Turning my attention to DH...

[Pepin]

I am conflicted about posting in this category on Out of the FOG but it now seems necessary.  I've been through almost all the others....PD parents, siblings, in-laws, elderly family...ugh, even neighbors.  And, here I am switching gears into this part of the group.  Quick recap, CN MIL died last year.  I married the hero child and it has been a bumpy ride from the moment we got married and moved closer to CN MIL and FIL.  DH had me convinced that his parents would be helpful; turns out they were the ones needing help.  First strike.  The next strike happened when I discovered porn....magaazines, videos, dvds....and then receipts for strip clubs, escorts...I didn't even have to "look" for any of this.  DH was being sloppy with his secrets.  When I brought up the discovery of the escorts I was told, "well, (guy friend) spent all this money on booze and I felt it was the only way to contribute."     Such, stupid logic.  And, he never apologized either....just said that he would never do that again -- which really was code for, "I got caught and I have to be more careful." 

Last year after CN MIL died, DH went ahead and joined some guys on our side of the coast for a trip.  You guessed it: strip club was on the agenda.  Then, recently, a friend from that group was visiting in another area nearby and DH took it upon himself to again visit a strip club with him.  Since I wasn't there, I don't know who initiated the visits...was it the friend, DH or mutual?  And of course DH lied about the last visit saying he was at a bar.  I've been able to track him not of my own specific doing, but of again, his own sloppiness to leave clues and receipts.  I don't know if he is being sloppy on purpose or what....

Outside of all this garbage, things are ok.  We have had some more time to ourselves, the children are doing well with their school/stuff, and DH's extended side of the family is more or less leaving us alone after the bombshell mess dispersal of CN MIL's estate at her death.   

All of this has just been so confusing.  I feel like I have been dealing with PDs left and right...and it is devastating that I am now having to look more closely at who I am married to.  Hero child, mother enmeshed man, subscribes to culturally damaging practices through loyalty....what am I going to do?  Was hoping to relax on some of my vigilance after the death of CN MIL...I just don't know.  He seems to lack awareness....and he is becoming more of a black and white thinker.  Much more to write about.....it is overwhelming. 

[SonofThunder]

Pepin, I am so very sorry to read about all of the damaging behaviors from your DH, and as you said, its just been one thing after another.  I will be keeping you in thought and prayer as you churn these things around in your wonderful, caring mind, turning unknowns into knowns.  You are not alone. 

SoT

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Pepin,

The two specifics there - drinking with buddies and going to strip clubs - are the practices that teen boys mostly engage in. Much of it (not all males of course do this) is part of a cultural 'ritual' of feeling 'grown up'. Since those events happen towards the end of adolescence when they are old enough to get in to clubs and bars. Watching someone who is clearly not a teen, do those sorts of things would be upsetting to me as well.

It does make sense to me, through the lens of how people 'cope' after a loss. They can revert to more immature behaviours, and maybe not even realize they are doing it. You mention he's not hiding receipts etc... and maybe that is intentional but it might just be part of how he's just living more like a teen again for now.

But of course the rub is that you are not reverting to adolescent behaviours in order to cope with where you are in life. So there's a real gap between how he's behaving right now, vs. how you're addressing your own needs at this time. You are being reflective.

When both people in a marriage decide to use their 40's or 50's (or 60's)  to "drink like teenagers", it doesn't cause as much friction or upset (I know this because I watched an aging relative do that exact thing! He found someone who wanted to drink and go to clubs with him, and they both revisited their immature adolescent behaviours together).

I am sorry you are alone in this because you are not sure your DH really 'get's where you are at - emotionally.

It's hard to realize this stuff. I think it is important that you do this exploring, but also make sure you take care of yourself during this time. When we have to explore this sort of situation in our life, it does come with emotions that can overwhelm our system (grief, anger, confusion, maybe even disgust....). It is important to tend to ourselves because those sorts of emotions do have a lot of power.

I speak from my own experience, that it is overwhelming to realize some of my needs in midlife are not being well understood by anyone around me.

I appreciate how overwhelming this is for you. Hang in there.

Trees

[Poison Ivy]

Your post is relevant to me, too, treesgrowslowly. Thank you.

[escapingman]

Pepin.  I think you are getting where I got with my STBX. I let her get away with everything and blamed it on her parents. When they were no longer around in our daily life things changed very quick.

Don't give your husband a get out of jail card. Adult mature people don't go to stripclubs or buying escorts. I went to stripclubs twice when 18-20 because my friends wanted to, I hated it and have never been again.

Stay strong Pepin. You are with friends.

[Pepin]

Pepin, I am so very sorry to read about all of the damaging behaviors from your DH, and as you said, its just been one thing after another.  I will be keeping you in thought and prayer as you churn these things around in your wonderful, caring mind, turning unknowns into knowns.  You are not alone. 

SoT

Thank you SoT - the articulation of your kind and wise words recently have been incredibly helpful for me. 

[Pepin]

The deciding factor will be, is he willing to admit that he has a problem and do something about it? If he just keeps on visiting strip clubs and hiring escorts despite your adamant opposition, then yes, absolutely you need to go down a more difficult road. But for now, if I were you, I would focus on, "is DH willing to admit that he has an issue and could we work together on a solution?"

Thank you for you thoughtful input as I grapple with this new reality.  I am terribly worried that DH is bordering PD.  He was raised by one and was loyal to her as much as he could be aside from my opposition.  And I was hoping after CN MIL's death that he would take his newfound distance and perhaps work towards finding a sense of self with out her constant interruption.  Perhaps he is testing the waters?  He doesn't know that I know about his recent behavior because I've been too stunned to speak up.  I feel so many things....devastated, disappointed, disgusted...just shaking my head and not really understanding why this is happening.  Frankly, I am uneasy about started with yet another therapist - because I am not the one with the problem -- but his behavior is a problem.  And he won't see a therapist until he can admit to himself that his own behavior is a problem.  I am at a loss to even have to have this conversation with him again.  We had one years ago after the escorts discovery and gosh I wish I didn't have to again bring it up with all the other stuff.  Is he an addict?  I haven't caught him enough to know.  But what I have amassed to date is concerning that I know.  And that just doesn't sit right with me...

[Pepin]

But of course the rub is that you are not reverting to adolescent behaviours in order to cope with where you are in life. So there's a real gap between how he's behaving right now, vs. how you're addressing your own needs at this time. You are being reflective.

Yeah....just, yeah.  This behavior of his while it seems possibly a grief reaction, is just terribly immature, to me.  Very adolescent.  And in a way it makes sense that he has done these things knowing that I disagree.  We both were heavily parentified and skipped over parts of our youth to meet the demands of our parents.  For him however, it has gone on much longer than mine because I bowed out and went NC.  DH has been a parental figure to his parents for well over 50 years of his life because they just couldn't be responsible grown ups.  They just could not do it. 

But, even so, if DH wanted to be rebellious, couldn't there be other ways for him to carry this out?  It is that specific lack of awareness that makes me worried about where this is all headed.  Now, to have carried out these acts of immaturity behind my back, required thought and money.  I keep a watchful eye over our money but I don't have access to a couple of his business accounts!  I have recently asked to have him sit down with me and just run me through them so I am not in the dark.  He doesn't have to give me passwords or anything else....just take me through them so that I understand in case anything happens.  I think he agreed to shut me up but I am not backing down until we actually sit down together and do this.  This lack of transparency doesn't sit right with me.  And I want to back him into a corner until he admits the truth of his behavior.  We can't fix anything until he comes clean.

[Pepin]

Pepin.  I think you are getting where I got with my STBX. I let her get away with everything and blamed it on her parents. When they were no longer around in our daily life things changed very quick.

Don't give your husband a get out of jail card. Adult mature people don't go to stripclubs or buying escorts. I went to stripclubs twice when 18-20 because my friends wanted to, I hated it and have never been again.

Stay strong Pepin. You are with friends.

Thank you!  For far too long I have been letting him off the hook because of his parents -- and now it is time for him to be accountable and grow up.  If he thinks he married me to have me do the mothering he never got, that is another thing coming.  I need a mature man for a husband.  And if he cannot commit to that, then he's gotta go. 

[bloomie]

Pepin - what a painful exposure of disrespectful and harmful behavior on your H's part. My heart goes out to you as you sift through how this impacts you and what you want to do about it.

For far too long I have been letting him off the hook because of his parents -- and now it is time for him to be accountable and grow up.  If he thinks he married me to have me do the mothering he never got, that is another thing coming.  I need a mature man for a husband.  And if he cannot commit to that, then he's gotta go.

Requiring your H to clean up this mess he has made is a good first step in establishing what does and doesn't work for you going forward.

[Leonor]

Hello dear Pepin,

You are such a brave spirit, thank you for sharing your journey with us. I am sorry you're going through this excruciating pain.

Kenneth Adams is a wonderful resource for partners of mother enmeshed men, and his work draws a clear line from enmeshment to sex addiction in men. He's actually a specialist in male sex addiction, and I wonder if you might find his work validating.

Your dh may very likely be suffering from sex addiction, and this sloppiness with receipts and paper trails may be a call for help. He may be white-knuckling through some times, when things seem ok,  and relapsing in times of stress, such as after the loss of his emotionally domineering mother.

It may be relevant, too, that in other areas things seem to be ok. He may be compartmentalizing his addiction as a way to release stress so he can "function" in other areas of his life.

Dear Pepin, it's not your fault. None of this has anything to do with you, and as a life partner all you can do is share honestly about how his behavior, regardless of how you prefer to label it, has an impact on you.

And then turn to yourself, to educate and surround yourself with knowledgeable, caring experts on addiction, sex addiction, and the path toward healing for partners of sex addicts. There is very likely support groups and therapists near you who specialize in sex addiction, who would welcome you warmly so you wouldn't feel so alone. And to help you clarify what you require of your dh moving forward, as well as do the work you need to do on yourself, for yourself, to stay healthy even as dh is struggling.

Wellness and peace to you.

[Pepin]

Pepin - what a painful exposure of disrespectful and harmful behavior on your H's part. My heart goes out to you as you sift through how this impacts you and what you want to do about it.

For far too long I have been letting him off the hook because of his parents -- and now it is time for him to be accountable and grow up.  If he thinks he married me to have me do the mothering he never got, that is another thing coming.  I need a mature man for a husband.  And if he cannot commit to that, then he's gotta go.

Requiring your H to clean up this mess he has made is a good first step in establishing what does and doesn't work for you going forward.

Thanks, Bloomie.  This has been a truly painful aspect of my life - a betrayal like no other.  Just when I was thinking that now we can move forward together and just live...I am worried that I am never going to be able to have peace and rest during this lifetime.   

[Pepin]

Hello dear Pepin,

You are such a brave spirit, thank you for sharing your journey with us. I am sorry you're going through this excruciating pain.

Kenneth Adams is a wonderful resource for partners of mother enmeshed men, and his work draws a clear line from enmeshment to sex addiction in men. He's actually a specialist in male sex addiction, and I wonder if you might find his work validating.

Your dh may very likely be suffering from sex addiction, and this sloppiness with receipts and paper trails may be a call for help. He may be white-knuckling through some times, when things seem ok,  and relapsing in times of stress, such as after the loss of his emotionally domineering mother.

It may be relevant, too, that in other areas things seem to be ok. He may be compartmentalizing his addiction as a way to release stress so he can "function" in other areas of his life.

Dear Pepin, it's not your fault. None of this has anything to do with you, and as a life partner all you can do is share honestly about how his behavior, regardless of how you prefer to label it, has an impact on you.

And then turn to yourself, to educate and surround yourself with knowledgeable, caring experts on addiction, sex addiction, and the path toward healing for partners of sex addicts. There is very likely support groups and therapists near you who specialize in sex addiction, who would welcome you warmly so you wouldn't feel so alone. And to help you clarify what you require of your dh moving forward, as well as do the work you need to do on yourself, for yourself, to stay healthy even as dh is struggling.

Wellness and peace to you.

Thank you Leonor, I have been following Dr. Adams for several years now -- trying to learn and understand as much as I can.  There isn't much info (if any) about what a mother enmeshed man goes through after the death of his mother.  And my fear is that in my case, DH will only worsen before he can see the error of his ways, if at all.  It may be that there is no other way for him than to be this man that is living a double life- unless I walk away and let him have the other life he hides from me. 

As far as I can tell, DH is still holding firm ground about how he viewed his mother.  This morning I had a sort of aha moment around this: Both of DH's parents struggled with maturity, FIL in particular.  From my understanding, FIL was not a very present father or husband.  He essentially was nothing more than an earner.  And his lack of maturity was probably very painful for CN MIL having to deal with everything else.  DH was the one son who stepped in to cover for FIL's lack to the family.  DH felt so badly for his mother -- and I am nearly 99.9% certain that DH is NOT sharing things with me that happened regarding his father's behavior.  They weren't close....but FIL seemed like a good grandfather....though he probably wasn't the best father.  I often feel as though DH is not present enough in a way that makes me feel supported as a wife like I see with my peers.  And I'm guessing that DH is kind of doing to me what his father did to CN MIL.  FIL definitely kind of lived a double life and it was his other life (work) that he spent more time in.  And since this was internalized from such a young age, of course DH would pick up on it.

But what is confusing about all of this is that I didn't see it when I met DH!  I just didn't know this would happen.  Moving closer to FIL and CN MIL was the ultimate mistake....the right circumstances to allow mother and son to continue the enmeshment.  And it just got worse and worse.....and then FIL died and everything hit the fan!  CN MIL was all alone and the GUILT had to have been massive and it just sucked DH in and away from me. 

And now that she is dead.....he's still living with this guilt and turning towards other damaged individuals for solace and they in turn enable him to continue acting out.  I just cannot believe that this even happens to people.....that this is a thing that some men go through because of their damaged mothers.  I'm the scapegoat yet again for people who don't want to heal.   

[treesgrowslowly]

Pepin,

I think that the realizations you've had are really important ones. I am also so so sorry you are going through this.

I really really hear you when you wrote in a previous post that you are reluctant to go to therapy because you are not the one with the problem behaviour. I hear you! That said, a therapist is someone who can be objective with you about your past, present and hopes for your future. They can help you to unpack your feelings about the past - the fact that you now realize that moving close to your IL's made life harder for you.

Hindsight is a powerful force in our work of self-discovery. It is only in hindsight that I have the realizations I have about many decisions I made earlier in my life. It can be so heavy to try to process all of that on your own. The only reason I am talking to you about considering a therapist for yourself, is so that you can bring some of that to someone, and lighten the burden on your shoulders right now. You don't have to process all of that emotion all alone. Something I have learned (in hindsight!) is that sometimes, there is value in paying someone to just cry in their office for an hour. At some points in our life, we may need that place to just bring those emotions.

Having a partner who seems to be acting out instead of looking inwards to heal, is very very painful for you, for very understandable reasons. You deserve much support for what you are experiencing right now.

I do believe that people do repeat the patterns from their parents, unless they learn how to do something else. Therefore, even without realizing it, on an unconscious level we will do things that our parents did, without recognizing it. If his father led a double life, it was because living more authentically was not something his dad explored (maybe out of fear, resentment or pure PD illness). It was, in a way, the 'easy' way out. Rather than address traumas and PD behaviour.

When someone in our life is not ready to be accountable for their behaviours, it is very very hard on us.

We can't do our partner's healing work for them...and living with someone who is off doing all sorts of things that are about hiding, not healing is painful for us. There are a lot of painful moments for those of us who see things that others in our life are not ready to see yet.

Trees

[Leonor]

 

So true, Pepin, and I know you were so hoping that your mil's passing would bring healing to you, your dh, and your marriage.

Although I only can address what you have shared with us here, it certainly sounds like his behavior is consistent with that of an addict: his behavior is reckless, compulsive, secretive, long-term, and negatively impacting his primary relationships.

If you replaced words like "escort" or "club" or "pornography" with "drinking buddy" and "tavern" and "vodka bottle," it would be much clearer that he is in an addiction. And it would be easier in a way; we as a society have come to terms with alcoholism-everyone knows what AA and Al-Anon stand for. If you go to a meeting, no one looks at you twice; they may even admire your courage and wish you well. Pharmaceutical companies that inflicted opioid addiction on thousands of vulnerable people in pain are being sued for millions in the courts. But sex addiction? Addiction to porn? That trauma-fueled compulsion is still clouded in a thick fog of shame.

Pepin, you know in your heart that you cannot scold or lecture or analyze your dh out of addiction and into recovery. You cannot explain his trauma to him and then wait for him to see the light and make amends to you. You cannot mourn or grieve or heal for him, even though it's clear that you would. This is your love, the man in your life.

But you are also a mother, and once again it's up to mom to ensure her babies, no matter how old and independent they are, have a solid and safe place to land on this planet. You must be clear eyed and full hearted, if not for you, for them. You deserve support and compassion as these awarenesses come to the surface. To feel surrounded by women who Get It. To not do everything alone anymore.

And perhaps your clarity and insistence on truth moving ahead will inspire your dh to get himself into treatment. This is my hope for you both.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Pepin,

Again so very sorry for having to deal with these things with your DH.  I have not seen it mentioned yet in the thread, so will add this point for consideration of your self-protection.  If i missed its mention, then my apologies for the repeat. 

You originally wrote:

"when I discovered porn....magazines, videos, dvds....and then receipts for strip clubs, escorts...I didn't even have to "look" for any of this."

A: Porn, magazines, videos, dvds:  These are all related to photos and videos of humans not physically present with your DH.

B: Strip Clubs:  physically present humans, but highly assumed all strippers not accessible to DH. 

C: Escort: physically present with DH, potentially accessible for sexual acts if the escort desires (this can happen against or not against escort service company policies). 

I would personally assume that if my stbx hired a male escort, she was having sex.  Addiction or not, C crosses a line imo.  A and B can be affiliated with addiction and/or peer pressure for adults who may have a weak backbone, but C just hits different. 

If my stbx had sex with another man, she risked bringing a disease home to me.  For me personally, the one-on-one infidelity nature of the escort (sex or not) is over the line.

Since your DH hid A, B and C, can you believe/trust that he did not risk bringing a disease home to you?

SoT

[square]

I had the same thought. "Escort" is on a different level.

[escapingman]

Agree with Square and SoT, whatever his issues are, addicion or PD or whatever, he has completely lost his respect for you and if it was me I would have thrown him out.

[Srcyu]

Yikes. He will be putting your health at risk.
The message from him appears to be, " This is what I am doing. You are expected to say nothing and just put up with it."

The male company he is currently keeping will match this attitude. He probably learnt it from them.

In order for it to stop he would need to cease spending time with those friends. They are leading him to think that it's an appropriate way to treat wives, girlfriends and partners.



milly

[hhaw]

P:

I hope you research trauma informed therapists and consider interviewing a few in your area.

Whatever choices you make, they should be made with eyes wide open and clarity around your choices, motives, causes and conditions, ime.

Focus on yourself seems necessary to discern why you chose this man, why you stayed and how you'll handle decisions in your marriage.

You can't heal or save your husband, but you can do those things for yourself.

You can set healthy boundaries and hold them.

You can keep yourself safe, and model self care for your children.

What you can't do is change your husband.

I agree a good Therapist can help you figure out what you  want and how to regulate your emotions, whatever you decide.

Focus on yourself seems very wise to me. 

















You can take an honest look at what separating would mean for you and your children.