I feel maybe knowing about PD's is making it harder?

[rockandhardplace]

Before xmas I fell for some bait. I knew I was in a sense but wanted to capture his abuse in writing. He did things like accuse me of ridiculous things and then excused his abuse as being justified. Eg. didn't deny name calling but said I don't do enough so I am lazy and I don't have a job so I am stupid. That kind of thing. Other things like blocking my exits from rooms he didn't try and deny either but said it's not as bad as what I do - the made up abuse. The made up abuse that is so ridiculous and so easy to defend if ever came to it. But he went so far this time as to extend his crazy gaslighting into making up conversations that literally change our whole family story. I'm rattled by his ability to lie like this. To lie to me about things that happened between us. Really major things like never agreeing for me to be a stay at home mom. For over a decade. He wants to convince me that for 10 years I refused to work, despite there being not one email or text amongst hundreds on this and him depositing his full pay every week into our joint account. The thing that gets me is just how insane his gaslighting is and how utterly impossible it is to ever think I could have a rational conversation with this man. And that's the thing that is really getting to me. I have a plan for my escape but it's complicated and is supposed to involve finding a job and finding the right lawyer and counsellors and getting strong enough to fight him so he doesn't destroy my children's lives completely. But he is home now every day, all day and I can't be in the same room as him. I hear him talk to the kids about holidays and renovations and I don't know what he's going to do or how much of our money he will spend while I'm getting my ducks lined up. It's like I finally get that there is no talking to him ever about anything. Nothing good can ever come of it. I literally have years of emails and texts I can read with the same blame, criticisms, deflections etc and now he's added extreme gaslighting. Or maybe I've just started to see that, probably been there all along. I'm so GR that I'm literally disappearing out of existence and that seems to help him not bother with me but I can't spend any time with my children when I'm invisible. In a way I feel more trapped than ever. Knowing that I will never be able to have any kind of rational discussion with the father of my children about anything, ever.

[SonofThunder]

Hello rockandhardplace,

Im sorry you are experiencing the feeling of "disappearing".  You wrote:

"I'm so GR that I'm literally disappearing out of existence and that seems to help him not bother with me...".

Imo, the feedback provided to you of  "...not bother with me" is actually good feedback for you to know that your GR is achieving it's goal for you.  Well done! 

Imo, the purpose of GR is to self-protect.  GR is a 'boundary' on our own behaviors (actions and reactions) and proper boundaries should always be focused on self-protection, not punishment.  Again, great job on protecting yourself with GR to the point where your partner has found interaction with you to be boring. 

In my experiences, dealing with PD's always results in a double-bind for me ( two negatives choices).  Imo, the double-binds are perfectly designed by the PD to protect themselves from having to face themselves, as no matter route we non's choose, there are always penalties to pay. These penalties provide the PD the fuel-supply they need to feel good about themselves (control/power), otherwise they would face the reality of having neither, and instead look to themselves for gratification, in which there is an emptiness, because PD's need others to host their emotions. 

In the IDD cycle, the two D's are devaluation and discard.  In my experiences, the point of devaluation is to force compliance in the non, so that idealization may occur again as the PD's prize to the non for compliance. But each time around the ID-ID-ID cycles, my compliance to-do list got longer and larger, as the PD needed change in order to keep them interested and feeling good about themselves. When a PD has caretaking servant(s) to do the work to reach their changing aspirations, then life is grand for them and life stinks for everyone else.  In this entire hampster-wheel, the gaslighting had a purpose of keeping me off-balance, discouraged and steps behind the PD, which is an offensive (vs defensive) benefit for the PD to carry out the cycle plans. 

When I finally became aware of all this and was not clouded by fog, I (like you), implemented the wonderful, self-protecting tools in the Out of the FOG toolbox, and kept educating myself into the PD's playbook (Out of the FOG, Dr Ramani, others), my 'caretaking' behaviors (Fjelstad's wonderful book) and a lot of self work, including understanding my FOO and why/how I became a perfectly groomed mate for a PD.  That education and application vaulted me out of ID hamster-wheel and in expected further double-bind, landed me squarely in the last D... Discard. 

In my experiences, discard is always interlaced with devaluation, and the devaluation can become more covert, as the overt devaluation is having less measurable affect on the non (because we successfully GR and noJADE).  The combination of devaluation and discard may include gaslighting, smearing, triangulation, use of flying monkeys, covert control, difficult double-binds and a wide spectrum of deeply hurtful methods to show the non they don't matter, and that the PD is still in control. 

*I will interject here that I have a personal opinion, gathered from my experiences with PD's of both genders, and my couple years here on Out of the FOG reading other's situations, that male PD's may perform extremely hurtful discard in a more overt-visible manner than female PD's, because of male's internal need to be masculine-proud to both themselves, and others.  I believe female PD's may become more intensely covert in their focused manipulation to deeply hurt the non and tell the non they don't matter, which helps support the ego of the female PD, yet protect her feminine reputation.

It has been good for me to remember that the double-bind will always exist with PD's when I have legal and responsible connections with PD's.  Additionally helpful for me to remember that some experts believe that PD's have an underdeveloped mind, therefore I am dealing with a childlike mind, in an adult body of a PD, and that PD has all the adult-rights I have (unlike minors), which is very difficult for me to work around, for my own self-protection. 

Full-circle yes, I believe you are correct that implementing the toolbox correctly is "..making it harder".  But, that realization is the feedback that you are doing GR and boundaries correctly.  Great job rockandhardplace! 

Im not certain of your end goal, but since you posted in the Separating & Divorcing board, I will assume that is your current heading.  Imo, the discard will get deeper, as the non realizes that the amplified traits he is serving up to you are having no effect.  This is a time for the non to thicken their skin, steel their backbone, tighten their seatbelts and get very creative (yet steadfast) in continued protective boundaries. In addition, because the double-binds will intensify, this is a time for the non to increase ways for themselves to create some joy, to simply help counteract the DD (devaluation and discard combined).  Its also a time to double-down and accept exactly what you wrote:

"... that I will never be able to have any kind of rational discussion with the father of my children about anything, ever." 

I Agree!  It is like trying to have rational discussions and experiences with a 3 year old child who is not getting their way.  Except this 3 year old has a job, full adult rights, full parental rights, full monetary rights, and holds the keys to their engine of adult misery they love to throttle up and run all over our lives. 

I will encourage you to press forward and accept that you have to go through this very thick mud of DD (feeling all alone as discard is designed!) in order to find drier, solid ground in the future.  Im right there alongside you.  You are NOT alone!

With regard to creative boundaries, finding joy, and your children; are there easy, quick, wholesome, cheap activities that your children would love to participate in with you, but that your husband will not participate (for whatever reason)?  Imo, frequently choose/create those specific activities and you will find some solo parent/friend time with your kids.  While on that solo time with them (even if its a different activity with each child), I recommend that it be an escape (for all) from all things related to PD behaviors and negative experiences. 

My children were very aware of the issues in the home and marital relationship and also difficulties caused by the PD parent in their own lives, and they cherished the joyful and 'normal' they experienced with me in this activity time with no discussion of negatives related to PD behaviors, but rather able to freely discuss their interests, concerns in their own lives while just having someone to listen without judgement; or even just focus on the activity and surroundings as a cherished escape for all! 

Your children will also continue get the real rockandhardplace in these interactive activities and they will surely remember and add it to the fact-pile.  Believe me, no amount of PD smear/gaslit-attempted history alteration and reputation manipulation, will ever take the place of what your kiddo's (and others) have experienced from you over the long-haul of years. These facts may also be further cemented by your children's ability to escape in your intentionally planned activities, into periods of calm, normal, joyful, and purposeful time with you. 

Their PD-parent's attempts to sway their minds differently about you will be a tough row to hoe. But, I will say that kids do love the things money can buy and kids will be kids (even adult kids  ).  PD's know this too!  So, part of DD is that the PD will be/become the supplier of 'things'.  I just let that fact (and financial consequence) float away down the muddy river and instead, provide the joyful, fun escapes that require TIME. Money cant buy meaningful time, and time is the most valuable resource and gift of all!  They will always remember the time spent, while the monetary treats will eventually wear away (although new replacements gladly accepted by children lol).

I want to encourage you to press forward and know that the increased difficulty is your accurate thermometer that you are correctly implementing the toolbox!   Again, great job!   

SoT

[notrightinthehead]

Rock, there was one lady on this board, mintstripes, who took her kid and herself to a women's shelter eventually and had to stay there for months until she was able to support herself and her child. She shared with us how hard this time was. She also shared with us a few years later how much better her life was. A success story.  I am not saying you should move to a shelter, but I want to encourage you to try an optimistic outlook of your future as well as the one you seem to have with your kids being estranged from you. 
As justified as  your perspective might be, as hopeless you might feel, you still can force yourself to envision the very best of all possible outcomes in all its aspects and colors. And then check how that makes you feel. As opposed to how the fearful prophecies make you feel.  I bet you feel stronger and more optimistic when you visualize the best of all possible outcomes. You are on your own path now, see yourself as a respected professional, earning your own keep and leading a life full of harmony and love for yourself and your kids.

[LemonLime]

Well said, SoT.   My PD is my sib, but still I took a lot away from your thoughtful post.  You are a gifted writer.  Thank you.

[SonofThunder]

Well said, SoT.   My PD is my sib, but still I took a lot away from your thoughtful post.  You are a gifted writer.  Thank you.

Thank you for your kindness LemonLime.

SoT

[square]

Rock, that kind of thing is very hard for me. I take people seriously. When they say things that bend my brain, it really does a number on me.

I knew that not all people are rational, and some are bald faced liars besides. But it took me some time to really make progress on that front. But there came a time I really wrapped my head around the idea that some people are just spouting garbage and I don't have to - heck, can't - take them seriously.

You know damn well you guys had whatever agreement about your marital employment roles. Whatever garbage he is spouting does not need to be examined.

Is he lying? Probably. This is the most likely case here. Why? Lots of reasons. To win. To control you. To make you feel bad, feel crazy, second-guess yourself.

Does he really believe it? Probably not. But if he does, that's not your problem. You don't need to change his mind. He has a right to believe whatever garbage he believes, and it's not your problem to solve, and you don't have to examine it.

But he's lying. And you can't fix it.

If you can shrug off the garbage, you will partially lighten your heavy load and recover a bit of strength.

The mathematical equation between (things he says) and (reality) doesn't exist, because they are not correlated. The correlation is (things he says) and (ways he can win). That is all his mind sees, and (reality) is not a factor. So no need for you to try to fit it into the equation.

[JustKeepTrying]

Rock - I would like to applaud you for seeing the behavior. For recognizing it as it is and looking at yourself - that is hard work and needs to be acknowledged.  It is not easy to be in this situation and your mind will create so many stories to keep the status quo.  But once you see it; you can't unsee it.  And that is scary - like Halloween movie scary - and yet you are here and you are doing what you need to keep yourself and your children safe.  That is enormous and needs to be recognized.  Go you!

Eventually, you will stop the ruminating on what he said and what he did and see that it is his choice to say and do what he does.  PDs as opposed to mental illness - they do know what they are doing - there is no medication to correct it - and when you really understand that - the separation is complete.

Don't be afraid to go to a shelter - it puts in a position where you can get help; financial/legal/mental help; looks good to the courts and most importantly, gives you respite and a break - no, it's not easy but I wish wish wish I had done it instead of trying to hide what was happening from my children.  I think it hurt them in the long run.  Be careful.  Have a plan and be ready to go at anytime.  Be safe!

[Srcyu]

He's made you feel alone and you feel the grey rock has made you invisible. The realisation that you cannot get through to him has hit you hard.

I've heard of this scenario before where the husband marries a bright, independent woman and gradually makes her dependent on him. Then he turns on her when the lack of cash becomes an issue further down the line.
He is to blame and he knows it. He is angry that his wife can't magically be a stay-at-home mother AND earning good money. He does his best to accuse you of many things to cover his own guilt.

He is at home all day now. Does that mean you could go out to work if you wanted to?

[Starboard Song]

It's like I finally get that there is no talking to him ever about anything. Nothing good can ever come of it. I literally have years of emails and texts I can read with the same blame, criticisms, deflections etc and now he's added extreme gaslighting. Or maybe I've just started to see that, probably been there all along. I'm so GR that I'm literally disappearing out of existence and that seems to help him not bother with me but I can't spend any time with my children when I'm invisible. In a way I feel more trapped than ever. Knowing that I will never be able to have any kind of rational discussion with the father of my children about anything, ever.

There comes a point in these journeys when it suddenly is true: you will be far happier in two years than you are today. That doesn't become true until your eyes open and you are able to accept the reality you are in. God it is hard. I know. This is really hard. But not knowing doesn't make it any easier.

One of the books on our Resources page is called something like "The Gift of Fear." The idea is basically that, without fear, our cave-parents wouldn't have run from the sabertooth tiger. And now, without fear, we fail to improve our condition, and fail to avoid more toxic people in our lives. Feeling trapped is the impetus for change. I am so sorry that it can't be easy. Please consider how fast you'd be out in a house fire, and consider alternatives that might speed up your escape plan. Always be ever so safe: I don't mean to rush you into a bad decision or anything. But sometimes we gold plate our exit plans a little, and it slows us down.

Ever so much good strength to you.

[rockandhardplace]

Thanks SoT, I was worried when I was wrote the post that it didn't make any sense, but you seem to get it.

This especially... "It is like trying to have rational discussions and experiences with a 3 year old child who is not getting their way.  Except this 3 year old has a job, full adult rights, full parental rights, full monetary rights, and holds the keys to their engine of adult misery they love to throttle up and run all over our lives."
This is exactly right and so hard to deal with. In my case he is also physically much bigger and stronger too which adds to the feeling of being unsafe but it's much more about the fact there is limited scope for society / laws etc to force the 3 year old to take responsibility, to look at their behaviour. I'm loving  "It's your fault" Bill Eddy's high conflict personality podcast. He is very clear that HCP"s (high conflict people) don't change and are incapable of self awareness. That's the bit I struggle with. It is like a 3 year who can't understand why they can't have icecream for dinner or why it's not okay to steal all the toys. Except even 3 year olds can gain some awareness into their behaviours. How can these PD's hold down good jobs and come across as normal people in everyday conversations but be completely, totally irrational with their target of blame??

[rockandhardplace]

Rock, that kind of thing is very hard for me. I take people seriously. When they say things that bend my brain, it really does a number on me.

This is probably what I'm struggling with the most. The lying. That ability and motivation to lie like this. With all the denials, deflections, twisting of facts over the years I am surprised that I was still shocked by the latest gaslighting. I'm the kind of person who tries to see other peoples perspectives and even when someone is shitty I will wonder what was going on in their head. Someone tries to scam me for money I feel angry but I can see the motivation, I could imagine being desperate or even just imagine someone opportunistic and lacking in empathy for strangers or whatever. But this kind of lying, this gaslighting is beyond my understanding. I'm trying to remember what I heard the other day about these kinds of people not behaving the same as most people, that they have these extreme behaviours that don't fit with what we expect people to do. So me not being able to make sense of it is a normal reaction. And probably me still being affected by the craziness of it is just a sign of how abnormal that behaviour is?

[SonofThunder]

......don't change and are incapable of self awareness. That's the bit I struggle with. It is like a 3 year who can't understand why they can't have icecream for dinner or why it's not okay to steal all the toys. Except even 3 year olds can gain some awareness into their behaviours. How can these PD's hold down good jobs and come across as normal people in everyday conversations but be completely, totally irrational with their target of blame??

Imo, this is a very interesting conversation (not going expanding beyond this next comment here on your thread) that's been talked about so much here at Out of the FOG.  PD's clearly demonstrate they are fully capable of calculated, varied, self-control in the 5 circles of relationships.  That fact and experience, helps me to buffer my own thoughts, which creep into my mind regarding 'compassion' for the PD.

Therefore yes again to your thread title:  " ...knowing about PD's is making it harder".

SoT

[JustKeepTrying]

 

In fact in regards to the above, that is why I left - the reason I made the decision and that final step Out of the FOG.  I finally understood that he knew what he was doing; it was intentional and he did not value me.  It was and is still a gut punch and just awful to face.  I am sorry that you are going through this.

We are holding space for you.  Come back often; review the boards and lean on those here that have the wisdom and experience - I appreciate that wisdom looking back at my own exit.

You go this.