No one ever really liked my mother.

[easterncappy]

When I read posts like "my parent was so charming that everyone loved them and had no idea what was going on at home", I can't relate. I get that everyone's experience is different, but surely, someone else on here has N's who are just overall unlikeable.

No one liked either of my parents. I don't think anyone suspected that they were abusers, but at best, they were seen as very odd and eccentric people. People pitied them a lot. I saw a handful of well-meaning people try to be friends with them, but ultimately give up because they were so off-putting.

Neither of them had any social skills. They'd frequently violate all of the unspoken rules of social interaction. They got upset if I pointed out that their behavior was making people uncomfortable or that it came off as rude. They'd get angry when their new friends quickly disappeared after realizing that my parents are incredibly unpleasant to be around. It was always the other person's fault, never theirs.

Eventually, friendship became a thing for stupid people, smart people didn't have friends, and we were all super intelligent introverts. This became the family identity. At least this is how my mom coped with pushing everyone away constantly. Easier than admitting that she wasn't very nice to to be around.

So they were most certainly not "charming people who had everyone fooled".

[NarcKiddo]

I wonder whether yours have something else in the mix as well as being Ns? I at first thought only my mother was the N and she is typically grandiose. I now realise my father is also a N but he is very different to my mother. What they both have in common, however, is generally being thought utterly wonderful by outsiders, at least initially. The only person (that I know of) who saw through my mother on first meeting was my late father in law. But he was married to one, so I guess he had inside knowledge.

My maternal grandmother, on the other hand, was able to switch on the charm to further her own ends but she did not need to be thought charming for her own sense of self-worth. She certainly did not bother being charming if it did not suit her. I think she was probably a fully-fledged psychopath.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I have a similar experience, EC. To say my parents wouldn't have won any popularity contests is an understatement, for sure. Our family was always considered odd. I don't think they were so bad as to be regularly flagrantly rude, but certainly they were lacking in social skills and awareness. I heard in later years from some of they would call friends that they "never understood them."

As a young and precocious child I was directly told by my father that I was better because I was smarter than all the other kids, and I should just get used to being hated my whole life by the jealous inferiors. That's a hard one to grow past for me. I'm sorry you have to overcome similar.

[Andeza]

Oh yeah. uBPDm is what I call "low functioning." She fools plenty of people with the woe is me I'm so sick stuff, but after a while people get tired of hearing it all the time. The family puts up with it "because family!" but she's pretty much lost all her friends at this point. I think they only bother sending Christmas cards these days. If that.

She hasn't had any proper friends for as long as I could remember. The thing is she charms people at first. They think she's so nice and she's just going through a hard time right now and needs some support and kindness, but if they hang around for longer than a single meeting, they realize it's not a momentary hard time. It's a lifetime of supposed medical issues that are treatable in most people and seemingly not in her. And she's not visibly doing anything to better her situation beyond going to the doctor now and then and trying different pills. And if you suggest anything you get the "Oh! Yes I tried that for a while and it helped, but when I stopped everything went right back to the way it was." Think about that a second.

[easterncappy]

I wonder whether yours have something else in the mix as well as being Ns? I at first thought only my mother was the N and she is typically grandiose. I now realise my father is also a N but he is very different to my mother. What they both have in common, however, is generally being thought utterly wonderful by outsiders, at least initially. The only person (that I know of) who saw through my mother on first meeting was my late father in law. But he was married to one, so I guess he had inside knowledge.

My maternal grandmother, on the other hand, was able to switch on the charm to further her own ends but she did not need to be thought charming for her own sense of self-worth. She certainly did not bother being charming if it did not suit her. I think she was probably a fully-fledged psychopath.

I have suspected that possibly my mom is on the spectrum. When I brought it up to her, she briefly entertained the idea, and then dismissed it as crazy modern Westerner talk trying to pathologize normal people for no reason. Can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

My other theory is that both of them were so severely abused and isolated from normal people while growing up, that they never developed appropriate social skills. They did both have terrible childhoods, even worse than mine, not that it excuses anything that they've done to me. My mom never had any friends growing up because everyone avoided their family like the plague (for good reason - my grandma was as unpleasant as my mom, my grandpa was known as a cheating violent drunkard in their small village). My dad had no guidance from his parents, just very brutal beatings, so he was a feral child. Both of them genuinely seem to have no clue how normal family relationships or friendships are supposed to work.

They certainly have the N desire to charm. The will is there. They don't understand why it doesn't work. They try to impress people in all of the wrong ways. There's this half-paranoia half-excitement about making people "jealous". But it's often things that no one really cares about, or finds flat-out odd. Like the time my mom insisted that she was being treated poorly by a wealthy client because they were "jealous" that I bought a used car - in reality, that woman was often put-off by my mom's socially awkward behavior, and I could tell. No idea why a woman much wealthier than us would even care that I bought a used car, anyway.

I think that the difference between our moms in this regard is that yours was just socially skilled enough to make it work. I assume she had enough exposure to how normal people operate while she grew up that she was able to imitate the things she thought they'd like, and it worked for her.

[easterncappy]

I have a similar experience, EC. To say my parents wouldn't have won any popularity contests is an understatement, for sure. Our family was always considered odd. I don't think they were so bad as to be regularly flagrantly rude, but certainly they were lacking in social skills and awareness. I heard in later years from some of they would call friends that they "never understood them."

As a young and precocious child I was directly told by my father that I was better because I was smarter than all the other kids, and I should just get used to being hated my whole life by the jealous inferiors. That's a hard one to grow past for me. I'm sorry you have to overcome similar.

Oh, that last part hits close to home. My mom could never quite grasp the idea that maybe, just maybe, she is to be held accountable for some of the bad situations in her life. No, everyone was jealous, slandering her for no reason, and she was better than all of them... again, can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. She was smart, she was hot, she was beautiful, she spoke better than everyone else. That's why they hated her.

One time she took me to someone's house to ask them for help with something inappropriate (I was too young and in the FOG to say no) - a legal issue that was way above this woman's pay grade, and not appropriate to discuss with a family friend. She didn't understand why or how this was inappropriate. When the woman awkwardly tried to explain that she isn't willing to help, my mom thought she was a horrible person. Genuinely no grasp of the fact that there are boundaries and rules in social interactions and things you can reasonably expect from a friend. In my mom's strange brain, this only happened because the woman was evil and hated us and resented us and wanted us to be her personal slaves (my dad did a little bit of paid work for her at one point).

[easterncappy]

Oh yeah. uBPDm is what I call "low functioning." She fools plenty of people with the woe is me I'm so sick stuff, but after a while people get tired of hearing it all the time. The family puts up with it "because family!" but she's pretty much lost all her friends at this point. I think they only bother sending Christmas cards these days. If that.

She hasn't had any proper friends for as long as I could remember. The thing is she charms people at first. They think she's so nice and she's just going through a hard time right now and needs some support and kindness, but if they hang around for longer than a single meeting, they realize it's not a momentary hard time. It's a lifetime of supposed medical issues that are treatable in most people and seemingly not in her. And she's not visibly doing anything to better her situation beyond going to the doctor now and then and trying different pills. And if you suggest anything you get the "Oh! Yes I tried that for a while and it helped, but when I stopped everything went right back to the way it was." Think about that a second.

Low functioning is a good way to put it. I don't think my parents have a low IQ or intellectual disability, but their extreme emotional immaturity and complete disconnect from how relationships work makes them low functioning.

My mom would also charm people with "woe is me". My dad, too. The interactions were cringey to witness. Somehow, I had the social awareness from a young age to think "these people feel guilty and are speaking to you out of pity". Eventually, a lot of these people realized that most of my parents' problems that they used to play the "woe is me" card were self-inflicted, like their supposed "financial problems" while splurging on things normal people don't buy if money is tight. No one wants to hang out with someone who is always complaining, always negative.

They are both such negative people. The only friend I remember my mom having is a woman as bad as she is. I don't know if they even talk anymore, even her friendships with other PD's were short lived, and I don't talk to her either. I saw a huge improvement in my mental health and my tendency to jump to bad conclusions and have negative thoughts when we stopped talking. She can really suck all of the positive energy out of a room. I don't remember many conversations with her where she could stay positive for more than a couple of seconds. It's not exactly a mystery why no one stuck around long after meeting her, except for my dad, who has similar tendencies.

[moglow]

She hasn't had any proper friends for as long as I could remember. The thing is she charms people at first. They think she's so nice and she's just going through a hard time right now and needs some support and kindness, but if they hang around for longer than a single meeting, they realize it's not a momentary hard time. It's a lifetime of supposed medical issues that are treatable in most people and seemingly not in her. And she's not visibly doing anything to better her situation beyond going to the doctor now and then and trying different pills. And if you suggest anything you get the "Oh! Yes I tried that for a while and it helped, but when I stopped everything went right back to the way it was." Think about that a second. (https://outofthefog.net/forum/Smileys/default/doh.gif)

This is closest to mine - mother can be superficially charming, but just underneath that supposed charm is an unmistakeable edge. People don't tend to stick around for long. Once she gets comfortable with you, the claws come out. She has a way of finding someone's weak spots and will hone in on them to her advantage every time. Then the complaints and snide comments start - never to your face but to everyone else she talks to.

That sucking all the positive energy out of a room? That's mommie dearest to a T. She could find the darkest side of a day quicker than anyone I've ever known, seemed to resent attempts to look at the bright side, laugh or just find joy in simple things. She's all about doom gloom and misery - nobody wants to be around that 24/7.

[easterncappy]

That sucking all the positive energy out of a room? That's mommie dearest to a T. She could find the darkest side of a day quicker than anyone I've ever known, seemed to resent attempts to look at the bright side, laugh or just find joy in simple things. She's all about doom gloom and misery - nobody wants to be around that 24/7.

If I ever tried to be optimistic around my mom, she looked at me with what I could describe as "extremely angry toddler throwing a tantrum" eyes, except not cute and innocent like when toddlers do it, and she'd make some sarcastic remark about how what I'm saying is a load of crap. She'd do this to her friends, too. There were a lot of times I felt like she was fishing for more attention and even grander attempts at getting me to "help" her, beyond what I've already done, and she was completely stumped the first time I told her "hmm, that sucks, I can't really help talk you out of this though". It seemed like negativity was her way of keeping a conversation going and constantly escalating it and making it fun and dramatic and exciting.

And people got tired of it. Understandably.

[Cat of the Canals]

I've been "lucky" enough (haha) to see both sides of this. My own mother is a charming, socially adept BPD Queen. She has pretty much everyone snowed. (One of the main things that led me Out of the FOG was constantly hearing, "Your mom loves you SO MUCH. It means SO MUCH to her when you call and visit..." The implication being that she's the GOAT mom, and I am somehow deficient/disappointing/not living up to all that wonderfulness.  )

My BPD hermit MIL is quite the opposite. I think most people can tell within minutes of meeting her that she's, at best, an "odd duck." She doesn't really have friends, which isn't surprising because she is pushy, rude, and inappropriate with everyone. You know when you're at the bank or the store, and you overhear the person in front of you telling the clerk/cashier majorly TMI things about their life? That's my MIL. She is convinced that everyone is judging her constantly (major projection since she judges everyone and everything), which makes her bitter, insecure, and paranoid. The notion that her behavior has consequences is not something she seems to understand. She is openly hostile to people -- will even brag about it -- and then acts surprised and offended when they want nothing to do with her. The fact that she's managed to marry three times is a bit shocking, considering all of this, but none of her husbands have been what anyone would call "a prize." And there's frankly no telling how many times she struck out with men who thought, "not with a ten-foot pole."