Do you ever want to stop trying so hard, or wonder if it's making a difference?

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Maybe it's a common quality of "caretaker" types to knock ourselves out trying to do the right thing or make things okay.  It's been true of me all my life.  "Be there" for people in such an unusually steadfast way, work tirelessly to improve myself and try to overcome my past, therapy up the ying yang, constantly evaluating in my relationships "can I do this better, more lovingly for them and for me?"  What difference has it made in my relationships?

TBH, a lot.  But not in a few I care most about.  The PDs in my life have never changed, nor do I put any effort into trying to make that happen anymore. With them I've gone LC or NC.   

It's the ones with the fleas I'm finding hard, which includes my grown kids and a few other loved ones.  Enablers (that used to be me, too), as well as the few who do blame-shifting and projecting.  They're not totally beyond listening to reason, like the PDs.  But they're pretty entrenched. A few of them are really important to me.  I love them  But man it seems a lot of work for little return!  Maybe I've been putting too much hope where it doesn't belong.

Sometimes I want to give up on the whole trying-to-be-a-good-person-in-the-world-who-makes-a-difference thing.  Not that I don't want to be that person.  I'm just tired of trying so hard.  Maybe my intentions have been worthwhile but I've just held out too much hope and followed that with too much work.  Maybe I should back off and let someone else put in more effort if they want to have a close relationship with me?  

[notrightinthehead]

That's what I decided at the beginning of last year. Back off. Wait for others to make a move. I told myself I would give them space to show me how much contact with me they want. Turns out, most have faded out of my life. And made space for people who seemed to be interested of spending some time with me. I have met two really nice women who contact me as much as I contact them. They make themselves available for coffee. At the moment I feel more acceptable and as if I belong than I have ever felt in my life before. This might only be temporary but it makes me happy and I enjoy it while it lasts.

[NarcKiddo]

I hear you.

It seems to me that the problem with hoping for outcomes that involve other people is that they may not oblige, no matter what you do. Only you can decide how much work you want to put in and what level of reward is worth that work.

Your final sentence is certainly an approach you could try, but be prepared for the possibility that the person concerned may not put in more effort. Like notrightinthehead, I too have found that if I stop making the effort most people fade away to some extent. I now try to make peace with that likelihood before I reduce my own efforts. In the past I have set "tests" for other people and then been angry that they failed the test and didn't make the effort I hoped they would. That approach only serves to hurt me and taints the relationship if they remain in my life (which they usually don't because I have fleas myself and have tended to discard people who upset me)

[Lookin 2 B Free]

In this case, they are loved ones who have been in my life for decades and they do reach out to me, so that's not so much the problem.  It's more around feeling taken for granted, or them not valuing or considering me as much as they do others who probably demand that, whereas I don't.  Not that I'm a doormat or can't stand up to bad behavior.  I guess I've never learned to expect or ask for more when it comes to people stepping up to the plate to be there for me.

They say you teach people how to treat you.  I spent my life feeling so undeserving, it's always felt way out of line asking people to give more than they otherwise would ... though they will ask that of me and I usually oblige.  When I do ask something of people (usually bc I'm pushed to by being unable to handle it myself or pay for help),  I imagine them saying to themselves "What a drag!  I don't want to do this for her!" like I'm not worth the effort -- even though they'd gladly do 10X that much for the entitled narc.

I need to start giving myself and others the message that I am entitled to be valued and treated with acts of caring and respect just as much as anyone else, no more, no less.  So I guess I'm the one who needs to step up to the plate with this.  Then people who want a relationship with me will follow suit.  Sounds simple.  But this kind of thing is soooo uncomfortable to practice.

Wow.  Overcoming the damage done by growing up with a PD, and then marrying/partnering with a few more, is one massive undertaking!

[JustKeepTrying]

Lookin - you are certainly right - overcoming it is a massive undertaking.  And you are also right in knowing that you have value, deserve respect and care.  Show it to yourself first and others will follow.  I have been working on boundaries and knowing what mine are - and my values - and the hardest thing I have learned is that if a person keeps crossing my boundaries, then it is up to me to leave.  I can only control myself and if they don't respect me - then I have to leave.  Easy to say and hard to do.

[Pepin]

Lookin - you are certainly right - overcoming it is a massive undertaking.  And you are also right in knowing that you have value, deserve respect and care.  Show it to yourself first and others will follow.  I have been working on boundaries and knowing what mine are - and my values - and the hardest thing I have learned is that if a person keeps crossing my boundaries, then it is up to me to leave.  I can only control myself and if they don't respect me - then I have to leave.  Easy to say and hard to do.

I agree!  I started valuing myself in a way that I felt I deserved - and yeah, people just started fading away -- because they became irrelevant.  I like what I do now and who I am and wished that I had come into this persona when I was younger.  Actually, when I was younger I did use to do this....but somehow marrying into a toxic family really threw me for a loop; it was another survival game and it was so hard to do as a wife and mother.  I essentially devoted myself to my children to protect them from the periphery abuse and the rest of my energy went into my marriage.  Looking back, I did what I knew and I don't think I could have done it any other way.  Like it or not, my CN MIL was going to make a mess anyway and she did.  If there was ONE thing that I could undo to change the trajectory of our lives it would be staying where we were and not moving to where we live now.  Biggest regret ever.  That distance from one state to another could have kept us out of harms way...*sigh* all in the past now.  The PDs are mostly gone with CN MIL's passing.....just some fleas in the husband.  With our without him, I am going to continue going forward being ME - because that is what I had to do to get to this point.  ME.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

This is all very encouraging what you've written.  I've been working on boundaries for years and I'm mostly happy where I'm at, though my own caretaker instincts need to be kept in check.

What if you find loved ones respecting boundaries but still taking your needs/preferences into consideration last in the group?  It hits the old "I don't matter" nerve.  Others are tended to first and with whatever's leftover, I'm invited to partake.  I imagine part of it is because I've always been so flexible and never complain about it.  Most people are much more forthcoming and insistent about what they want than I am. 

I'm thinking maybe I need address this with one or more flea-carriers and let them know I'd appreciate the same consideration as others.  And maybe that it bothers me or feels bad when this is consistently not the case.

They're still free to do whatever they want.  But if I've informed them I'm no longer a person who doesn't care about this  (like I was when my self esteem was in the toilet - a part I'll leave out), I believe it will change things.  If not for them, for me.  If they still choose to disregard me, I'll probably make some other choices myself. 

Does anyone relate?

[Call Me Cordelia]

I do relate. However, for myself I've uncovered a bit of a catch-22. I want people to take my wants into consideration, they express willingness to do that, ask me what I would like, and then... I HAVE NO IDEA.

[NarcKiddo]

I do relate. However, for myself I've uncovered a bit of a catch-22. I want people to take my wants into consideration, they express willingness to do that, ask me what I would like, and then... I HAVE NO IDEA.

Same! Part of my problem is that I have been a people-pleaser for my whole life so I have no idea what I want or even need. I can identify what I don't like but generally have no idea what should replace it. The other part is that whenever I expressed a desire my mother (who hated saying an outright "no") would at best go along with it with very bad grace and spoil it or at worst would viciously attack me if she felt forced to say "no" and make out my request was utterly awful and unreasonable. Now, if I express a desire, say, to go somewhere and my husband happily agrees, if we then encounter a traffic jam and he gets angry about the jam I get very upset because if I had not asked to go to this place we would not have been in the jam and the whole thing becomes my fault (to me, not to him).

Lookin - your suggestion about making your thoughts and feelings known makes total sense, and as you say they are still free to disregard you, which would inform what you do next. I can logically totally relate to that. Emotionally I am nowhere near.

[treesgrowslowly]

I think that as we grow and heal, we may want new things out of our existing relationships with people. This isn't a bad thing, but it can be tricky to navigate.

What worked for me and that person 4 years ago, no longer works for me - but that person doesn't want to hear it. It feels crummy to deal with that sort of thing.

I can relate - you'd like to feel appreciated by them more often.

Some people have us slotted in to their lives and they won't want to change that. If we are the person they go to church with, but no other meet ups with us, they might be very happy with that arrangement. They don't want that arrangement to change. (as an example).

I also found that my desire to feel appreciated got stronger the more I have healed. You've nurtured the friendship with them, and now you wish they would do the same. I see it as "waking up" to how unappreciative people can be, even when we do a lot for them. Doing more for those people, doesn't tend to 'stir' their inner desire to show appreciation. Like you said, with the fleas that they have they may not be showing you appreciation, and you are now tired of this lack of appreciation.

Now that I think about it, the people I know with fleas, are not very good at showing appreciation.


Saying "I would really enjoy doing x with you more often" will give them an opportunity to be the one to water the friendship. You've done a lot of watering and gardening of these relationships /  friendships from the sounds of it.

Feeling unappreciated by adult children can be upsetting, and I can see how it triggers our stuff from growing up with PD parents.

Trees

[Lookin 2 B Free]

This is kind of exciting for me.  It feels like such fertile ground for growth!

One of the flea-carriers I'm talking about has pretty pronounced narc characteristics and one is a total enabler of the first one.  In the past year, I've communicated in a kind, non-blaming but assertive manner a few times around things that absolutely called for that, (according not only to me, but my T and a few trusted recovery friends). 

Since then, the narc-like one is not quite as friendly as in years past. (Surprise, surprise)  I don't think the enabler has a problem with me, but will do whatever the narc says to.  So I'm being treated differently now, like a slow mo devaluation.  Sort of like "We don't have time or room for you in the main section anymore, so we're making a space for you in the back seats."  I'm being moved out of my slotted position, as you called it, Trees, and getting demoted.  And that's what I'm considering addressing.  They have the right to make whatever decisions they want.  But I have the right to express my feelings about it and then make my own decisions.

One thing I've asked myself while doing this work these many years is "What would a normal person do ... meaning a non PD with self worth who's not afraid to stand up for themselves?"  I notice these people and their actions, so I feel I have a sense for that.  They say something.  They let the people know they don't like being elbowed out.  It's only my shame and old tapes ("No one wants to be with you  and you shouldn't make them") that keep me from speaking up. 

The old recovery saying  "Take the action and the feelings will follow" has worked for me before.  Do what a person with self worth does and I will feel more self worth.  First I'm writing the letters to people that never get sent, bc that helps bring clarity about what I really do want to say.  I don't think it will be long after that I'll get the opportunity to try it out. 

And, hey, if I overstep or make a mistake, that's okay.  I can make amends if I need to.  People who value themselves make space for mistakes without going into a shame spiral.  Right now, I just need some practice.  And I feel I'm getting ready to have the courage to do that.   I so appreciate all of you here who share this journey with me.

Free

[treesgrowslowly]

Lookin 2 B free,

It is exciting to see our growth - and feel it!!

Crappy Childhood Fairy has a video "Can you keep old friends in your life after you heal?" and she makes some great points about what you're also noticing in your friend circles. It came up on my feed recently and so I thought I'd share that. She talks about how we can keep people from our past in our lives, even if we've grown quite a bit compared to when we met them.

Trees

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Thanks, Trees!  I've heard of the CC Fairy but never listened to her before.  She's great!  I'll come back to her some more.   

I also listened to "CPTSD: Should You Visit Your Family?"  and  "How do I make people stop triggering me?"  I love what she has to say!

[hhaw]

Such a timely thread!  Thanks for all these great posts, guys!

[SonofThunder]

Ive not read all the posts on this thread yet, so my next comments may have been stated prior. If so, consider it "ditto".  I agree with many commenters about taking care of my own needs more, and allowing others to decide their own adult level of action/reaction toward me.  In addition, always the 51% rule and boundaries is my go-to. 

But recently, I have begun proactively putting myself under the microscope and will continue to do so in mindfulness and a desire for improvement, learning and unlearning. I bring a lot to the table because of my decades with PD's, and in addition, my own nature/nurture traits.  In doing that deeper self-dive, I believe that I have also contributed, in ways, to my hardships; caretaking behaviors, reactive-listening vs active listening, unrecognized introversion and others. 

Therefore I have also, in mindfulness, needed to rise up out of my non-PD relationships and ask myself:  "SoT..is what you expect from others a balanced outlook?"  My answers are in many cases.."no".  My own traits tend to breed unrealistic expectations on others and I need to better-accept that I am myself and others are themselves.  I simply cannot hold others to my own high standards/habits.  But... I can use my habits to provide high standards for myself and enjoy the self service (at nobody else's expense), and mentally let all my other non-PD adults just be themselves. 

Time will expose the true characteristics of my nonPD family, friends and acquaintances, and my mentally dropping expectations on others seems to bring a bit of fresh-air-freedom to our relationships.  I make a mental note of my needs that may be over-the-top and I just provide them for myself (introversion assists here so yay!).  If others decide for themselves that they would enjoy providing, I quickly say "yes", which allows me to experience their self-initiated love and care for me, but also allows them to experience the joys of their love and care, they freely chose to provide to me.  A win-win.

I want to be done with expectations, except on myself and those contracted to provide (employees, suppliers, contractors, doctors etc).  PD's are full-on toolbox from me with zero expectations other than knowing through experience, that they will always choose from the variety of traits that feed "self", at my expense.

SoT

[Jolie40]

Sometimes I want to give up on the whole trying-to-be-a-good-person-in-the-world-who-makes-a-difference thing. 

I feel like I've been there, done that. i.e. husband & I did volunteer work together & I did volunteer work at several places. Helped a sibling when she was pregnant & we babysit for her child many hours. I babysat for a friend when she did her student teaching. Husband helped his family & mine with repairs/projects.

Once I became a parent & sahm, I was totally devoted to my child so I no longer volunteered or went out of my way to help others. I needed ALL my energy for being a parent.

I started to say "no" to people & it felt good to stand up for myself!

[Pepin]

It's the ones with the fleas I'm finding hard, which includes my grown kids and a few other loved ones.  Enablers (that used to be me, too), as well as the few who do blame-shifting and projecting.  They're not totally beyond listening to reason, like the PDs.  But they're pretty entrenched. A few of them are really important to me.  I love them  But man it seems a lot of work for little return!  Maybe I've been putting too much hope where it doesn't belong.

For some reason this has been on my mind lately.  Like you, I also used to be an enabler until I had my a-ha moment.  I could never unsee what I saw after that.  There were a few people that saw the dysfunction of CN MIL before me who I believe tried to gently point it out and I made up excuses and largely ignored it.  I was embarrassed of course and enabling the dysfunctional dynamic. 

Since I ceased being an enabler, it has irritated the stuffings out of me that other enablers struggle to see the dysfunction that I saw.  And I guess it is because of their assigned role?  There is clearly a hierarchy around PDs.  The enablers closer to the PD are the most difficult to reach.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Pepin, I like your comment about enabler hierarchy.  So true!  It kind of spans the gambit of a-little-too-tolerant-for-anyone's-good to full on savior-of-the-PD.  I was the latter.  How many years with how many PD's it took to get where I am now!

Before the end, though, with my ex  (unlike FOO),  I had been seeing what was going on.   I'd been clued in about PD's.  It just took *forever* to get it that our case wasn't different from the rest of them ... that I wasn't going to someday get him to see the light and motivate him to get the intensive help he needed ... that he couldn't be loved and cajoled into health.

I sometimes wonder, with one of the enabler loved ones who acts just like I used to, if they see through it but don't let on to anybody, the way I used to.  I won't be asking, though!  I stay mum unless someone specifically asks my opinion, which doesn't happen.  And if it did I would tread lightly.  I think "attraction, not promotion" is the best policy.

This is something I really appreciated about the CC Fairy videos you recommended, Trees.  Much to your point, SoT, she makes clear that recovery is not about demanding anything from, or "enlightening,"  anyone.  The changes to be made are ours.  In my mind, that does not preclude letting someone know when something ongoing really bothers me and is getting in the way of our relationship so they have the chance to take that into consideration if they want to.  I want that kind of honesty from people in my important relationships.  Ultimately, though, I respect that their decisions are theirs, just as mine are mine.           

Free