Anyone else feel this hit you more in adulthood?

[Sheppane]

I'm having a hard time lately trying to develop a singular narrative for " What it was like for Sheppane". I'm wondering are there others out there who feel this has hit them more in adulthood than childhood ?

I look at content on YouTube which is black and white- golden child,  scapegoat,  narc father,  codependent mom.  Folk say things like " I never felt loved " .

But I did. And that's what I'm struggling with. I felt loved. I felt belonging. Admittedly there were difficult times too and instances that I remember which were very dysfunctional- parentification, shaming, guilt tripping etc. Ive written them down as it helps sometimes to remember how baf it was when it was bad.

But as I grew older and " left" and developed boundaries the relationships changed. And now I feel very lonely. But I have lots of very happy memories too. A bit enmeshed maybe,  but fundamentally it felt like love to me as a child and young adult.


But now it has all changed. There is little to no reciprocity. I call or no one calls.  I think in earlier years I did detach - appropriately- from times of conflict to protect myself. And I think that has lead the relationship gradually down this path. And now here I am, feeling sad and lonely. And wondering if I could have / should have done more. The relationships are superficial. I feel I had the love and lost it. And I'm plagued by that. In a way if it had been worse / more extreme maybe it would be less confusing. I mean that with no disrespect to anyone here who has suffered hugely in childhood, as I know many have had experiences far worse than me.

And then I wonder is that the conditioning? I grew up thinking our level of conflict was normal. And I think I always used the good times to overshadow the bad. No family is perfect, right ?

I feel guilty sometimes that perhaps I should have been less fearful of speaking my truth as my inability to do that caused me to back off, possibly in an avoidant way. But the ultimate message that comes to me now  from FOO is that I have abandoned them / failed them/ used to be the good daughter and no longer am. Its all very covert. Nothing stated directly, just empty and silent. The relationships feel empty now having been worn down for years. Unless there is an " event " or a focus. And I'm plagued by this feeling of ...have I ?? Maybe they are right ??? This has been said to me overtly during times of high conflict- that I don't see them enough / do enough with them/ they feel I don't care. It is partially true. I don't see them as much as someone in a healthier family might. Because it feels awkward / tense. Emotionally superficial. And I find that very difficult. And then I give myself a hard time over that - " make more of an effort Sheppane".

And it goes in waves. Sometimes when I am in contact and I hear back I get nice messages. And inner child feels back belonging again. But then when I misstep - for whatever reason - usually a boundary or something that causes disapproval - it turns to utter silence. For weeks. I can't bear it. If I call it out I think it makes things worse for me. I have had rage attacks and passive aggression which I find leave me with a hangover for days.  I feel physically sick at the thought of trying to address these issues with them for fear it would bring on more rage and gaslighting for me. So the silence and rugsweeping continues until it eventually goes away. Usually when I make contact. I'm back there again right now, listening to the silence.

And I tell myself that real love is unconditional. That these cycles dont happen in normal relstionships. But I worry that maybe it is my fault / I give an impression that I don't want to be part of them ? But I've never said that. I know they are deeply insecure , and also deeply resentful. So is this just what happens in relationship with people with very low self esteem ?

It feels like grief right now. But the constant self doubt and questioning myself is making it hard for me to grieve. As I am afraid maybe it is my fault that this is where we are now. Yet I am the only one keeping contact. So when I stop even for a few weeks - silence. Maybe the relationships just expose themselves. Objectively speaking I am the one making most of the effort but accused of doing the least. It feels like their attitude is" forget about Sheppane, she never bothers". It feels like I'm indifferent to them .

I don't want to hurt them. I do love them. Perhaps they think I don't. And that really saddens me. I don't know why they think that really. Did I disengage too much and is this the punishment? I don't know. Its been gradual over years - less contact in person, less phonecall,  less text messages.  Dwindling away. All I do know is I'm utterly confused and my head is spinning. And I'm afraid of how I'll feel when they die.
I feel I had love - but it has been withheld now. So I was probably the golden child - and now the SG. Or something like that.
Should I be doing something? Or is it a truth to be accepted.
I guess I want to know am I the only one who feels like this - that it wasn't all that bad back then and that there were genuinely happy times , aswell as the bad ones. Or is this the conditioning speaking and my failure to accept it ? Or am I expecting too much ? I think I feel too sad to feel angry.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Sheppane,

What a thoughtful writing you shared here. Thank you.

What came to mind for me, is that some people have the ability to relate to us as children, but as we grew older and we matured, they were a little lost as to how to relate to us. Maybe in their 30's, they were in a certain zone or state, things were going well, and then in their 40's or in their 50's they had losses they didn't recover from or maybe they had conditions that worsened (physical and / or mental).

A lot can happen in someone's life that results in their being avoidant or superficial towards us.

Maybe when they were 25 years old they could give more to their relationships than they can at age 45 or 55. For those of us with parents who are bringing less and less to the relationship with us the older we got, it can be heartbreaking.

What I have been thinking about lately is how many people of my parent's generation have not wanted to learn how to repair their relationships. How few of them have had insights into their relational lives, and their relational selves. Books and articles and videos now abound, and anyone can learn to reflect on their relational self.

They can watch a free video and learn how they relate to others and how they relate to loved ones. But I do not see anyone of my parent's age doing that (in my life anyways). I know they are out there, but they are not in my universe. It seems like it is us - their adult children - who are motivated to learn about our relational selves and our relational needs.

What you are describing here sounds like a disconnect - you want a healthy relationship with the people who raised you, and you are seeing that they show little to no interest in a relationship with Adult Sheppane, who has learned things and is thoughtful, self-aware and insightful.

To be blunt, when we are Out of the FOG, and we are now educated, we have more self-awareness, and we have our own insights about our own needs, this doesn't always mean that our parents will appreciate that this is who we are now, as adults.

One would hope for parents who not only accept who we are as adults, but celebrate our talents and insights....but if they are still in their own fog, they won't know what to do with us now that we've got insights and boundaries.

I think that is why we get left alone when we've gone into a more recovered state, and gotten ourselves Out of the FOG...They can't relate to the more self-actualized Sheppane.

I cherish this forum because in writing about our personal experiences, we get to see how each of us deals with the reality of being Out of the FOG. Some of us are able to make space for relatives and FOO members, and they have a role in our present and future. A lot of us have had to walk away from all the FOO, because our Out of the FOG-self is not going to be tolerated or respected by our FOO. No matter what we do, they are not ready to tolerate the boundaries, self-care and clear communication we now possess.

They should want to have a relationship with self-actualizing Sheppane. They should want the best for you, and they should be thrilled that you have learned about FOG and how to recover from it.

But that's probably only possible if they have done their own work on themselves. Inner work that you can't do for them. All you can do is offer them an opportunity to relate to you the way that you are now. If they reject this offer, it is on them. It doesn't mean your childhood was full of misery either. It is very possible that they gave you a lot of what you needed back then. I wouldn't doubt what it is you feel regarding your past with them.

You are now their adult child, and it is sad that they don't reach out and relate to you. It always shocks me when I see people who don't want a meaningful relationship with their adult children. Not all of those people are PD's (narc parents cannot tolerate the healthy boundaries that their adult children assert, but non PD's seem to be capable of distancing themselves from their adult kids as well).

Like you said, I'm more sad than angry about it these days too. 

I have noticed that there are a lot of adults who only want superficial relationships. This is hard on us because when you've done the work to get Out of the FOG, you're unlikely to enjoy superficial relating. It will feel empty - you'll feel what is missing.

There are a lot of adults who can only relate in superficial ways. If you try to relate to them in less superficial ways, you'll probably see their coping mechanism emerge (some version of their fight or flight will activate).

For them, the superficial relating is their comfort zone, and anything else is a threat to their self-concept. You may realize that you accept these terms, so that you can have these folks in your life. It is a personal decision at that point (to keep those superficial relationships in your life or not).

From what I have learned this works best when you've got other people in your life with whom you do have the depth of connection that you are craving.

We can't alter the level of functioning that our own parents and siblings are operating with. That is something only they could change / update. I have learned this the hard way with people - they are keeping things superficial for a reason. And I'm not going to be able to alter that.

I think that what you are feeling is real and I am sorry you are dealing with the loneliness. I hear you. It is lonely at times to want those connections and yearn for them.

Trees

[Blueberry Pancakes]

I wish I had a great answer for you, but I can say I felt similar. I felt loved. I even thought we were the perfect family of four with a dog and a station wagon and taking family road trips. 
   
For me, it was not that dynamics in my FOO were always and consistently bad. It was that it would always get worse at any point than I felt it ever should have. It was cyclical. The routine followed a pattern where I was always, always, always the wrong one. The mood would change quickly. I would never understand what happened, but I accepted it as a kid because as soon as I took responsibility for whatever made them mad, the situation blew over and everyone got back to normal.   

Like you, it was not until I left the house (at 18 for college) that I realized I felt so much better. Not being around my FOO, that cycle was gone. Even when I visited for a short time, the cycle returned. I connected the dots. I instilled increasingly stronger boundaries with my FOO and felt better. Also, as you state, my family would angrily say I did not love them and parents frequently asked verbatim "why don't you want to be part of this family"? Explaining only lead to hostility.
     
It was never that I did not love them or want to be part of the family. It was just that my strongest need was to be treated with regard for who I was as a person.

[Leonor]

Hi Sheppane,

If you had asked me when I was younger, even 15 years younger (I'm old) if I was loved as a child, I would have answered yes, absolutely.

Because I thought that love was what I knew: to be told I was loved. Not only was I told I was loved, I was told I was the favorite. I was told I was special. How lucky I am, they said, to have such a special relationship with you. My siblings, not so much. They were always getting into trouble, breaking rules, and being sent to other people's houses to live. Not me, because I was smart, I followed the rules. I felt bad for my siblings. They weren't loved.

I didn't really think about how I was treated, or how I felt about myself, or what was happening to me. The rages and absences and abuses ... I shut all that out. It didn't exist. As long as I believed I was loved, and told other people I was loved, none of that existed.

And as a result, I didn't exist. There were times when I really didn't feel that I existed. I moved thought the world as if I were 80% transparent. Whenever I felt too visible, I drank myself into a blackout. I didn't out any of that together until much, much later.

Now as a mom, I can absolutely say, Sheppane, that there is absolutely nothing any of my kids could say or do to me that would make me accuse them of not loving me or think they don't want to be a part of their family or simply not participate in their lives.

You are not, Sheppane, in any way somehow "to blame" for what happened to you or how your family is unresponsive towards you now. The confusion you are experiencing may be the healing fog: the kind that envelopes you when old feelings come up and it becomes hard to figure out what you are feeling and why. It may even be an old feeling: I live my mommy and daddy, they love me, then why do I feel this way? Where are they?

You couldn't do it wrong then, and you can't do it wrong now. Be gentle with yourself through all of this, there's no right or wrong.

[NotCryingGlitter]

Every family has their own things to overcome, but unconditional love IS love. Conditional love is not what love is about. If it's not unconditional, it's not real love, even though we use "conditional love" as a reference to explain. Real love is "reaching out" and "encouraging"; if they ignore you or put you down when you extend an olive branch, that's not love...and that's their loss.

I don't know your situation, but I do know that abusers have this power to do things that, on the outside, give the appearance of love, or they even can show a form of "affection" at times, though I wouldn't call it sincere. But you have to look in your heart and ask yourself "was it unconditional?" or was it something tightly controlled/dependent upon circumstance, because if it wasn't unconditional, then the root of the problem will always be at their doorstep, not yours.

[Sheppane]

Thank you all for your kind responses.

Trees this hit home "  A lot of us have had to walk away from all the FOO, because our Out of the FOG-self is not going to be tolerated or respected by our FOO". I think that's it. It changed. When I was in the FOG I felt loved. I'm now Out of the FOG and it's different.
Simple as that. They cannot accept or tolerate OOTG me. Its too much of a threat. So they join ranks and I'm the bad guy. And they don't contact me and make no effort anymore - yet that's what they blame me for. I remember a few years back asking Mom if she would like tickets for a fashion show - it was a big thing in our town. Her reply was " yes but that'll never happen ".  My fault before it even started.

Leonor what you said "
You are not, Sheppane, in any way somehow "to blame" for what happened to you or how your family is unresponsive towards you now.". Unresponsive seems very accurate. I keep getting death dreams about them. It feels like they are fading away more and more. Thank you for reminding me it's not my fault and my responsibility. I think that's what I ruminate on most. I hear Mom's voice of all the ways I have disappointed her as a daughter / a sister -- she has voiced this to me in rage fits. The great betrayal. Admittedly there was some of this when I was young too but I think I was such a good people pleaser and caretaker I just used to get on with it and not think about it too much. And apologise and feel sorry for her as if in some way I had disappointed her.  I never really feel this as an inner voice it's more my Mom's voice of disappointment and tears about how much she loves me etc etc. Very difficult for a young child. But I feel so sad when I think of the times she told me I was a wonderful daughter / that she was proud of me. I guess I thought that relationship would continue. And that those feelings for me were there for ever.

Blueberry ..yes ! That's my experience also. The cyclical nature of it. And noticing what was normal when I went to Uni and used to go back home to visit. Someone once said not to enjoy the good times too much cos they turn on a dime.

Notcryingglitter you are making the same point my T made recently. She said yes there were good times too. But the fact that me putting small boundaries in place provokes a reaction as if I'd threatened to burn their house or something shows how off things are. She said that the love is conditional. That mom needs to be able to control everything in her orbit and has such high narcissistic traits that if they doesn't happen- people get cut off.  Its true. This has happened with many people in Mom's circle. That the love for me gets withdrawn. In my FOO she's the boss.  Everyone else goes along with the status quo and it's all for one against the enemy. You are part of the family or you are out. Its a kind of mobbing I think.

It's just like you say Leonor. I hadn't really thought what a toxic thing it is for a parent to accuse their son or daughter of not loving them. A few years ago Mom told me she would never stop loving me, regardless of how I felt about her. This came after a rage attack. At the time I remember thinking it was maybe an attempt to say her love was unconditional, but most of me felt it was a punch in the gut.  You've stopped loving me but I will always love you.

It really doesn't feel like that anymore.

[NarcKiddo]

I thought I was loved because I was told I was. I had no way of knowing different and I could not have my own feelings because I was too busy looking after her. Yes, there were good times. And they were very good. I liken it to a slot machine where you are mostly losing but you get the occasional small win to keep you playing and the very occasional jackpot just when you might think about giving up.

Also, it is very hard to know where you are if you are dealing with a person who actually thinks they do love you. They just have a bizarre idea of what that entails, coupled with the fact that they put themselves first and need you to bolster their self-esteem. They can declare, with total sincerity, that they love you.

I am in my mid fifties now, and my parents are 70s/80s. I didn't realise what was wrong until my mid 40s. Any protective measures I put in place before that were just done by instinct but I would still basically dance to my mother's tune. She would mercilessly wield her power when necessary. But now she is conscious of her age and that she might actually need me. Her behaviour has changed. Not for the better, but it is just different and easier for me to deal with now I recognise it for what it is.

Their behaviour is hurtful and they often have an uncanny knack of knowing just how and when to strike. I hold on to the knowledge that I am not to blame for any of this. I maintain a level of contact I can tolerate that aligns with my own conscience and sense of duty. My therapist encourages me frequently to examine that sense of duty to make sure it is truly coming from me and is not some learned behaviour instilled by my mother. That is helpful. Ultimately I am the only person I have to live with for the rest of my life.

I feel for you and wish you all the best as you navigate this.

[Arnelle]

I can absolutely relate to things being different when I was little. My dad used to throw the best birthday parties and read to us and build things for us and he was the centre of attention at the parent's evenings in school and everyone loved him and I do have a lot of fun memories with him.

When I became a teenager this all changed, and in the last few years before I cut contact with him (which happened when I was 25), things were really hard and I would be honestly surprised if I saw him and didn't end up coming home crying because it had been so stressful. Our experiences are slightly different, but I absolutely also was the one who would make much more conversation and would get nothing, or maybe a GIF back, but then still be blamed for not talking to him enough. As a result I increasingly just sent things to make him happy, thought of questions to ask him before seeing him, etc etc - I really tried hard to be the person he wanted me to be, and it was never enough. On top of that I too was subjected to all kinds of horrible things being said to me in moments where he felt angry for no reason, and he never apologised, just got more angry when I didn't just pretend it never happened.

It continued like this for years until things exploded in a particularly bad argument when I set a firm boundary, which suddenly made me realise that none of this was normal. I literally hadn't realised until then! I always knew my dad was difficult and I had adapted my behaviour in so many ways to cater to him, but it was only in my mid-20s that I even realised that things had, in fact, always been a bit off, even when I was little, I just hadn't properly noticed at the time. I decided I couldn't do this to myself anymore, and I stepped away from the relationship (in a really messy and drawn out way because it's hard!). And honestly, this makes me sad to say, but I don't miss him at all. Cutting contact was hard because I am still working on grieving the relationship and the idea of a "normal" (whatever that means!) dad, but I am SO much happier now. Not trying to please him all the time has freed up so much space in my life.

I know our experiences aren't the same as I am the one who distanced myself (fully), but I think maybe the underlying mechanisms could be similar - I think my dad was great when I was little because he had total control over me as a child and I looked up to him so much and he loved that, while as I grew older I increasingly became more independent and wanted to do my own thing more and started dating and became financially independent and he increasingly lost power over me one step at a time, which he really couldn't handle. I think my dad couldn't deal with the fact I no longer saw him as perfect, so he lashed out against that in all kinds of ways. He expected me to be the one to initiate contact because "he was the father", but he also expected so much more from me, and it wasn't how things are meant to be in a healthy parent-child relationship at all.

I definitely understand your feeling of self-blame as well. I feel incredibly guilty about having cut contact even though I know it was the right thing to do for me. As you said - it comes in waves. I hear he's upset and I don't want anyone to be upset, and I remember how fun he was when I was little and it's so confusing, but at a certain point we need to take a step back and evaluate whether it's us doing things wrong or if - in fact - we are responding to things being done to us in a way that the people doing them to us don't appreciate. You should absolutely not have to be the only one reaching out, and it is not your fault that your relationship with your parents developed in this way. I think you are correct in referring to this as grieving, and it's so much harder to grieve a relationship that still exists, or a person who hasn't died. Writing things down and reading them when I feel guilty also helps me, it's easy to minimise quite bad things when you grew up being taught that they were normal.

I'm not sure if this is helpful at all, I think I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in these complicated feelings, and that you are not at fault here no matter what is being implied, and no matter what your own mind may tell you (you probably were raised to blame yourself for things, but you are not to blame), and reading your thoughts helped me feel less alone, so thank you for sharing them!

[NotCryingGlitter]

Arnelle, you make an excellent point about independence. And I like what you said about us needing to question whether our actions and reactions are based on their disapproval/their own actions or if we need to look at things differently. We were never encouraged to have validated feelings or have our own opinions.

I think it's easy for children of narcissists to see the not-as-bad times in childhood (with the exception of the 100% abusive times) and say "but they did this good thing and that good thing" (and people around you will especially point that out), but as we get older and things get worse, we start to recognize that those good things disappeared when we became free thinkers/independent/older kids. As little kids, we KNEW we had to obey; as adults, we started to think "but what you're doing is not ok". In order for them to have control, we were conditioned to believe that "obeying" meant it couldn't be called abuse, because we had to do what they say. But abuse is never justified, no matter what age you are -- there's a difference in obeying what's right/good parents and suffering abuse.

Our schools and churches have failed to teach the difference in obeying good parents vs. speaking up about abuse/recognizing it, because they don't want to face the fact that it happens in what appear to be "good" homes. I'm not saying toddler (and surrounding age range) sunday school class should involve abuse talk, but older kids classes should (especially when talking about peer pressure -- they need to include family/abuse talk in that), and schools definitely should from the very beginning. We need to encourage our sunday school teachers of the older aged kids to include talks that are not only about our own actions but also how others treat us -- that "do unto others" is a perfect catalyst for an abuse prevention/awareness discussion. But good luck trying that in churches located in the Bible Belt, that condone the abuse, particularly the physical -- that being said, it's why people need to be reminded that CONTEXT in the Bible matters because, despite what those church members think, the Bible doesn't teach you to abuse.

[KD5FUL]

For me, I never fully realized how awful my parents' actions were towards me until I became a mother at 32.

It's been incredibly painful and difficult, dealing with that realization. 

Every new milestone my son reaches, every new thing he does...I cannot help but think how my parents reacted or would have reacted toward me in that situation. 

I feel heartbroken for my younger self, she deserved so much love and so much attention.

However, I feel enormously satisfied that my son is such a happy, healthy child; Something that I never had an opportunity to be.

I don't have any advice, I just wanted to say that I empathize with you and have had a similar experience.

[NotCryingGlitter]

For me, I never fully realized how awful my parents' actions were towards me until I became a mother at 32.

It's been incredibly painful and difficult, dealing with that realization. 

Every new milestone my son reaches, every new thing he does...I cannot help but think how my parents reacted or would have reacted toward me in that situation. 

I feel heartbroken for my younger self, she deserved so much love and so much attention.

However, I feel enormously satisfied that my son is such a happy, healthy child; Something that I never had an opportunity to be.

I don't have any advice, I just wanted to say that I empathize with you and have had a similar experience.

Be proud of yourself for giving your son the love you deserved; put any pain and grief from the missing piece into loving him more and more everyday and teaching him that love, to pass onto his children.

In my experience, the way I find any sort of comfort for the future is knowing that the cycle ends with me, that I will make sure my kids have everything that I didn't and more.

[Happypants]

Hi Sheppane. Thanks for posting this.  I really feel very much the same when I think back to my childhood and find it all very confusing when trying to validate my current feelings and situation with my FOO.

There was a lot of warmth and hilarity in our house growing up.  My father (vulnerable narc traits) was always very affectionate although was prone to stress and anger, but kept the momentum going with regards to humour.  My mother, who is now a mystery to me, was a very involved mother although never showed affection physically or verbally.  Growing from adolescence and into a more female being, becoming independent in thought, differentiating and progressing through further education brought out a different side of both my parents.  At the same time, my brother entered the same career as my father.  I can't identify our roles before then (I sometimes played the clown to my dad's humour, my brother was quiet as an adolescent), but since then, my brother has been GC and I've been SG.  The roles became deep and inescapable when my brother became a parent and I didn't.  He has very much followed in my fathers footsteps in so many ways while I live a very different life and don't hold the same values as them. 

I'm still in touch (lowish contact - certainly less than they expect!) despite my parents simultaneously trying to pull me back in and push back against my boundaries at the same time.  I don't feel unconditional love from my mother.  I feel warmth from my father, albeit tinged with contempt and interspersed with attempts at gaining supply through passive aggressive comments. 

I can only say, I try not to dwell too much on whether my childhood was "bad" or not.  I've been exploring the possibility that I may have C-PTSD and often end up giving up whatever I'm reading or listening to in my research as the childhood component is focused on a lot - frankly, if I have been programmed by my family system, there are a lot things that wouldn't have stood out back then enough for me to remember, or I may be blocking out some memories.  All I know is that what I deal with NOW isn't normal, healthy or mutually supportive and I need to pay attention to that.  More importantly, I now know that even when I do what they want/expect, look for their approval, agree with their opinions, involve them in my decisions, generally be what they need me to be in general, there's still no mutual respect or support.  I serve a purpose to them.  I hope that helps x

[Sheppane]

Thank you all for your very helpful replies I found it very calming reading them and feel less alone.

I think the point is I find it hard to look at the current reality and validate my feelings about it without instantly jumping to " it's not THAT bad ". The voice of guilt and self doubt is ever present,  ready to pounce. Which is made even more confusing when I reflect on happy childhood memories. It feels like two separate lives. Back when there was warmth and belonging ( aswell as FOG) and now when it is mostly FOG and little to no warmth and belonging. And the feeling that I have caused this reality. Deep down I don't think I have,  and when I objectively look at the effort in the relationship as I said before it all comes from my side. Yet I know the narrative is that Sheppane doesn't bother and Sheppane doesn't care. But I think if that happened with any of my adult children I wouldn't just drop the rope. In a way they ( my FOO ) are already doing NC to me ..almost like it crept into the relationship without anyone noticing.

It's Mom's birthday next week now too. The last interaction I had with her was full of conflict  - to do with a boundary I gave her - she pushed back with passive agressive barely suppressed rage and then wouldn't speak to me. That was a month ago and I have had no contact since. What do I do now? Ignore / rug sweep and call with gift on birthday ? Ignore birthday ( not a good call ). Try and bring it up and risk DARVO ? Impossible to know where to turn. It seems there is no right answer. I didn't call her after the event because in some way I know she probably wants me to ( though I don't need to apologise for boundary she would expect I should). So it would unravel into her guilting me for her behaviour / response to my boundary. I don't know what to do.

And I guess that's because none of this is healthy. I feel if I could get past the self doubt and guilt piece it would be very freeing. Because then I could just say " here we go again , this is what happens " with more acceptance.

So why the guilt ? I know at one level I am not to blame for the wider FOO dynamic but a large part of me can't help but feel some measure of guilt about it. Guilt when I set a boundary (? Too harsh ) guilt around how I communicate a message ( did I say that with the wrong tone?) . Guilt at the accusations which are partially true ( ie that I don't call enough).

It might be because as a child I felt overly responsible for other people's feelings. So if others were sad - I could fix and make them happy. Huge power for a child. So in some way I have always connected others feelings being linked in with some action on my part.  That I " caused " their feelings or that I had the power to fix them. Maybe that's why as an adult when they have their feelings about me ( that I have abandoned them etc ) that I do not find it easy to just look at it and say " it's just a feeling- their feeling - and that does not mean I caused it , or it is factually true ". I would love to be able to release that pattern. Make it matter less how others think / feel about my behaviour in the relationship. Just act with integrity from my side and leave it at that with no loops of ruminating and self doubt.

Not sure I've put that very well but maybe someone might relate.

Thanks everyone.

[p123]

Same with me. When I was a kid I didn't notice-  looking back now I realise  how badly Dad treated me.

Even until I had my own kids I didn't realise. I guess as Dad got older, he got more needy and selfish - with my own kids I had less time so it started to become apparent how difficult he was. It went on for years where he'd upset my wife, do something selfish and it just built and built. Then one day I realised he was pretty much trying to get me divorced (yeh honesly) because he wanted me to move back in with him.

So I stopped that. Fell out with brother (we still dont speak) because all he did was enable Dad.

Dad moved on to a few other people. Lost friends because of the way he treats people. I still see him but its on my terms and my family comes first - still a constant push from him though.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi again Sheppane,

I hear ya. It makes sense to me that some of this is coming up because your mom's birthday is around the corner.

Have you read the book "Adult children of emotionally immature parents"? It does a good job explaining why things have changed for us, as adult children of the emotionally immature. Back when we were in our childhood, it may have been easier for them to manage things. But emotionally immature parents have a very hard time understanding their grown up children. Which is probably why we get their anger and rage or passive aggression thrown at us. They are lost, and that is on them.

No matter what you do for your parent's birthday - if they are emotionally immature, it won't be enough.

My uPDf is emotionally immature. I think he wanted his birthday to feel like he's the kid again. It is not in my realm to provide him with these experiences. As my parent, he was supposed to be the one to nurture me, not the other way around.

Once I hit adulthood, his backwards way of thinking became a problem that I could finally address. As a kid I was stuck dealing with him but as an adult, I could let him go to figure out his own issues he had around his birthday.

The reason you know that you won't behave like this when your kids are grown is because you are not emotionally immature.

Because you are capable of reflection and mature problem solving,  you'll be equipped to manage a healthy dynamic with your adult children. You'll be supportive and kind, and you will be happy to see them express their own needs and identities and independent thought. My emotionally immature parents can't do that. They are just not equipped to respect the decisions made by their now adult children.

Re her birthday: like you said, there's no right answer. Whatever you do, just prepare yourself and take care of yourself afterwards. Narcissistic parents are notorious for projecting all of their expectations on us when it is their birthday. We're supposed to 'make' them happy. But actually, as adults, our happiness is our responsibility. Emotionally immature parents tend to blame others and tend to get angry at others for things that have upset them. It is one of the signs that someone is emotionally immature. Instead of looking at the problems in their life from a mature stance, they hold an immature view of the issues that face them as they age.

Just know that you, Sheppane, are not going to be like this with your kids. You have insight. When parents have insight, they are capable of much better relationships with their own children - across any age and stage.

Trees

[Sheppane]

Thank you p123 and Trees.

No I haven't read that book and maybe I will now. That's interesting the idea that in childhood it may have been easier for them to relate. The only thing against that is that they don't seem to have difficulty relating to my siblings. One is a bit more distant and the other is definite GC. But I guess that's more of emotional immaturity too, being disappointed and disapproving of one adult child and showering the other with affection. It's all so crazy making. I wish I could let go of the idea that its my fault,  even if only partially so. Thanks for your replies.

[moglow]

Sheppane, this is hard stuff, feeling that no matter what we do it's never "enough." Good bad or indifferent, their expectations are spewed all over us and we're somehow found wanting. I've had a hard time looking at a. what I want / want to do, and b. standing behind that without apology. I still guilt myself all along but nothing like I used to, and other people's guilt trips don't affect me as much either - but like I've said before, it's a process.

For me, it all didn't really hit until later simply because I was in survival mode. In mother's house I was a convenient and necessary target, and fairly isolated too. Once I moved out I watched and was around other families more, and after a while I realized just how abnormal our relationship really was. "Normal" for me wasn't at all what I saw around me but I still never pushed back or tried to assert myself. I was still being told by her and everyone else what I must do because she's the mother and all she went through etc. Nobody ever pointed out that she had any responsibility for herself or her life - I must step in and fix and do for her, she came first always.

I hit a hard wall a few years back with the whole birthday thing. If I called she complained that I didn't send a card, send a card [and omg the drama over "not enough" card, generic or unsentimental!] but why didn't i call or text, text was just NOT ENOUGH period. I get it - she wants accolades and all the bells and whistles. My birthdays? I might get a text or call from her then a repeat when she claimed she didn't get my response, I must acknowledge every call and text and card etc AND in the way she thought I should [those "shoulds" again]. I finally drew a line in my head - I send a card, call her only if I have something to actually say. I'd had enough of being second guessed and her being all distraught over what others did/didn't do. I can only manage and control me [as it should be!], she gets what she gets and life goes on.

[Sheppane]

" I've had a hard time looking at a. what I want / want to do, and b. standing behind that without apology."

Yes Moglow !!! This exactly. Especially the first part. I think because the conditioning has made us look at it through the other person's eyes. I always feel a bit stunned when asked in this particular situation ie birthday should I call or not when someone asks " what do YOU want to do "..
I often really don't know. But it feels like what I want to do is do the thing that doesn't send me into a tailspin and guilt spiral and spinning for another week after the event. Or reeling from the after effects of passive aggression , judgement, silent treatment or whatever the flavour of the day might be. Who knows. Basically the risk that it could be any of the above. Or the confusion if its all nice and sweet again. So that's why I never know what I want because the true answer is I want the option that causes me least harm. That says a lot I guess 

At times like this revisiting happier times in the past often causes me more confusion. So I think my new insight will be I will no longer revisit these memories or when I do I will leave them there , in the past. Because my relationship with FOO is happening in the present and that's what I should judge it on,  the actions of the present.

[monamurre]

I've been meaning to respond to your post for over a week because every single thing you wrote rings true for me. EVERY. SINGLE. THING. I too struggle with reconciling a complex relationship with my mother. What I have found is that it doesn't have to be a single narrative. Here is a little more detail...

I am the only child of a single working mom so I grew up with the narrative that my mom was the self-sacrificing parent who was doing things right, while my dad was a selfish twat who left us. With decades of distance I am now reframing this in my own mind. My dad moved 30 minutes away, paid child support, and continued to see me weekly. He wasn't the greatest and could definitely be selfish but my  mom's black and white thinking didn't allow for any nuance. He was bad, she was good.

Well, yes, she was my main provider, the person putting a roof over my head, food on the table, made sure I got to school and even drove me to dance lessons. All true. She was also the person who hit me, scorned me, mocked me and discarded me when I didn't agree with her world view. Both of those things are true and one doesn't eclipse the other.

I also know that her behavior devolved as I got older. Her physical health declined, she became more isolated, and her mental health started to decline as well. This made the "BPD episodes" more frequent and dramatic. By the time I was in my 40's she had devolved into an angry toddler during most of our interactions and it was beyond clear that something was really wrong with her. Up until then I had a hard time admitting that to myself because of all the good stuff....I would get stuck asking myself, how can she be bad if she spent so much time taking care of my daughter while I starting my business? How can I be mad at her when she was my main caregiver as a child? When she struggled so much with poverty, her health, etc.? Well, the answer is that it isn't one or the other. She was all of those things.

The bottom line for me was this: No matter how good parent you were, or how hard a road you had, it does not excuse being abusive to your kid. Full stop. People make mistakes, yes. And mature adults apologize when they make mistakes. Had my mom addressed these abusive episodes with me, apologized and explained that she was struggling, I would have been a lot more forgiving of the mistakes. But, she never did.

A word of warning, I don't know your situation, but I want to tell you that in my experience, the older my mom got, the more her faculties failed, and the closer she got to death, the nastier she got. Thinking about your own death is the ultimate "uncomfortable feeling" and BPD don't handle uncomfortable feelings with grace. By the end of her life I felt that my mom was a vastly different person than I remembered from my teenage years when I would have called us "close" (despite the periodic abuse going on then). This I partly because I was in the fog and didn't know better when I was young and partly because her behavior got worse as I got older.

I sympathize with your struggle around this. It is truly bizarre to reach such a different perspective on your own life.