Improving My Communication Skills

[SonofThunder]

I am currently on a self-improvement mission in the quest for peace in my life. One of the areas which I realized was so negatively affected by multiple decades with both a uNPDf and uPDw was verbal communication skills, which highly includes active-listening in healthy methods. 

When dealing with PD's while I was in the FOG, I was not aware of their motives to (-)take from me, in order to (+)feed their self-needs, in that predator manner in which PD's operate.  In the FOG, that result was verbal communication toward me, which is manipulative, baiting, IDD cycle and drama-triangle 🔺driven, causing my verbal communication to be that of a caretaker to minimize conflict and return to idealization, where peace resided. When I became educated, aware, not in a cloud of fog confusion, and determined to create my own peace through the toolbox, the verbal communication and listening became entirely difficult (and opposite) in so many ways, due to the self-protective, required nature of my mind listening, analyzing and implementing the toolbox tools, all during an active conversation.  Exhausting! 

Imo, both extremes (caretaking and toolbox'ing) are not normal, healthy verbal communication and active listening. Therefore after decades of constant, unhealthy communication (contrasted by my currently living alone), my unhealthy verbal communication habits have become increasingly visible in my life. 

I have been journaling about my struggle with healthy active listening and verbal communication for a couple months, and also reading a book about active listening.  I find active listening to be an extremely difficult practice, because of my deeply engrained habit of having to steadily sift through my toolbox while the PD is spewing their IDD+🔺verbal motive salad, so that I am guarding myself with whatever tool necessary, in proper self-protection, or simply to minimize any damage and move forward. 

Sadly, that listening and self-protective verbal habit necessary with PD's has been carried forward into improper listening and communication with non-PD's, and I'm just not engaged in healthy communication. 

What is so interesting to me, now that I have been focusing on improvement in this area, is that I am able to see improvement in my verbal and listening skills with non's, but not with the PD's. That also causes me to now carry two different listening and verbal styles, which is incredibly difficult, because PD's have a motive of catching their targets off-guard.

I refuse to stay toolbox hyper-vigilant all the time, now that I live alone, and am purposefully finding peace, time for mindfulness and time for rest. But it surely creates a noticeably (and difficult imo) distinct set of differences. 

With non's, practicing active-listening is for engagement, empathy, friendship and other good communication. The contrast between the two is stark, yet I still have (necessary) communication over complex asset issues with my stbxw, as I move proactively forward in my quest for peace. 

My post here is simply to bring up the fact finding that is occurring in my quest to improve in my verbal communication skills, which requires active listening.  But to also point out how both of those can be severely hobbled by a PD.  I was not aware how severe until the contrast appeared. 

I have attempted on recent occasion, for the fun of my research, to try and active-listen in good ways (like im practicing with non's) to my PD's but it is impossibly short-lived, as I'm almost immediately, mentally rooting through my toolbox once again.

Just another way that PD's wreak havoc in our lives, and how those necessary habits of toolbox-listening vs engaged-active-listening and verbal responses are so very handicapped.  Just another thing I look forward to improving in my life, as I move forward in my quest for peaceful living. 

SoT

[bloomie]

SonofThunder - this is such a worthy and self aware quest! You describe so well the tension that comes from the erosion of our skills for healthy communication in our everyday lives when we have survived for a long time by using the toolset needed for unhealthy communication with those who are highly manipulative and not trustworthy.

I can really relate to having developed a general posture of hypervigilence out of all of the years of in close proximity to someone whose communication is unreliable, strategic, and self serving that, in my own life, becomes necessary to be able to recognize manipulative communication in order to use the tools we have gathered to ourselves.

At times, that has permeated interactions where it was not warranted leading me to overreact (on the inside mostly) and over scrutinize.

What is so interesting to me, now that I have been focusing on improvement in this area, is that I am able to see improvement in my verbal and listening skills with non's, but not with the PD's. That also causes me to now carry two different listening and verbal styles, which is incredibly difficult, because PD's have a motive of catching their targets off-guard.

Yes!! So often the motive is catching targets off guard! Well said. We talk a lot about equipping ourselves and even anticipating verbal back and forth to have a kind of narrative or script when face to face with a wily person who does not have our best interest at heart. I don't say that is wrong, but I have found that the disordered communicators I know are usually 5 steps ahead of me and usually catch me off guard by coming in at an entirely unpredictable angle.

It has served me best to be grounded and rooted in a starting gate position of civility toward everyone, self control, wisdom in being slow to speak, quick to step away, and carry a bigger picture truth (my own) that there are certain people who have proven themselves untruthworthy, who refuse to take responsibility for their harmful words and deeds that I do not have verbal interactions with if at all possible as they are unsafe.

Simplistic, I know, but it has allowed me to have structure to work within when those exceptions come and I am faced with someone outside of the normal give and take in how they communicate that doesn't create tension within me. To see a manipulation and continue to be 'me' in the exchange, but a fortified, emotionally mature and stable, empowered version of me that I continue to work toward being.

And I have begun to have grace for myself in the journey. Most of the time. That's also a work in progress!

SOT, I don't know what your face to face communication is like and I admire you greatly for continuing to grow and heal as you rediscover yourself, but I will say your communication here is truly beautiful and caring and I sure appreciate all you offer all of us here in the community.

Looking forward to hearing more of the conversation around this that I am sure will come.

[Starboard Song]

I think our crisis, research, and NC were a PhD level crash course in interpersonal skills generally. They have made me a kinder, more empathetic person, and I am better able than ever before to de-escalate with difficult people.

I admire both your self-awareness and your desire for self improvement.

[SonofThunder]

Bloomie:

I can really relate to having developed a general posture of hypervigilence out of all of the years of in close proximity to someone whose communication is unreliable, strategic, and self serving that, in my own life, becomes necessary to be able to recognize manipulative communication in order to use the tools we have gathered to ourselves.

At times, that has permeated interactions where it was not warranted leading me to overreact (on the inside mostly) and over scrutinize.

Bloomie:

It has served me best to be grounded and rooted in a starting gate position of civility toward everyone, self control, wisdom in being slow to speak, quick to step away, and carry a bigger picture truth (my own) that there are certain people who have proven themselves untruthworthy, who refuse to take responsibility for their harmful words and deeds that I do not have verbal interactions with if at all possible as they are unsafe

Simplistic, I know, but it has allowed me to have structure to work within when those exceptions come and I am faced with someone outside of the normal give and take in how they communicate that doesn't create tension within me. To see a manipulation and continue to be 'me' in the exchange, but a fortified, emotionally mature and stable, empowered version of me that I continue to work toward being.

And I have begun to have grace for myself in the journey. Most of the time. That's also a work in progress!

Starboard:

I think our crisis, research, and NC were a PhD level crash course in interpersonal skills generally.

Thank you both for the kind words.

Bloomie,

Fully agree on the communication framework. I carry a small communication skills reminder in my pocket, in which I put in a hand and fidget with, when I engage someone in active listening & communication, to assist my brain in the multi-tasking of focusing on the framework but being actively engaged.

I also use similar fidget devices while practicing the toolbox skills in mental replays of difficult encounters with my stbx and then when confronted again, the device in hand helps me to remember my practice and to stay focused on the tools.  It works for me.  Cant speak for anyone else, but it greatly helps me stay on target better than without the reminder device.   

Its so interesting how the good communication framework is somewhat doable when speaking (phone or face to face) with non-confrontational people, but is very difficult to follow with confrontational people and cunning PD's.  With non's its like juggling 3 tennis balls; it takes that steady focus, but success is capable. With PD's its like the same 3 tennis balls, but the PD is tossing flaming knives and a bowling ball into the mix.  Nearly impossible for me to stay in any type of normalized structure of active-listening, engaged response and so on, as they scramble the whole process with their traits. 

Again, being away from my stbx has greatly made me aware of the contrast, as my emotional state has calmed down a bit with the much-increased peace.  Yes, after-grace is necessary as a gift to myself, in the mindfulness practices of accepting the mix of failure and successes in practice, and letting failures teach, but float on down the river.  I actually celebrate successes, let them teach as well, and then release.  That is difficult but getting better, which is the goal. 

Writing is much different, as I have time to really construct what I desire to say.  Face to face proactive active-listening, validating the speaker and responding with a question or engaged comment, is like sight-reading sheet music in front of a live audience haha.  The more I practice the new skills, the better I will become. 

Starboard,

100% agree on the crash course. Unfortunate surely, and not sure where my skills would be if my past was not decades of PD's, but certainly can take the negatives and somehow make them work for good in my life. 

Thanks for the feedback. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

I must continue having necessary discussions with my stbx over a few shared assets (business/real-estate) that must function normally during my separation to divorce 

One of the very interesting things is that a pattern of opposites is developing in my journal regarding my proactive improvement of my communication skills; the desired active listening and engaged speaking, where I validate the speaker, and then ask questions or make engaged comments (the narrative/script, as Bloomie described).  The healthy kind, where the other person also (possibly) does the same, in the back and forth, friendship conversations.  Business conversations are structured a bit different, as there are objectives trying to be reached, whether individually or as a team. 

With non's in my personal and business life, I am seeing improvement in my ability to stay on course to the narrative framework.  When the conversation ends, i feel empowered, and believe the other person experienced truly being heard and understood; validated in their opinion and engaged by me in empathetic and/or sympathetic friendship.  With business contacts, we make good forward progress; a win-win.

But, with my stbx and uNPDf, the entire narrative framework quickly falls to pieces, as the toolbox must be deployed to handle the incoming flaming knives of invalidation, accusation, manipulation and victimization.  The toolbox is fantastic self protection, but is terrible for engaged conversation.  In a way, engaged conversation cannot even begin with a PD, but in addition, the toolbox just makes it worse, although necessary.

Lastly, i find that I will occasionally repeat myself with PD's. I will sometimes actually ask for validation of what I stated. Something as simple as the question "ok?" after I have stated a fact or opinion in a necessary conversation about a shared asset. In a way, my doing so is a reverse JADE, as I am the one asking the PD whether they heard and/or understand what I said, and this is an open door for more "invalidation, accusation, manipulation and victimization".  I do not feel heard or understood and it feels like im talking to a brick wall. I believe it is a designed yet natural part of the PD's twisted tools to manipulate and control; a gaslight in a way of having me believe I am unheard and don't matter.  In the brick-walling they bait me to JADE for a simple confirmation of what was spoken, by their purposeful INACTIVE listening. Very cunning.

I don't typically do this repeating or need for validation with non's, but in my habitual errors, imo caused by decades with these difficult people, i catch myself talking to non's in the same manner that I do with my PD's.  I have a framework, but its turning out to be two separate frameworks i carry.  A lightweight and positive kit for non's and then my heavy toolbox full of the crap I need to deal with the issues of the PD.  Im learning and practicing my positive framework with my PD's and proactively not repeating a phrase or reverse-JADEing by asking for confirmation of what was stated.  Im just sitting in that awkward MC and waiting for a response, which is greatly amplified, now that I live away from my stbx.

After most conversations with PD's I do not experience the same empowered feelings of a mutually healthy, productive communication time, but rather a worn-out, ragged feeling of a narrative framework that's been through a bad storm and now needs some quiet-time of necessary repairs. 

Again very interesting observations at this time.

SoT

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi SoT,

I can appreciate what you are exploring here. If I am understanding correctly, you are frustrated that you are hauling out the toolbox while in conversations with PDs.

I think you are highlighting one of the key ways that PD contact affects our nervous systems. After all of the work that Bessel Van Der Kolk and others did a while back around trauma healing, there's this saying about how "we are wired for connection, but trauma re-wires us for protection". If you google this phrase, a lot of images have been drawn up to illustrate the point.

In my mind, conversations with PDs are never going to be about connection. What is there to connect with? Their endless narcissistic need for supply? Their endless focus on the negative? Their endless ceaseless lack of self or moral integrity? I am not sure what I would 'connect' with. Therefore, my walls are up, my toolbox has to come out, and if I have to engage with a PD, I am in self-protection mode - so as not to catch the contagion while I'm dealing with them.

Every narcissist I have ever engaged with has tried to get their negativity out into the air, and onto me. It's like someone who has a cold, and for some reason, insists on giving as much of their viral load to those around them. This is a harsh view of PDs, but this is my interpretation of my life experience with them.

Once we recover adequately so that we realize we are engaging with non's in good, healthy ways, I think that is the key! And you feel you are doing that. I suspect you are noting something that is very valuable for those of us who travel life on 'recovery road'.

As you wrote "engaged conversation cannot even begin with a PD". Yep. I come from 2 disordered parents with untreated PDs and mental health issues. There is no engaged conversation. I conversed with them for decades, starting at age 2, until I went NC.

Here is how many engaged conversations I had with either of them: zero.

There was no 'there' there. There was never a concern for my well-being. I have come to believe this is an essential ingredient to an engaged conversation. A non-disordered stranger at the check-out counter at a store is capable of an engaged conversation with me - my PD parents are not. I was left emotionally battered by narcissists and their "conversations" with me.

They were never stakeholders in my well-being. Even a conversation about the weather quickly became about how I am a bad person...That's the land of the NPD's. They had no interest in making sure the conversation stayed healthy.

Trees

[SonofThunder]

Hi Trees,

Thank you for your caring reply and for sharing your input into the conversation, as well as your experiences and background.  I am familiar with the author and read the book 'The Body Keeps the Score'.  Wonderful complex book and I agree. 

You quoted the phrase "we are wired for connection, but trauma re-wires us for protection".  Agree. In a recent chapter of a different book I'm reading, the author discusses the concept/term of: (from Wiki)

Transference:

"A phenomenon within psychotherapy in which the "feelings, attitudes, or desires" a person had about one thing are subconsciously projected onto the here-and-now other(thing). Traditionally, it had solely concerned feelings from a primary relationship during childhood."

An interesting consideration I have had for some time, regarding communication with my wife, was the affect that my growing up in the home with a uNPDf and flying-monkey/enabler mother, had on my ability to communicate well (not) with my uPDw.

The complexity is also that she was raised in a dysfunctional family as well.  Setting aside my understanding of love-bombing, the IDD cycle and the drama triangle 🔺 behaviors of PD's and their targets, this potential of 'transference' and also (from your quote) 're-wiring' from trauma childhoods is an interesting consideration that compounds difficulties in having quality, active-listening and engaged communication, not only with PD's, but potentially others, as the mind is on high-alert and very vulnerable to misunderstanding and overreacting. 

The traits of a PD, even with an emotionally healthy target, make quality communication near impossible, but again, add trauma backgrounds and transference to the non, and its an exceptionally steep downhill run. 

Therefore, now that I am living solo, it is an interesting continued journey of dissecting the ingredients that were in both myself and the PD's in my life.  I surely brought my childhood emotional traumas to my marriage and therefore I am a contributor to the dysfunction.  Yet I believe that even if I had a different childhood, that marriage to a uPD would be extremely difficult, and the result the very same. 

Again, thank you for your input, as I discuss my purposeful, mindfulness 'birds-eye' approach in analyzing my communication habits and experiences with both non's and PD's.

SoT

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi SoT,

I appreciate your postings and writings as you reflect on the work you're doing with your self.

The latest folks I'm learning from (Patrick Teahan, Jerry Wise, Josh Connolly), they make the distinction between our childhood and our adulthood selves. As children we couldn't possibly understand NPD and trauma, since those are complicated abstracted concepts. We certainly felt and experienced a whole lot as children - but our own intellectual understanding would have been limited.

As adults we can now more fully comprehend what it is that is going on. Like the concept of transference that you quoted. As children we felt the emotional impact of such things, but had no insight into the how and why of it all.

So a belief I held as a child was that my healthy self could substitute for their unhealthy stuff. I could compensate for what ever was missing in the situation. I could Pollyanna my way into a good relating with them, a healthy conversation. (referring to my disordered parents).

As an adult I can look back and see how false that is. My healthy desire for honesty was met with contempt, or bitterness, or whatever. I have many memories where I assumed that they wanted an honest emotional experience. I assumed a lot about people who had not developed those capacities, nor could they hold on to an honest view of their own behaviors.

You wrote: "The traits of a PD, even with an emotionally healthy target, make quality communication near impossible, but again, add trauma backgrounds and transference to the non, and its an exceptionally steep downhill run."

I would agree. If we think about the goal of communication, say between 2 people, it is to transfer something from one person to the other - a piece of information. The sender encodes their message, sends it to the receiver, who decodes the message.

One person says "What time is it?" and their friend responds "It is 4 o'clock now". A most basic exchange.

But we are relational beings, not robots...As Harriet Lerner's writing focused on, we are in a 'dance' with the other person. There is more going on than just getting the information about what time it is. We were born, wired up for connection and a need to belong (feel seen).

We were not born simply to survive, but to thrive, and to thrive we need(ed) connection. Most of the time, we are not just asking "What time is it?" we're asking to be related to. We're asking for connection.

Having been raised by PD's, I had a front seat view into how the brain can get disordered, and can dis-organize all of the attempts to 'dance' the dance of connection. Instead, the PD (parent in my case) could not dance the dance, and all communication felt very disorienting, because it wasn't organized around connection. It was organized around narcissism.

As a survivor of PD parental abuse I will attest to how even a simple sentence can be encoded by an NPD parent, so that it does damage. The parent who says "It's 4 o'clock" in a tone that conveys that their child is stupid or annoying for asking. All of it does so much damage to the child.

It is very understandable for us all to get to a place where we are tired of what Lerner called "the dance of anger". Who wants to keep dancing with an angry dance partner? The narcissists in my life had a lot of anger. A lot. The only other trait they had more of than anger was denial. "I'm not angry" "I'm not the problem" and so on....which speaks to their blindness to their own transference. They are blind to the 'dance steps' that they can't (or wont') do.

You are not blind to the 'dance' that is going on between you and other people (PDs and nons). You can see things - and that allows you to learn and grow.

As children we relied on the adults around us to 'see' our need for connection because we were very young with a lot of brain development that had not happened yet.

Those of us with trauma histories have to see our past so that we can address some of the missed developmental steps - the experiences we didn't get very often because no one danced the dance of connection with us when we needed it most. Wanting more effective conversations is tied to a need that we have had for a long time -a need we had all the way back when we were really small and we needed effective connections.

Right now I am thinking through my communication with people with fleas. Do these interactions bring me anything helpful to my healing? I mean, some are necessary and transactional, and I don't think much about those. But the voluntary ones, where I have agreed to converse with someone who is "half listening". I end up asking myself if I want such exchanges anymore. The voluntary ones - the ones I can easily say no to. I too crave more effective conversations. I ask myself how often I want to voluntarily dance the "dance of disconnection" at middle age....Like why?

Trees

[JustKeepTrying]

This is a fascinating topic. SOT - I am grateful for your viewing the vital topic with a clinical almost experimental approach.

I took whole college classes in listening - and they all went out the window when I met a PD.  The skills are so different and developed at a time when the language for what was experienced wasn't even developed.  I now understand that all that happened was I pulled out the toolbox I was building as a child and felt comfortable and safe for me.

Recently, on two separate dates with two different individuals, I experienced engaging and thought provoking discussions that lasted for hours.  Upon reading this post, I can see and put a finger on what was different between them.

Suspected PD - the exciting discussion was a delicate push and pull where I thought I was validated and supported. Upon reflection, there was an anxiety to the interaction/a moment before replying where I had to instantly gauge whether my response was safe/while I was reassured my response was ok it was coupled with a but.  In all, I found myself beginning to "scan the toolbox" as SOT says while listening.

NonPD - the discussion was soft, meandering and sometimes quiet - each actively listened reflecting back key statements for understanding with a rebuttal - if needed - sometimes we just reflected back and waited for the response.  It was an eye opening conversation where I felt again supported and validated but never felt the need for my toolbox.  I had to remind myself to pause for replying - but I do that nowadays with anybody for any reason.

SOT, Trees, Bloomie and SS - your posts have truly changed how I look and participate in communicating.  I hope these changes will be long lasting!  I also think it's an interesting filter that can used across all relationships that may help filter future PDs

[SonofThunder]

Trees:
"...the experiences we didn't get very often because no one danced the dance of connection with us when we needed it most. Wanting more effective conversations is tied to a need that we have had for a long time -a need we had all the way back when we were really small and we needed effective connections."

In mindfulness, I have begun to identify those habits I desire to eliminate.  In addition, developing new habits through study and steady practice. 

Mindfulness is an ongoing practice for me, and having read the book by Williams and Penman, and practicing, I am seeing great improvement.  That mindfulness practice is expanding my ability to analyze my communication skills by proactively preparing me for good conversation, being aware of my +/- communication habits during, and then accurately dissect the conversation afterward, similar to how JustKeepTrying (JKT) described her two conversations with the suspectedPD and the nonPD.

JKT:
"Recently, on two separate dates with two different individuals, I experienced engaging and thought provoking discussions that lasted for hours.  Upon reading this post, I can see and put a finger on what was different between them."

This is fantastic JKT!!  Knowing yourself so well, your radar is finely tuned!  Similar to the mindset of boundaries, we can only control our own actions and reactions. Therefore only focusing on improving my communication skills, will give me self-confidence, allow me to have fruitful conversations and help my analysis to improve, regardless of the other person's conversational skills. 

JKT well describes her helpful toolbox radar raising a caution, and she pays attention to the radar.  If my own negative habits are blended into my conversation, then my radar may be giving off false reports to me, which is not desired by me, nor fair to the other person.

If I am able to improve my skills, I will presume my radar will provide me a more accurate picture, because my confusing data is reduced.  Therefore also, like JKT, I may be able to trust my radar feedback to better provide me truth about the other person and their motives, positive or negative.

Better truth radar for me does not even mention the byproducts of my improved active listening and engaged conversation, which may really enhance the interactions and provide the other person an engaged listener in myself, but also allow me growth, confidence in myself and the enjoyment of rich conversation. 

I will continue to analyze, identify and improve to reduce my negative habits and add the teaching of better communication and active listening.  Thanks to everyone for the deep conversation and encouraging feedback.

SoT