that then became a shared fantasy. I fully bought in to her fantasy and despite feeling I lived in a parallel world together with STBX I felt like it was safer to stay there than breaking free, until I couldn't stay any longer. I am still feeling the bond to her, although much less than before, but I am still doing things thinking about what she would think about things, and obviously still terrified about dating another person as that would be the ultimate betrayal. I might never feel comfortable with dating, I don't know, but I want to get rid of the feeling that I still in some way belong to her and how she would react if I moved on to a new relationship.

Square, I am aware of both of them and I am not religiously buying in to everything they say. But if you are prepared to take a bit of Sam, a bit of Grannon, a bit of Ramani, a bit of Les and a bit of Narcdaily and add it all together I think you get most of it sorted in your head. It's just how to process the reality and move on.

[hhaw]

I found Sam's advice was detrimental to my situation.

Researching co dependence and working with trauma informed T would have helped me SO much more, if I could go back and if I could have HEARD what was being shared.

[escapingman]

I found Sam's advice was detrimental to my situation.

Researching co dependence and working with trauma informed T would have helped me SO much more, if I could go back and if I could have HEARD what was being shared.

I gotta take alot he says with a pinch of salt as STBX is a completely different narc than he is and he describes, but his explanations makes a lot of sense to something impossible to make sense of. But the only way forward is working with ourselves and leave the narc behind and cut out all memories.

[hhaw]

A poster on another board saud she had to accept the PD she thought she married had died.  This made it possible for her to accept the false mate she'd fallen in love with was really gone....never to return.

What's the saying?

It's hope that kills us.

Ya.  That's it.

[escapingman]

A poster on another board saud she had to accept the PD she thought she married had died.  This made it possible for her to accept the false mate she'd fallen in love with was really gone....never to return.

What's the saying?

It's hope that kills us.

Ya.  That's it.

That is exactly how I am trying to deal with it, it works most of the times but sometimes I am getting flashbacks and my brain tries to trick me. I have cried, grieved and screamed she doesn't exist. I just had a bad moment yesterday when dealing with the Christmas lights and saw a note written by her about which room the lights belonged to, such a minor thing but really triggered me.

[SonofThunder]

.... I am still doing things thinking about what she would think about things, and obviously still terrified about dating another person as that would be the ultimate betrayal.

My opinion is that the suggestion of dating to try and end a fantasy (yours, stbx's or both) is still about the PD. 

In my opinion, dating is not something I would do to attempt to end some emotional hangup in which I may be attached.  I also believe dating before being emotionally resolved to the past, is not kind or fair to the other person on the date.  Dating with an ulterior motive is like utilizing the date as a tool. Ive been treated in tool fashion by PD's for too long, and im not doing that to another person.   

I also like this statement from hhaw:  "... accept the false mate she'd fallen in love with was really gone....never to return."

If I was fully reconciled with that type of acceptance and my motives for dating were purely on having/building new relationships (not assisting to dissolve the past), then imo, dating is not using the other person as any type of tool. 

*I have still not watched the video, so only commenting on what has been stated in the thread. 

SoT

[escapingman]

SoT, I think my thoughts are coming though a bit confusing. With the dating, right now I have no intention what so ever to do this. I would not date just to kill a fantasy. I completely get what Sam speaks about as it applies to me, it's still their in the back of my mind and in some way I still feel some kind of obligation to STBX. In theory, if I "cheated" it could set me free, or make it way worse. I don't know.

[Rose1]

In my experience the freedom comes with time and working on ourselves. Quite a bit of time depending on how deep the fog was and how much we were exhausted by it all.

I agree with sot that dating shouldn't happen until we have sorted ourselves out. DHs grandfather had a good philosophy. We need to be happy and able to function well as a single person before we can expect to be a good contributor to a new relationship. IE comfortable in our own skin.

In my experience we don't even know what that is for a couple of years at least after a long pd relationship.

[escapingman]

Rose, never mind dating but I am just about starting social relations with just having a coffee with someone. Picked DD up from a friend today and was invited in for a coffee, not used to it but loved a casual chat with no FOG surrounding it. I am healing, I know I am, but it is taking time.

[SonofThunder]

SoT, I think my thoughts are coming though a bit confusing. With the dating, right now I have no intention what so ever to do this. I would not date just to kill a fantasy. I completely get what Sam speaks about as it applies to me, it's still their in the back of my mind and in some way I still feel some kind of obligation to STBX. In theory, if I "cheated" it could set me free, or make it way worse. I don't know.

EM so sorry to not be understanding your comments.  I will therefore sit quietly and simply read the thread going foward, vs sidetrack it by my lack of comprehension. 

SoT

[escapingman]

SoT, please don't.  Stay in the conversation.  I am confusing because I am confused myself. I am trying to find a solution to something I am not sure what problem really is. I think I am getting there, but it takes a lot of energy and work.

[SonofThunder]

SoT, please don't.  Stay in the conversation.  I am confusing because I am confused myself. I am trying to find a solution to something I am not sure what problem really is. I think I am getting there, but it takes a lot of energy and work.

Ok EM.  I watched the Sam V video in full, so i can possibly converse better with you in this thread. Imo, he details his very deep phycological analysis of the entire IDD cycle. 

I will say, just prior to his final recap, i believe he muddies his step-by-step by circling back slightly, but the final recap herds it all up nicely once again, so i was grateful for his final recap. 

I don't follow Sam's video's, so I do not know his education background and/or his professional experience with narcissists.  Therefore:

A: I ask the question of the source(s) with which he obtains the details of what he is teaching in this video.  And..

B: A term he uses at the end, to describe the narcissists only way to move on to a new partner if the previous partner exits the IDD cycle.  It sounds as if he is saying "multification" or "motification".  His accent is thick, so I could not grasp that term. 

Otherwise, i find his detailed analysis of the internal process steps (like a patterned script for a necessary mental exercise; a play of sorts), with which the narcissist follows with the target (who has a leading role in this drama), to be fairly easy to comprehend.  I dont find it necessary for me to understand, but i can make his analysis fit into my current understanding and experiences. 

Again, I am willing to have an enjoyable discussion on the subject, but the video is imo, an attempt to teach the viewer Sam's (other's?) psychology behind the actions/reactions and thought processes in the disordered individual.  Imo, diving that deep into the mind of the PD, does not assist me in great ways.  In fact, after listening to him (and if i desire to accept his analysis), then in a way, i understand how i became an 'introject' altered snapshot-actor in the PD's mental process play he describes. But, it also sounds like mental hell for the PD, because no matter what, the process always ends in co-devaluation, which is no mental victory for the PD, but rather forces them to start over again...ie the 'IDD cycle'.  That sounds like mental torture in which i do not wish on anyone. 

Now, to your original and second post in the thread:  I do not understand where in that video you conceptualized the target's role in ending the 'shared fantasy' (IDD cycle).  I did not glean any of that from the video.  The video simply explained Sam's detailed psychoanalysis of the mind of the PD's scripted IDD play, and the role of the target in that script. 

Did you by chance get highly focused on Sam's step two of dual motherhood?  I surely understand the unhealthy role that I play(ed) in relationships with my uPDf and stbx, but i must remember that psych teachings, tie these disorders to under-development in the social and emotional parts of the mind of these people. 

Therefore, my shared (and continued) feelings of abandoning a child, imo stem from the very long, unhealthy, unbalanced, groomed relationship I have had with a person who I have been emotionally hosting.  Imo, my 'parental' feelings stem from my decades of being in this foggy play.  I believe that if my role was very short-lived, that I would have little-to-no feelings of abandoning a child.  I do not believe I am disordered in feeling this way, but simply conditioned for SO long, that I feel this way.  I also believe that feeling is amplified because my spouse is female and that my male attributes play into my feelings.  Im also a father, and imo, my father experiences and role also assists in heightening my 'abandoning a child' feelings regarding my stbx. 

Back to application to Sam's video:  I was a perfect target for my role in my stbx's scripted play because I myself was groomed by a uNPDf and caretaking-example mother, into the perfect starring 'caretaker' role for my stbx.  But, before i met my stbx, I was not a cast-member in her needed play.  She had a boyfriend in which they also shared a many-year on/off (cyclic) relationship.  Therefore I can also step out of my role in the play, and let time do it's magic. 

Sam's step 2 description of dual motherhood is simply a necessary and temporary role that the PD internally creates, so the PD can 'grow up' and leave that mental projection of the dysfunctional mother in which they were raised. But, Sam's process goes quickly beyond step two into step three (and beyond) of the mental discard of the dual mother by the tool of devaluation.  So, imo the grooming of the mother role by idealization is simply to build-up, so that a tearing-down may occur, providing a hopeful path for the PD to mentally 'grow up' and leave the mother-role of the target. 

Again, I do not find Sam's video to teach that the target is mentally stuck in some shared fantasy of their own with the PD, and that the target must somehow end the fantasy.  Imo, the only reason we targets are in a 'shared' fantasy is because we cant read minds; we are always in a defensive (not offense) position.  We cannot see the scripted fantasy play being carried out in the mind of the PD.  We are kept on our heels in the F.O.G., so that the PD may keep their solo internal fantasy play going while we stay steps behind in the script. 

From Sam's description, the PD would actually like the play to occur only one time, so that the PD may finally 'grow-up' and discard the mother and get on with life, but because the PD can never deal with the snapshot/introject/altered-image of the target 'dual-mother' in their mind, they never do reach their goals, and in a sad way, must repeat the play over and over again. If they lose their target role cast-member partner through divorce, death, whatever, they will have to fill that empty role with another cast member.  Like I wrote prior, that sounds mentally agonizing for the PD. 

But... I have been the very real victim in this foggy play for too long, and the PD is an adult, who covertly hid the fact that I was cast for a role at all.  In proper boundaries, I'm simply going to focus on my self-protection (in this case legal protection) and whatever the PD must do to fill my empty cast-member shoes is her decision. Not my script. Never was my script. 

I understand what my role was in her (and my uNPDf's) script, and I know I've been emotionally and physically damaged by being in this role for WAY too long.  Im not sharing the fantasy play... I didnt even know there WAS a fantasy.  I thought I was getting married. I thought I was being a son. Turns out I was both, but that there was always an ulterior self-need motive that my 'son' and my 'husband' role allowed for the under-developed adults in my life.  Im writing my own script from here on, and at the same time, working on my damaged parts. 

Im getting on with living.  At the same time, I believe I can love my father and love my stbx in possible ways without me being in their play. History cannot be erased. My long relationships with both are my history.  These people are human beings and I will respect and care about their equal rights as such on this Earth, while I also live my own life alongside these and other potentially underdeveloped human beings. 

SoT

[escapingman]

Thanks for your reply SoT.

Sam Vaknin is a professor in phycology and a diagnosed narcissist and psychopath. He works close with Richard Grannon and Grannon always uses Vaknins theories. It is pretty deep what they are talking about, but I think a lot of it makes sense. But, although all narcs follow the same script more or less, they are all individuals and will act different. I believe my STBX would easy jump back into the idealise stage with me would I let her. If I would not have exited the relationship the IDD with her would most likely continued until one of us died. She had me in permanent discard and devalue most of the last 5 years with only occasional idealise. First time I saw her after separation, we had gone thought our firts court hearing and she was forced to leave the house. You would have thought she would hate me and be screaming through the car window. What did she do? She was blowing kisses to me. Absurd, but I get it with the IDD as it just don't make sense.

I have watched a few videos from Richard Grannon about this and also read an article Sam wrote for a university in Australia. It has helped me tremendously to see my role in this and looked back on my life. I am not going to share that now, but I played a part in this as much as STBX. I don't think either of us knew, BUT it was always her decision to abuse. Hers and only hers, that is why I left. Now I am on the healing path and I need to look at my self very hard in a mirror and peal off all of those onion layers and find myself.

[SonofThunder]

EM, thanks for the details on Sam.  Yes, i agree, the video is deep from a psych understanding into the "onion" of the PD. As an INTJ, i enjoyed the deep dive into the psych mindset that Sam's shared fantasy script described.  I can very easily fit that script into my life. 

If I was still in the fog, I believe his video would be very difficult to comprehend.  Not being in the fog any longer, I am now able to recognize that end-to-end view of the IDD cycle's patterned steps in my history, my role in the IDD, and understand.  But as you well stated:

"... I am on the healing path and I need to look at my self very hard in a mirror and peel off all of those onion layers and find myself."

Imo, focusing on finding myself is a healthy, steady process. I don't believe its a quick process and i'm ok with that.  For me personally, that is exactly why I will remain single. But I'm an introvert and can be my own best friend.  I enjoy relationships with other humans as well, both from a female and male perspective, but I do not believe for me, it is wise (nor fair to another) to attempt a companion relationship while I am on a long journey to unravel, discover and practice being myself, after decades of playing a manipulated role as a cast-member in a needy person's play.   

To each his own on companionship.  Imo, I can enjoy a lifetime of friendships and acquaintances, as well as continue in my role of friend and dad to my adult kids.  I will also continue to desire for what is best and care about my stbx, and I understand that will constantly change shape as time marches onward.  It will be emotionally challenging and I accept the challenge. 

With regard to this thread and the potential of a psych-analysis of the 'shared fantasy', I am not allowing myself to be in that foggy role, now that I am actually aware of my past role in the IDD (through a variety of educational resources including Out of the FOG).  Therefore, what my stbx does with any needed fantasy-script she may have, is up to her.  I will not spend any of my time or energy trying to assist any fantasy-script that may exist with my stbx, in her acceptance of and/or filling of the void of my self-removal as a cast member. 

I also fully recognize that in the IDD cycle, the void that currently exists, is a deep emotional chasm for my stbx, and her experiences of abandonment during this void period, is not only very difficult for her, but emotionally difficult for me as well, to watch a family member; a loved one; suffer.  Its very much an emotional push-pull for me.  Due to my role over decades, its that feeling (you and I share) that I abandoned my young daughter in a scary, overwhelming world.  I must accept that I am facing these emotions, while at the same time working on my own "onion layers".  That is a push-pull.

Im glad to read that like me, you are able to see the end-to-end IDD cycles of your history, and understand how your FOO played a major part in long term well-grooming you for the starring role as 'caretaker' in the life of a PD.  My PD's are very high radar and they recognize and understand the groomed traits in me and know that my onion has been very pliable in order to shape it to fit their hidden needs. Understanding all this is such a gift to me now, yet at the same time a curse. But its my life and I will live it;  I will try my best to shape my onion going forward, and the only fantasy will be me living my daydreams. 

SoT

[StartingHealing]

EM,

For me what I did to assist myself in moving forward was to have a "funeral" for the person that I had built up in my head of who I conceived she was.  I had to grieve and also give myself an ending.   I took photos, cards, letters, and I had a funeral pyre to show my sub-conscious that the relationship that I had thought I had was over.

  It was after that ritual where I found myself realizing, ( this is only my case, others may have differing thoughts ) that I was an object to her.  I was the actor in the movies that she was directing and starring in.  I wasn't a real person to her.  That to me made sense and it also explained enough of the "why" she behaved in the way that she did.  On the occasions where I exhibited creativity, insight, or some type of meta-skill that she couldn't produce herself, she would be exceptionally jealous which usually happened shortly after she realized that she couldn't produce the same.  In her case the IDD cycle could be very very short.  She could go from I to D to D back to I in less than an hour.

  Like SoT, I to was groomed as a child by the person in the roll of mother in the family that adopted me.  Add in that it was a active working family farm and I got the caretaking behaviors down pat. Much to my detriment.  stbx is legally an adult with the resultant rights and responsibilities.  As a father and going through 2 children leaving and making it on their own, also helps with it.  While as a father the tendency is to protect there comes a time where you have to allow them to do their thing without you.  Does that make sense?  As such, stbx choices, her emotional state, her $ situation, her living situation, her employment situation, is all on her.  Just like when a child moves out and starts their own life.

I too get knocked off my square, however that has been happening less and less.  A couple of things that I remind myself of are  1. She was ALWAYS directing a movie, she was ALWAYS in a role.   2. The person that I fell in love with never existed.  That she was a combination of bits that I had built up in my head and she was playing a role, that she was never "real" . ( Thank you Jocko Wilnik)  Yes, I've had to grieve the "what might have beens" and the time lost along with the other grieving that comes from something ending. 

I would suggest that you consider having a ceremony of your choosing.  I chose a pyre because of the symbology related to it.  Pick something that "speaks" to you on an emotional / instinctual level bypassing the conscious filters.  If you think about it, your conscious isn't where the emotional patterns in humans reside, in that case doing something that bypasses it and speaks to your deeper mind (where I think the well worn grooves for emotional patterns / learned instinctual patterns are)  reside. 

When I did my funeral pyre it went something like this:   

I played the proper music for a funeral, I had a procession, I laid out the wood, and after the wood was fully caught and burning well, I then started feeding a photo into the fire.  Then a letter, then the print out of all the crazy text messages, then another photo, Then a card, allowing enough time for each piece to be completely consumed before feeding the next piece in.  After the last piece was fed in and consumed.  I allowed all the pain, anger, loss to come to the surface and be expressed.  After I had no more tears, I sat and watched the wood burn to ash.  Then I went and had a fantastic meal at a restaurant.  Being recently cleared of all the pent up emotions, I did notice that the waitress flirted with me a bit.  Very light, playful, which she didn't do with the other male patrons in the section where I was sitting.  That was so totally amazing to me!  Like Holy S--t! This woman is attracted to me?  Of course I responded in kind.  It was such a refreshing experience which totally made me reconsider how I viewed myself in that regard. (which was a projection from the stbx as another means to keep me bound to her)   When I returned and the ashes were cold, they then were buried to nurture the soil for next years flowers.  The emotional charge associated with memories was tremendously reduced and the "color" of them was now black and white.

A bit over the top?  Perhaps.  Doing that though, really helped me on an emotional / learned instinctual level which gave me closure and more peace.   I firmly believe that had I not done the pyre before going to eat, I would not have been in a place where I could have been open to an attractive member of the opposite sex expressing interest.  Did that enjoyable interaction go anywhere?  No.  The point is it happened and I enjoyed it.  How exceptionally refreshing for me.

I feel that there are times where some sort of action needs to be taken to show the deeper parts of ourselves that situation XYZ or ABC or 31425 is over.  Completely over.  Once that gets through to the deeper parts of mind it is so very beneficial in many ways.  I've found myself having more fun, increased confidence in myself, more willing to try new things, even new hobbies, ( film photography) reading books that I would have never considered reading before.  It's like, there was a 30000 ton weight on me, pressing on every single part of me and the pyre removed that.

I do hope that this has helped Em.  Wishing you and yours all the best.