Re: are you ever the one who starts conflicts?

[Forgotnameandaddress]

I am beginning to realise that whenever things have gone wrong with me and my  unnpd they always seem to be because of something I have done or said or not done. I don't think I have ever started a conflict. She is always the victim, the poor abused partner, the one who I have criticised, the one I have lied about and lied to. She does really love being the centre of things, she loves entertaining but there is always at the end of parties an awful time when iim told what I did wrong.  It is a relief if I haven't.
Does anyone recognise these?

The trouble is I don't remember what I said most of the time, so things get twisted and changed, so my reality gets blurry and I can't defend myself. It's gets turned on it's head everything I thought is then upside down.

[SonofThunder]

Hello Forgetname,

Here are links for two of the top 100 traits you describe.  Imo, consider spending some time browsing all the 100 traits, clicking on the terms and reading their descriptions.  When you experience behaviors, such as you described, go first to the traits list, find the matching behavior and journal your experience related to the trait description. You may find some repetitiveness in your journaled experiences. 

All of us here deal with a variety of these top 100 trait behaviors with the PD people in our lives, and projection and false accusation are very common.  PD's all seem to use the same playbook, therefore you are truly not alone in your experiences.

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/projection

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/false-accusations-and-distortion-campaigns

Cheers,

SoT

[Forgotnameandaddress]

SoT,
Thank you  so much, I did as you suggested, and wrote down and compared  and reflected back over the years we have been together, ( a lot). There were a great amount of Aha moments. I found myself going through situations I had either brushed off or thought they didn't count or thought were normal  for all relationships, but always left me feeling guilty, lost and or afraid and responsible.

So much confusion, so many times agonizing over what I had said or done to upset them this time, so much alienation. The very slight suggestion of therapy being doused with vitriol and threats. It was all there. The inconsistencies but also the long times where it has felt and been really good, but Im beginning to see those were only when I was behaving or at least playing the game. Not sure exactly what all the rules were or even are. I recognize the cycle, those times when I have stopped being so vigilant about what I say or do, those times Ive been more relaxed and I do something  then the boom/ explosion and it starts again. I think the very inconsistency is power in itself as its so unsettling and  painful

[SonofThunder]

SoT,
Thank you  so much, I did as you suggested, and wrote down and compared  and reflected back over the years we have been together, ( a lot). There were a great amount of Aha moments. I found myself going through situations I had either brushed off or thought they didn't count or thought were normal  for all relationships, but always left me feeling guilty, lost and or afraid and responsible.

So much confusion, so many times agonizing over what I had said or done to upset them this time, so much alienation. The very slight suggestion of therapy being doused with vitriol and threats. It was all there. The inconsistencies but also the long times where it has felt and been really good, but Im beginning to see those were only when I was behaving or at least playing the game. Not sure exactly what all the rules were or even are. I recognize the cycle, those times when I have stopped being so vigilant about what I say or do, those times Ive been more relaxed and I do something  then the boom/ explosion and it starts again. I think the very inconsistency is power in itself as its so unsettling and  painful

Hello again Forgotnameandaddress,

You well-describe, using your experiences, the interplay which the PD utilizes between the Karpman drama 🔺roles of Persecutor, Victim & Rescuer, and the much larger IDD cycle of Idealize, Devaluation and Discard. 

As you may read in the many experiences discussed here on the forum among your Out of the FOG comrades, the non-PD is the true victim and typically (while living in the fog of fear, obligation and guilt), do not make it to the last D=discard in the IDD cycle.

Reason is, that in the manipulative, confusing, foggy experiences of being idealized when compliant, and then oppositely devalued (manipulated and emotionally, verbally, sexually, financially and sometimes physically abused) when the non is never able to satisfy the PD, the non-PD simply caves to the PD's exhausting goal-post-moving demands, and earns the prize of idealization once again from the PD; praise for a  job well done. Many non's experience ID-ID-ID... wash, rinse, repeat. 

Imo, the 🔺drama triangle roles happen within the IDD cycle to set the stage in those frequent drama circumstances to achieve the larger IDD goals for the PD.  Ultimately, I believe the PD stakes down a permanent tent in the victim role of the 🔺and ventures out for bursts of persecution and sometimes even attempted rescuer roles, all geared to flip the script so the non-PD becomes the persecutor so that the PD can return back to comfortable home base in the victim role. Over and over, the drama 🔺 plays out as a tool to wear down the non, so they comply with a much larger objective in the IDD cycle and once again return to the cycle's beginning and become idealized once more. 

Once a non-PD such as yourself, becomes educated, experienced and the fog lifts, we begin to understand this interplay.  Your going through the 100 traits and aligning them with experiences is not a joyful exercise, but a necessary experience imo, in order to comprehend our past experiences, therefore understanding our present and potentially future experiences as well.

The toolbox tab to the right of the personality disorders tab, is a crucial step for the non to begin utilizing in self protection. The tools are difficult to deploy.  We are in a battle of self-protection, and I do not recommend sharing our battle plans, but treat them as a most precious secret resource to position ourselves steadily into a better protected state.  Those tools require thick skin, a steeled backbone and unwavering determination to understand our adult rights and our ability to protect ourselves to the full extent within the bounds of ethics and law. 

Again, I commend you for doing that 100 traits exercise and although difficult, I believe it is a very good educator that lifts us further Out of the FOG, and down a hopeful path of better self-protection going forward. 

For more on the IDD cycle, you may enjoy the gifted Dr. Ramani.  Below are two YouTube links. The first is about the cycle and the second is a series on many of those traits/terminology in which you just read.  I always recommend doing all reading, watching, learning and journaling in total privacy as you shield your battle plans, holding your cards very close.  Cheers to you my comrade.

SoT

Dr Ramani on Devalue and Discard Cycles.
https://youtu.be/Oik4IsgQ4uk

Dr. Ramani: Glossary of Narcissistic Relationships.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3QtnfcMTMhEfRXN-Kk2vndn89nBZxKUj

[Blueberry Pancakes]

Hi Forget - and yes. My conflicts with others start when someone approaches me with either great anger or a cool and superior attitude. Unknown to me, I have already been accused, tried and found guilty and they are delivering my punishment. There is nothing I can say, their judgement is final. Also, their 'punishment' is always too extreme for whatever my mis-deed was.

I am not sure we can make sense of it because it is indeed something they have conjured up to fit their current need or mood. You can start walking on egg-shells, become hyper vigilant, and lose yourself trying to please someone who is determined to find fault. I do not think this is about you, but instead about them.   
   
I think you have gotten good advice here with the links and Toolbox. I think knowledge of such dynamics and awareness can be a hugely useful ally.

[Forgotnameandaddress]

Thank you SoT I will look at the links when I am alone and private, I am kind of left with a fear of discovery!

It is really weird because when I left her this morning ( she has COVID ,) she was actually pleasant and I got a message asking for me to buy her some medication on the way home, then says she loves me! Alongside this though is a criticism about how I left her a mess to clean up.

Beginning to feel its breadcrumbs with poison. The trouble is I could  feel my desperation and a sense of relief as I played the message, how pathetic to be relieved for the breadcrumbs, even knowing it's a trap.

Blueberry, thats exactly how it feels,  judgement, with no way out.

[Forgotnameandaddress]

I have been looking at our history over the years and wondering if it is all an illusion, it seemed really like love, it felt like it, it was really good when I didn't upset them. And there it is, "didn't upset them", everything arranged not to upset them, I feel like I'm in an alternate reality. Here I can see it and accept it, at home I don't want to believe it, at home I just want it back to when it was good.

I'm even going right back to all the stories about their exes, was any of that true? I believed it all, when I think back to the timings, I was there at the right time for them, they were in the discarding phase with their ex, I was there New Supply, and boy was I stupid, sooo many times I could have walked away and I didn't,  fell for it all, it was always me that was wrong, I suppressed any internal denials ( And there were!)  It's a sort of living grief, they are holding out a carrot, the previous love and caring versus this coldness and distance. But the distance is only partial, there are small glimpses of kndness then its all withdrawn again. Its totally  unsettling and hard to see clearly.

[SonofThunder]

I have been looking at our history over the years and wondering if it is all an illusion, it seemed really like love, it felt like it, it was really good when I didn't upset them. And there it is, "didn't upset them", everything arranged not to upset them, I feel like I'm in an alternate reality. Here I can see it and accept it, at home I don't want to believe it, at home I just want it back to when it was good.

I'm even going right back to all the stories about their exes, was any of that true? I believed it all, when I think back to the timings, I was there at the right time for them, they were in the discarding phase with their ex, I was there New Supply, and boy was I stupid, sooo many times I could have walked away and I didn't,  fell for it all, it was always me that was wrong, I suppressed any internal denials ( And there were!)  It's a sort of living grief, they are holding out a carrot, the previous love and caring versus this coldness and distance. But the distance is only partial, there are small glimpses of kndness then its all withdrawn again. Its totally  unsettling and hard to see clearly.

Forgetname,

Know you are not alone is what you describe; what you are feeling.  Imo, its all part of the realization of your steadily coming out of that F.O.G.  The fear, obligation and guilt is a role you play as part of the larger 'self' motive of the PD.  We non's are simply an emotional host because PD's dont host their own.

The timing with the exe's is because imo, Fear of Abandonment (FoA) is a foundational trait.  When fissures appear, FoA lava upwells toward the surface for the PD and they cap-off the fissure with another host before that FoA eruption occurs.  Motive is everything.

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/fear-of-abandonment

SoT

[Forgotnameandaddress]

SoT , Thank You, I have just read the fear of abandonment, this makes Sense! Not only was I going against the rules of speaking to a therapist or rather possible therapist, I have also found a friend I thought I had lost touch with!

Her reaction to their fear of abandonment seems to be an intensity of accusation, a total withdrawal of intimacy, complete blaming and abdication of any responsibility. There has also, before, been the " you will never be able to manage anything without me". the " I made you," "I hate myself for wanting you"

It is intense and exhausting and stressful. My past reaction has been, not to see the friend, to not contact the professional support and to try to convince her that I'm not the horrific monster she thinks I am.

Im feeling guilty, fearful of the reaction, fearful of the distance, and  the possible loneliness now that I am not begging for forgiveness.

[easterncappy]

I'm not saying I'm some sort of perfect, wonderful person with absolutely immaculate self-control - but, I'm realizing I was not the troublemaker that my parents made me out to be.

My likely antisocial PD dad used to love riling me up, until I was the first person who yelled or said something explicitly ugly.

There was also the pattern of: get treated poorly but not in an outwardly aggressive way, question why this is happening or state that I don't like it, suddenly I've "started a conflict" and am "playing tough and being unpleasant"!  There were many situations where I was forced to "apologize" for being abused, because I was supposed to just sit there and take it, but as I got old enough I did indeed at least try to stand up for myself.

So, often, we are not starting a conflict at all. We are provoked until we give a reasonable response, which is then amplified to seem like The Worst Thing Ever.

[moglow]

Forgotnameandaddress, I'm a firm believer at this point that for the most part we choose who we are. There's a certain amount of nature and predispositions, yes, but at the end of the day we choose how we respond to people and situations around us. I believe there are some -like my mother and possibly your partner- who choose their mads. You can tippy toe around and make everything fluffy and soft around them, and they find that one missed corner. That one misspoken or careless word. That apology that wasn't "enough." Mother is a master at it, and woe betide the one who "let her down." So many unspoken expectations of others, the mind spins with it.

As mentioned, it IS exhausting and stressful, the constant walking on eggshells and fear of that anvil dangling somewhere above. The only consistency in my relationship with mother was the sheer inconsistency of her moods. She'd get mad if I didn't somehow know why she was mad, she'd get mad if I was prepared for it. She was mad if I was too loud, just as mad if I retreated to read quietly by myself. Most of the time in just about every interaction with her, I felt I was doomed if I did/doomed if I didn't. And she'd blame whoever was at hand when she finally blew - THEY were the problem! They MADE her xyz! Not one whit of responsibility for herself and her own stuff.

[Jolie40]

Being the scapegoat, I was always blamed for conflicts.
My family all went to group counseling when I was a teen. The counselor recognized & said "I was the scapegoat".
Did anything change after counseling? No.

One of my siblings, who was extremely close to PD parent, has picked up on treating me as scapegoat.
There was a family meeting few years ago about Christmas. We couldn't go since our kid had a recital. After meeting, this sibling called me & blamed ME for the changes made at meeting!

How was I to be blamed when I wasn't even at meeting?!