Do they think denying things repeatedly will fool you? Turbo-gaslighting.

[easterncappy]

Sometimes I feel like my mom felt like repeatedly denying something made it true. That she could trick me into believing the false version by denying it enough times.

I don't know if she really believed the nonsense she was saying, or if it was a power play of "I'm going to repeat myself until you realize what you're supposed to be thinking".

One example is of how often she'd change a story. I would distinctly remember her saying something to me in a snarky, rude, dismissive tone, and I even got into the habit of writing it down exactly as it happened, right after it happened. The next day? "I didn't say it like that! You're misremembering things! I was just worried! I asked you like any worried mother would!". And we would go back and forth. This was before I knew words like "gaslighting" or that denial was common in abusive families, or even that I had an abusive family. I thought we just didn't get along. Anyway, she'd repeat herself over and over every time I tried to correct her on how I remembered it.

Did she actually believe that she said something in a nice, loving, worried tone when she really said it to me in a hurtful, aggressive way? Or did she think that repeating it enough times would fool me into thinking I misremembered it?

[moglow]

I've noticed that a great many things look different in hindsight, mainly hers. Gaslight all they want, but there's barely a shred of reality in anything we're told at times. Defensiveness kicks in then all bets are off.

There was a notable situation between me and mine several years back where she said on a vm that it was easier to talk to me by text, that all I was interested in was MY thoughts and MY feelings and "all that crap!" spoken with all the spite she had in her at the moment. That one stuck with me and I saved the message to remind me. Months later it came up and I quoted it back to her, and of course she vehemently denied every word, that she'd never have said such a thing. Went on further - for her to believe that she said what I said she did, she needed PROOF! All righty then. Told her to stand by and I forwarded that vm right on back to her. Then -you guessed it- that's not what she meant. I took it wrong. I read things into it. I blew it out of proportion. Etc etc ad nauseam while she worked herself up into a froth. Um no. Ya said what ya said. It's all right there, give it a listen or 12, I know I have. The ONE time I've been grateful I hung on to something for a while. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, as they say.

Their chosen delivery leaves a lot to be desired. I just stopped countering with anything that sounds even remotely logical to me, knowing she'd double down with more foolishness. She can have her drama and chaos all by her ownsome.

[monamurre]

I think people in general, and maybe people with PD more so, tend to "polish" the edges off history until the story suits them. Both my parents did this (in different ways).

My dad's recollections of his marriage with his second wife (my stepmother) are astoundingly inaccurate to the three children that lived through it. I don't know if he was in deep denial during her life or if his shinier version of their relationship started after she passed away.

As for accountability for day to day actions or comments, my mom would absolutely never admit to anything resembling a criticism. So strong was her reaction that I have very few memories of even trying to question her about something she said or did. It just wasn't worth the upset. Also there would absolutely never be an apology as Cat of the Canals wrote about recently. Never an apology. 

Ironically my mom used to really get down on me about my "tone of voice". That was one of her go to complaints about me as a kid... a only child who lived with one parent.....her.....wonder where I learned that tone of voice?) 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yeah, that happened in my last ever conversation with my mother. She said a terrible thing to me, I took a few days to think over a response, called her up and... yep wall of denial. "That's not exactly what I said..." Yes, you absolutely did. "Well I didn't MEAN..." Well there's an obvious contradiction here then. "Well just don't worry about it." "Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it." That last one was said eerily in monotone, repeated three times in a row. I had caught her out, and yes, turbo gaslighting indeed.

[Srcyu]

They really are in their own world and they will stay in it no matter what.
When they don't want to hear it or admit to it, they deny it. The narrative has to put them in a good light at all times. They cannot cope with anything else.

[Liketheducks]

Turbo-gaslighting!   What an apt description!

My PD dad, former physical and emotional abuser, and addict can't accept any of the BIG bad things he did.   I know that he was abused himself.    I feel sorry for him.   It is if he has blinders on about the big things.    For instance, he once pointed a gun at me as a teen.   When called on it....."the gun wasn't loaded".....so it's not nearly so bad.     Whole swaths of violent and abusive parts of my past, he doesn't recall or will claim they happen to or were done by someone else.    We weren't living in a tent.....we were having a camping adventure.   
I honestly think he has so much shame inside him, that he just can't accept that he did those things.    And, I'm not interested in upsetting myself by arguing the facts with him anymore.   We just have a very distant relationship where we talk about light things and the weather.    And by very distant, I mean....there is no way I'll physically be in his presence and IF he calls, I'll respond after I'm ready or have done enough self care to be in a place to keep myself feeling safe.

[treesgrowslowly]

They really are in their own world and they will stay in it no matter what.
When they don't want to hear it or admit to it, they deny it. The narrative has to put them in a good light at all times. They cannot cope with anything else.

One of the many epiphanies that got me Out of the FOG, was realizing that my PD parents have extremely unreliable memories. To the point where I am not sure how much of ANYTHING they have ever told me, is accurate to what actually happened.

What easterncappy describes in the OP here is familiar to me (and many of us as we can see here). The denial of something they said or did, is probably a hallmark of narcissist parenting.

As they got older, I realized these are not people I could rely on for any sort of accurate re-telling of anything.

It stands to reason that living your life in denial, would make you an unreliable narrator in a lot of situations. The denial prevents them from seeing things accurately. I'm not sure my parents could recall the things they did while in their dissociated states.

Holding memories is important. I realized how important or valuable it is when you can share a memory with someone in your life. Healthy relationships involve sharing memories, not arguing and bickering about them for 4 hours. I had to really ponder this as I realized the extent of the FOG I grew up with.

It is one of those things that a person probably takes for granted, unless they grew up with parents who went into denial about the past, every time the past was brought up. 

It is miserable having parents who refuse to recall things accurately - especially their own crappy behaviours.

Maybe they can't recall their crappy behaviours. Whether it is always a choice or not was moot to me eventually. Once I became a parent, this was not something I wanted to endure over and over. I didn't want my child to grow up being "turbo-gaslit" as Easterncappy refers to it!

I bet a lot of us endured this stuff..."I never said that" repeated over and over, and then maybe, maybe eventually the narcissist will switch to "Ok, maybe I did say that but it's only because you're such a problem in my life!". This song and dance is on repeat with a lot of narcissists. Denial and blame. Denial and blame.

Easterncappy, you asked about whether you think she is capable of creating a memory where she said things to you in a loving tone. I'm sure it's possible. Accuracy is not their goal.

Arguing with someone about whether something happened or not, can be very destabilizing to us. It left me drained and miserable whenever I did it.

The argument in itself provides the supply that the narcissist is seeking.

Trees

[easterncappy]

Thank you for the thoughtful responses everyone. I currently have a sick husband and a sniffly baby, so as the only functional person in the house currently, I don't have much time to reply to everyone individually. But every reply is always appreciated and read, and they always get me thinking.

Gaslighting - "I know it happened this way, but I'm going to tell them it happened another way"
Turbo-gaslighting - "I've even convinced myself that it happened another way!"

I understand why it may be considered a moot point to argue whether or not they really believe their nonsense, but at this point, I've developed an intellectual interest in trying to figure out how these people's brains work. Maybe this is not good for me. But man, I love reading books about the different mental conditions that abusive parents often have. I guess it's because I can't relate to it at all so I want to get in their heads.

I don't argue with her about it anymore, thankfully. She sent me a lovebombing text the other day and I just ignored her. Completely pretending that she didn't make up a fake scenario to try to get me to talk to her a couple of months back. Not playing the game anymore.

I like the point about shame. There's a "shame-rage cycle" which I think is more appropriately called the "shame-doubling down cycle". Perhaps a lot of this happens because they do feel shame about treating us poorly, but they'd rather double down on it and convince themselves they didn't mean it like that, rather than admit that they did something wrong.

I do hang onto things from my mom. I reckon one day I might need them for some sort of evidence for a restraining order. Just covering bases, lol.

[Sneezy]

easterncappy - So sorry to hear that you are dealing with a sick hubby and a sick baby.  Not fun at all.  As far as repeating things to make them true, that is one of my mom's super-powers.  She truly thinks if she says it, then it must be so.  I've told this story before, but it never fails to baffle me - one time mom claimed she was completely out of bottled water and I HAD to bring her some right away.  (Back then I still asked how high when she said jump).  Anyway, I lugged a case of water up to her apartment, opened the fridge, and saw that it was full of water.  Right in front of her I counted all the bottles she already had in her fridge.  There were 40 bottles in there.  And then I closed the fridge and mom looked me right in the eye and said "no, there's only 12."  I had just counted, out loud, from one to forty, while she watched.  And she insisted there were only twelve.

There is no reasoning with someone who believes their own lies.

Hope your family is well soon 

[olivegirl]

The turbo-gaslighting is the reason why I had to make the move to NC.

My sadistic mother enjoys inventing cruel narratives just to elicit a reaction from me and then presto!

When I counter her version of events, she reacts that I am calling her a liar, bullying her......more fuel.

She is very preoccupied with the possibility of developing dementia as she ages.

I now see it for what it is: she is a prolific liar and it is taxing for her to keep her stories straight and she starts to believe some of her lies.

Curiosity got the best of me and I listened to a recent voicemail she left me:

She begged me to argue with her and that the silence is driving her mad!

Why would she want me to debate with her?   

[Leonor]

"The argument in itself provides the supply that the narcissist is seeking."
-Trees



Any response to ridiculousness is a win for PDs.

I say something cruel and you are too gaslit to react. I win!

I say something cruel and you are too shocked to respond. I win!

I say something cruel and you react with strong emotions. I win!

I say something cruel and you argue about it. I win!

After so many years with PDs, I no longer believe they are confused or defensive or trying to cover up past mistakes when they say something hurtful and then lie about it.

I think they say cruel things precisely to elicit a reaction from us. It's fun for them. It's a power trip.

The denial just keeps the game going, not because they are trying to squirm out of something, but because we react to it.

It doesn't matter if it's a reaction of anger or sadness or frustration or guilt or even joy and happiness ... The reaction is the supply, because it's proof of power. And they relish that power.

The absolute worst, for me, are covert narcissists. A grandiose narc like my dx'd hpd mom is easy enough to placate by telling her (or rather agreeing with her) how wonderful she is. Then it's on to the next shiny object.

But my covert inlaws were infuriating, because they had these unassuming, woe is us, we just do the best we can facade, but their ploys for emotional reactivity from their children (AND Dil, ahem) were just beyond. Relentless!

[doglady]

 
You nailed it, Leonor.

The only option is to step out of the game.

And yes, Cappy, turbogaslighting is an awesome way to describe what they do.

I find their memories are invariably 'unreliable' when recalling anything that paints them in a less than positive light. Yet, funnily enough, they are apparently uncannily accurate when portraying their scapegoats in a negative light. So, are their memories unreliable? Or very selective? Either way, it's exhausting as hell and you simply can NOT trust *anything* they say - at least that's my rule. Works for me.