Therapist insights (antisocial PD, dependant PD)

[easterncappy]

I started therapy about a month ago and so far, so good. He's still just getting to know me and my family's story. He told me that while he can't diagnose people he's never met, the stories I tell him make it seem like my dad is possibly antisocial or narcissist, and my mom is extremely dependent.

Does anyone else have experience with antisocial personality disorder or dependent personality disorder? NPD seems to be the most common, and while I don't doubt that both of them have N tendencies, the idea that antisocial and/or dependent PD can be playing a role here is new and interesting, and there isn't really that much material on the internet about these two PD's being present in a person's parents.

Obviously, there's a bit of overlap between different PD's especially in the same cluster. And a person can have qualities of multiple of them.

Some thoughts I have...

While my dad is extremely devoid of empathy, willing to go to almost any length even if illegal and immoral to accomplish what he wants, and genuinely has never felt remorse in his life (that I know of), he's never been in much trouble with the law. Apparently this is a required characteristic. I think his self-preservation instinct is too strong to end up in jail. It's similar to how he doesn't really feel remorse - the only time I saw him give empty, half-assed apologies was when he felt like his comfort was in jeopardy, such as the few times it seemed like my mom really might leave, not because he actually thought he did anything wrong. So I'm not sure if this is more narcissistic or antisocial.

My mom definitely has lots and lots of traits I'd consider narcissistic, but the dependent thing is definitely an interesting take. She is extremely needy, incapable of doing much for herself without throwing a fit (I used to drive her everywhere and had to pay her bills for her etc.), seems to be genuinely convinced she'd die without my dad or some other Big Mighty Man in her life, doesn't understand why people get married for any reason besides ensuring their financial comfort and survival (she mocks divorced women who chose a financially modest life alone over financial security with an abusive man). She's pretty much always been employed at least part time, but seems to be convinced she'd be left for dead if she had to pay her own bills and not depend on my dad (she makes more than him and it's enough for one person to comfortably live off of). Some of her abuse towards me reeked of typical narcissism - although much of it seemed to be "I don't really care what happens to you as long as your dad gives me a materially comfortable life".

Something else that I think is noteworthy is that I believe my dad would have been a terrible, evil, degenerate monster of a human being no matter who he married... BUT, my mom probably would have been a nice lady with some anxiety issues if she married a good man. Not that one would really be drawn to someone with the issues she already had, but it seems like the influence of my dad has made her much worse. My dad was just rotten to begin with. The little bit of material I've found on DPD says that the individual tends to mold themselves and their identity around whoever they end up marrying, so it checks out.

Before my therapist said this, I would have described my parents as "the bigger narcissist has the smaller narcissist on a leash". Of course, he could still be wrong, and I'll probably ask him about a lot of this in our next session. I'm not really sure if people can have multiple PD's at once.

[easterncappy]

Another point towards the possibility of dependent PD:

My mom is incapable of holding an opinion if my dad disagrees with it. 100%. It's quite pathetic to watch, actually.

One time, we saw a homeless woman with a small child in the cold, and we felt bad so we bought them some burgers from McDonald's. My mom ranted the whole way home about how bad she felt for the woman and child, and how no one should have to live like that. When we were home, she told my dad about it - my dad, who had never seen this woman and was not there when we spoke to her, decided that she was an alcoholic, a drug user, the child possibly wasn't even hers, etc. and my mom immediately changed her mind. She got angry with me for suggesting that maybe she really was a nice lady who fell on hard times - no, my dad said she was a bad person, and that's the end of that!

It was surreal to watch and not the only time she did something like this. Supposedly, this is what individuals with DPD do.

[moglow]

I'll go ahead and complicate it for you - it's rare to find a "pure" NPD/BPD/other. For BPD in particular, Christine Lawson [Understanding the Borderline Mother] further breaks them down into four sub-categories - Queen, witch, waif, hermit. My mother was for sure queen/witch when I was growing up, but has transitioned more to waif/hermit as she's gotten older and lost control of her children/the world around her.

As a friend who was diagnosed borderline explained it, think of it this way: One has to consistently over time exhibit *at least* five of seven characteristics. The multiplier effect is where it gets tricky - not everybody exhibits the same five or even all seven characteristics. Some might have six; others might exhibit five but they aren't the same five as the person over here. Basically she said there are 273 *different types* of borderlines, and that's not even considering comorbidity with other personality disorders, mental health issues, medical conditions, etc.

My stance is and will always be, the behaviors are what tell the tale, what make or break us. We can call them anything we want but it doesn't change what we're dealing with in the big picture. Picking it apart trying to figure out "what they are" only gets us so far. We have to work on how we do what we do and hang tight to boundaries so we don't lose our ever loving minds.

[NarcKiddo]

I think with a lot of people you can probably draw a Venn diagram of various different PDs or other mental issues and the person concerned is in some section of that diagram. Bearing in mind PDs tend to have a strong generational aspect, plus of course fleas, and it makes sense to me that people would not necessarily fit neatly into any particular box. And as Moglow has pointed out they can fluctuate over time. My mother, too, was very much queen/witch as we grew up but her power base has all but gone and that does not work for her any more, so she is reaching for other tools in her PD toolbox. She is primarily a narc of some description, I am sure, but so is my father and on the surface they are chalk and cheese.

I haven't had cause to research the two PDs your therapist has particularly mentioned in connection with your parents. Personally, I find it interesting and to some degree helpful to know what sort of PD person I might be dealing with if only because it gives me some validation that I am not just reacting bizarrely badly to a totally normal state of affairs. Beyond that, what is of prime importance to me is how I protect myself against the damage caused by those people, and start healing the damage they have already managed to inflict.

[RainbowG]

When I read your description of your parents, I wondered there for a minute if you had telepathic knowledge of mine. You described my parents to a T. Yikes!

I tend to think of my father as having uNPD and my mother as having either uDPD or uHPD (she loves drama). Currently my father is trying to force me to do something illegal and has broken the law when it suited him all his life, but I personally wouldn't consider him antisocial because his narcissistic tendencies are more common.

To be honest, I was more interested in the specific diagnoses when I first started recognizing that my parents were PD. At this point, I'm more interested in protecting myself against their destructive behaviors. I do totally understand the desire to know, though. It could help warn where trouble might come from in certain situations.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Easterncappy,

This is awesome that you are finding the therapy helpful. So glad you've got this resource and therapeutic support!

The others here have made great points about your question. Like NarcKiddo said there's probably a venn diagram that shows how all of their various traits and behaviours overlap.

For me, the level of dependency my uNPD mother had towards me is what explains why VLC didn't work with her. Had she been more avoidant instead of dependent in her style, I could see how VLC may have worked better. But when I tried VLC with her, it triggered all her dependency stuff. She insisted on having much access to me as she was dependent on me for supply. That said she would cycle through a discard with me too where she could go a month without contacting me. But of course it was always on her terms. 

So maybe this helps you as well to see that with some parents, their PD made it impossible for you to have the VLC or VVLC or LC that you tried before going NC.

I do think for me, her dependency on me maybe explains why LC was just miserable when I tried it.

When I read the psychology today summary of DPD, I can see how someone with DPD would be incapable of reliably healthy parenting.

The DPD parent is focused on their needs, not the needs of their children (just as the NPD parent is too).

This would probably explain a lot of what you see when you look back at how your mom dealt with different situations as you were growing up. If she had DPD, as the T suggests is possible, then her needs were going to come before yours, but in a way she would not be able to reflect on or think about.

What you describe is likely what they call a trauma bond. Where your mother bonded to her partner through her dependent state. While in the relationship with him, she's now quite unlikely to activate her more healthy self, and only a T working with her individually, could sort out what that process would look like for her. And how hard she would have to work to address her DPD.

There are many married women who become overwhelmed at the idea of moving out of their dependent state and into a more autonomous one. Like you described, she has not wanted to live without him. I grew up around women who definitely believed they would never be able to take care of themselves. It is a sad state for anyone to live in. They exercise very little -maybe no - autonomy.

They cannot think or feel their own thoughts or feelings confidently. Their kids pay a huge price for this - which I suspect you could attest to.

There are some things common to people with these various PDs.  They are very often people who are emotionally under developed. They didn't fully develop emotionally. They didn't develop the way that a typical person does, where empathy and pro social behaviours develop and strengthen throughout childhood and into early adulthood. Their development was arrested at some point. Where a typically developing person goes from being egocentric as a young child, to having their emotional system develop and mature (ie capacity to share, plays well with others, does not lie....), some people remain stuck in those younger states. They continue to lie to get what they want - way after those sorts of naive social behaviours are outgrown by their peers.

As babies we were all in a dependent state, and then we are meant to develop into autonomous and independent states.  Healthy adult relationships are interdependent. So if your mom has DPD then it will shed light on what you saw in her and why she behaved the way that she did.

Like with the homeless person incident, she was unable to stick with her original thoughts and feelings once your dad contradicted them with his (paranoid, and uncharitable) view of the homeless woman. Had she come home to a husband who was warm towards her and admired her generosity- instead of offering his negative view of these strangers, your mom would not have been tasked with choosing between her emotions and his.

I found these pieces of the puzzle helpful, so that I could understand my own struggles better.

All the very best to you as you work with your therapist Easterncappy!!

Hope you and your FOC are doing well. Hope baby is well!!

Trees

[Escaped_Goat]

I might be wrong but I've read that professionals are coming to view PD's as an umbrella because the clinical reality is that people dx with a pd invariably have traits of other pds. My dad had a npd/aspd/ocpd/schizoid profile.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yes, my parents' dynamic is very similar to yours. My father definitely has anti-social traits. He is high-functioning enough not to end up in jail, and has enough self-preservation and care for his image to keep from going nuclear, but I have never seen remorse from him either. He will go as far as he thinks he can get away with. My mother has dependent traits. I've witnessed many times her turn her opinion on a dime to match dad's, exactly like your description. There was a major fear of having to provide for herself financially, even though she worked hard at her jobs. It was always the reason given for why she could never leave him, we'd be on the street. 

I'd like to write more later. But there is a thing called "inverted narcissism" that I think fits our mothers.