Active Listening Improvement

[SonofThunder]

Hello Out of the FOG Comrades,

I am currently reading two books on listening; active listening.  I believe this topic is very important for me in self improvement, as the last five decades have been living with a PD in my daily living, and going forward, much greater reduced time dealing with PD motives. I may have already touched on this subject in another thread, but could not locate quickly, so posting new.

One of the books:  'Active Listening Techniques', states at the front end of chapter 2:

"When we're truly listening to others, we sometimes must- at least momentarily - suspend our own emotional needs. Try thinking of this as putting your own needs on a shelf when you need to listen to someone else."

I personally believe that in my experiences with PD's (prior to coming out of that FOG) this concept is mostly impossible; I believe this is going to be key for me to break through. Imo, PD's hijack our emotions because they cannot host their own.

When I was caretaking PD's, I was their full emotional host; my emotions were not "suspended", but rather discarded and replaced by the needs of the PD.  Similar to a flight to X destination being hijacked by a terrorist and rerouted to the thug's destination. 

After coming out of that FOG, and purposefully ending my caretaking behaviors, those same caretaking behavior-guided conversations became confrontational; short-circuited as my emotional hijacker was met with the changed, undeterred passenger who would not allow the flight to be disrupted.  Any attempt at 'active listening' was impossible for me, in either a hijacked or self-protective state. 

Therefore I find this topic, new territory in my travels. I must put aside my heavily entrenched past, and carve a new trail where I have a safe place to "...suspend our emotional needs" temporarily, to facilitate truly empathetic listening around more emotionally healthy people. I will be required to work hard at rewiring my 24/7 self-protective toolbox listening, to also incorporate a more relaxed, active listening with fellow passengers who are not attempting to hijack my emotions, yet also keeping the toolbox handy if I suddenly find myself around these emotional thugs.  Difficult indeed.

No real questions here for the reader, but rather putting my pondering on the page.

SoT 

[square]

Hi SoT,

Good stuff. Here is my question for you.

From the simple fact that you have been mindfully working on active listening, I can infer that this is a technique that you feel you would benefit from additional skills. In what way do you feel you were previously lacking in this skill with non-hijacking people?

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi SoT,

Thanks for sharing about this really important topic.

I think there is a lot of food for thought here. I like the quote you shared - I think that if more people did this, more friendships would develop in healthy ways.

There are a lot of people out there who want an active listener to listen to them when they speak. True relating requires both people to take the time to listen and to take the time to know what they feel. This is what has been lost when we've endured years of PD abuse within a close relationship (i.e. with a PD spouse or parent).

We all know here on the forum that PD's won't listen to us - except to gather information they can then later use against us.

But the other thing we don't experience with them, is time to know how we feel, so that we are suspending emotions that we can name, and identify, and acknowledge.

PD abuse forces the victim to fully suspend their own emotional needs. It is not as if the PD parent or spouse works to help us get our needs met. They are in a permanent state of denying us our needs. It is not temporary for them.

In my case, I figured this out and it helped me stay NC. It is not as if my PD parents sometimes helped me get my emotional needs met, and sometimes didn't. For them, it was a permanent hijack that they were after. I was to live without ever getting those needs met. Period. To me, this is what PD abuse was.

I am starting to better recognize the cumulative effects on us after years of PD abuse from someone (i.e., partner, parent, sibling, boss, etc...). Everything they do creates our environment and then we habituate to that environment. So if they do not listen to us, then we have spent probably hundreds of hours, in this state of not being listened to. We are creatures who habituate to our surroundings - and that can be good for us or not.

We can habituate to environments where no one is listening to us. This is not good long term, but it is part of our survival system.

After we are away from our PD abuser, we can think about how many hours we spent, habituating to their ways. We have spent those hours not knowing how we feel, because as you wrote, the focus ends up on them, and being a container for their needs and their immature emotional states. They hijack our nervous systems and after a while, we probably live in that state. I think that does describe childhood with a PD parent pretty well actually.

There is a huge cost to us if we have spent years in proximity to someone who had no healthy boundaries with us (which is every PD IMO). And one of those costs is that we didn't get to keep some of our attention on the fact that our emotions matter too, even while we are listening to someone and suspending our own response to our emotional needs temporarily, in order to stay present for the other.

You also mention what happened when you got Out of the FOG, and thus started to prevent the PD spouse from hijacking your system to serve her needs, and the predictable reaction to this.

We can't give people healthy relational experiences - they have to know how to receive them. The PD's I have known, only want supply, not connection. They do not want us to connect with their authentic self, they want us to feed their ego. "Active listening" that goes both ways, is not possible with them.

It goes even deeper....The PD abusers I have known, would tell me that I did not have emotional needs. Therefore, if I were to develop the ability to manage my response to my needs (as you are learning in that book) the whole topic is moot to them because I don't have needs in the first place! PD abuse is nothing if not crazy making!!

I learned, pretty late in life, to test the waters with new people, by talking about my emotional needs. Their reaction, told me a lot about whether they see me as someone with valid emotional needs, or if they cannot. I do not need more experiences where I actively listen to such people, because they will want me to pretend I don't have emotional needs. This is quite different from acknowledging that I do I have emotional needs, that I am choosing to suspend temporarily, in order to be present for them.

I have also found that an effect of years of PD abuse, is not knowing which emotional need we have sometimes. I have read that this is quite common after abuse.

It's so important that we reconnect with our own needs. And know that we can relate to others without a hijacking taking place. I agree with you, this can feel quite tricky. We need to spend time with people who do not want to hijack the situation.

Trees

[SonofThunder]

Hi SoT,

Good stuff. Here is my question for you.

From the simple fact that you have been mindfully working on active listening, I can infer that this is a technique that you feel you would benefit from additional skills. In what way do you feel you were previously lacking in this skill with non-hijacking people?

Hello Square,

Thanks for the engagement and question.  First I may not have been clear on a point I made in my original post. 

Imo, the PD hijacks our emotional space by hitching themselves to us, the host.  Therefore instead of "momentarily suspending" my own emotional needs to truly listen to the PD, I allowed my own emotional needs to be replaced by caretaking the PD, in order to keep peace.  PD's train their host to comply in a manner that meets the needs of the PD or the caretaker faces the 🔺drama.  When I stopped caretaking, the emotional space simply became a PD confrontational and nonPD toolbox controlled space.  It was ME who originally discarded my emotional needs (caretaking) and let the hijackers needs move into the space.  It was ME who kicked the hijacker out and then had to fill that space with toolbox self-protection and high motive radar because the hijacker was still onboard.  I have not had free, trusting safe emotional space in a very long time, and so in my current state of living solo, Im trying to make more room 😂.   

Again, having been raised by a uNPDf and married to a uPDw, I believe I have an engrained habit of my radar being turned up high, as a trained prior caretaker and then trained as a toolbox self-protector. In order for me to be an 'active-listener' imo I'm going to have to trust myself to purposefully turn my self-protective radar down enough to form a safe space for myself to 'suspend my emotions' temporarily to empathetically-listen and not motive-listen.

There are a ton of needer's in the world and not all of them PD's.  I have many people in both my work and personal life who look to me (and a few others I know)  to conversationally and thoughtfully provide, but these needer's do not reciprocate in a similar healthy manner.  I can count on one hand, the number of close family and friends who imo, balance the give/take well. 

Im also an introvert by nature & nurture so I have a tendency to run solo. Yet with those whom I mesh well, we communicate in volume and deeply.  So.... Im taking a very long road to your question. 😂

Answer: My lacking, is not trusting the conversational motives of non-hijackers, therefore Im not empathetically listening well.  My self-protective radar is up so high, that i'm not trusting the other person enough, to safely momentarily suspend my own protective needs, in order to listen.  Reading others writings is different, because Im safe, but face to face is much more vulnerable. 

Imo, the books will be helpful to learn techniques for better listening and deeper connections with future emotionally safe people, but I first have to practice letting my self-protective guard down as well, which these books do not really address, as they are not about that subject. 

I believe I will absorb these techniques educationally, but practically, they will take time.  I am being gentle on myself in accepting my opinion about myself, and am purposefully (almost daily) putting myself in face to face conversations with total strangers in everyday solo living, in order to practice active listening, and lowering my radar.  Its very difficult 😂 and I fail miserably many times by talking on top of the speaker or letting my mind monitor my motive-radar and not actually listening well.  I am being mindful of my failures and reviewing the conversations to find areas of improvement. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

+ 1 to Trees post.

Trees, thanks for all that experiential input to the thread! 

You wrote:

"It goes even deeper....The PD abusers I have known, would tell me that I did not have emotional needs. Therefore, if I were to develop the ability to manage my response to my needs (as you are learning in that book) the whole topic is moot to them because I don't have needs in the first place!"

👆🏼That right there is my childhood with a uNPDf and a caretaker, enabling, flying-monkey mother.

You wrote:

"I have also found that an effect of years of PD abuse, is not knowing which emotional need we have sometimes."

I agree. Since active listening requires me to temporarily suspend, I first need to have a good grip on what I am suspending. 😏😂 If I truly am not able to suspend, then any emotional needs of mine just remain in the space and in the way of my truly empathetic listening.  Lol, I think I just discarded my emotional needs for the previous hijackers, and then when I finally booted the hijacker out of my emotional space (thanks toolbox! thanks indifference!), I just made room for a super-high definition radar instead.  Now... where did I put my emotional needs? 🤔

SoT

[square]

Thanks, SoT, I think that thoroughly answered my question.

"Reading others writings is different, because Im safe, but face to face is much more vulnerable."

"...talking on top of the speaker or letting my mind monitor my motive-radar and not actually listening well. "

Those two quotes cleared up some specific questions.

When you speak over others, what do you think is going on inside you? How does speaking over them meet (superficially, at least) your needs for safety?

As for monitoring motives, I do that with those people I consider a threat, and to a lesser extent I have trained myself to be more witholding with those I do not know well (I'm a naturally trusting person). Do you find yourself continuing to monitor motives of people with whom you have some background and who have not yet tripped any alarm bells for you?

[SonofThunder]

SoT,

Something that struck me in what you said in the original post: suspending your own emotions to listen to the other person requires a huge amount of trust. You have to trust that you will not be taken advantage of, and that it's a safe environment to suspend yourself in that way. It's extremely vulnerable. I imagine it like putting your hand out to touch a dog, trusting it won't bite you in the process. Obviously being with a PD does not help us in this regard, because we're so used to being "bitten" when we put ourselves out there.

I have a couple people in my life who I feel safe enough to do active listening with, and the way I would describe it is, I almost forget myself entirely. It's like I'm suspending my own desires, needs, thought patterns to fully take in what they are saying. But I trust that they won't take advantage of this, and eventually they will circle around and want to do the same thing for me...another thing that you'll never get with a PD.

user

Hi user,

Thanks for the input to the thread. +1 to the dog analogy and yes, a PD seems to bite every time! 

Thats interesting regarding your writing:   

"the way I would describe it is, I almost forget myself entirely.". 

Im happy to read you have those kind of connections!  In the foggy years, I allowed my stbx to do such a thorough job of alienating me from the friends I had back in the 1980's, and they were slowly replaced with the male spouses of her female friends. These gentleman are very kind, but their wives are my stbx's girlfriends so that's always been a no-go. Otherwise most other acquaintances have either a work or family connection, so Ive simply stayed high-radar and guarded for a very long time.

Circling my wagon back around to active listening, I find the topic to be fascinating as a part of my healing process, and very much an educational and practice + experience success challenge, similar to the toolbox.  Since my steady toolbox education and application has positively progressed for me over my years here at Out of the FOG, I am confident I can become an active listener. 

I will learn to trust, while turning down my radar enough to make new friends in new circles, in new geographical places, along my future daydream travels that will hopefully be a coming reality.  I will find new friends in which I can both safeguard my emotional needs from attempted hijackers and needers, temporarily suspend my own to empathetically listen to another's, and then allow myself to share in times when I need to bend their ear a little. I will do this with both males and females in my life ahead. 

Thanks again for sharing. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Thanks, SoT, I think that thoroughly answered my question.

"Reading others writings is different, because Im safe, but face to face is much more vulnerable."

"...talking on top of the speaker or letting my mind monitor my motive-radar and not actually listening well. "

Those two quotes cleared up some specific questions.

When you speak over others, what do you think is going on inside you? How does speaking over them meet (superficially, at least) your needs for safety?

As for monitoring motives, I do that with those people I consider a threat, and to a lesser extent I have trained myself to be more witholding with those I do not know well (I'm a naturally trusting person). Do you find yourself continuing to monitor motives of people with whom you have some background and who have not yet tripped any alarm bells for you?

Hi Square,

You are asking excellent questions in your active reading!  Answers below!

A: I believe my responding over the safe speaker is me allowing my mind to prepare a continuation of the subject in advance, as they speak vs allowing them to fully finish their train of thought, fully absorbing what they said, validating their speaking and then (just as you are doing with me now) responding to assist in expanding their own thoughts. With PD's, any thought of empathy-absorbing must be replaced by me with high-radar observing/processing, or pay the 🔺consequences for not having done so.   

In similar ways, I do the same here on Out of the FOG, inserting my opinions, experiences and ideas vs more asking creative questions to expand on the writers thoughts, even if I may have experiences which could be beneficial.  It may be further assistance to do more of what you are doing, in a proactive writing practice on other comrade's threads, which will be better active-reading practice, helping to assist my active-listening learning progression in my face-to-face conversations and phone calls.

I am also now practicing when face to face or on phone calls, being ok with silence in between sentences. With my PD's I have had to be toolbox-processing the words being spoken to me, because those words are saturated with PD motive and creative covert manipulation.

Ime, noJADE, MC and proper, effective boundaries, takes rapid multitasking of listening + thinking combo's, and any silence has to be self-designed purposefully, on the fly to achieve toolbox goals, not empathetically listen. Ime, my empathy is hijacked by my PD's and then drama 🔺flipped. Therefore any positive reasons for silence between sentences with potential safe people is something new. 

B: Yes, my monitoring radar is high no matter whom I'm with. I also believe that my INTJ traits feed an active radar as well.  You wrote that you are a naturally trusting person. I am not, and probably for a variety of reasons, both for PD reasons but also from being backstabbed by needy employees who attempt to take advantage of my leadership position, and also by my customers and suppliers. Im self-employed and some of my business segments in which I operate, have been very cutthroat and motive devious. Ive had plenty of those three (employees,customers, suppliers) facade at first as friendly and team-mentality, only to expose the opposite motives later in the beneficial timing they arranged.

SoT

[SonofThunder]

As for monitoring motives, I do that with those people I consider a threat, and to a lesser extent I have trained myself to be more witholding with those I do not know well (I'm a naturally trusting person).

Square,

This comment about yourself, in the above quoted section is interesting and I may need some clarifying to understand more about you.  The two main subjects (other than yourself) in your sentence are "those people I consider a threat" and "those I do not know well" .  You also mentioned you are a trusting person.

Do you mostly trust those at first with whom you dont know well, potentially sharing vulnerably with them, until they prove themselves threatening? 

If yes, have you experienced your trusting vulnerability something you regret sharing if that person has turned out later to be threatening?

If no, then I may be misunderstanding what you wrote about being a trusting person and the subsequent withholding/not-withholding. 

SoT

[notrightinthehead]

SoT,  I see you practice your active listening/reading  here too.
The way I listen actively is,  I leave my feelings and own difficulties like a coat and shoes in the wardrobe and enter another person's room. We then both focus on them, their feelings, their thoughts, their solutions. I can immerse myself in their problem with all  empathy, thinking, problem solving skills I am capable of, while my own feelings, sensitivities, difficulties are safely tucked away in the wardrobe. When I leave the room, I put on my coat and shoes, I leave behind the other person's space, problems, feelings, and take up  my own life again. It requires to repeatedly make myself aware what is mine and what is yours and lots of mindfulness meditation.
I have noticed that amongst others, good salespeople do that too. It's a skill that can be found in many  aspects of life.

[SonofThunder]

SoT,  I see you practice your active listening/reading  here too.
The way I listen actively is,  I leave my feelings and own difficulties like a coat and shoes in the wardrobe and enter another person's room. We then both focus on them, their feelings, their thoughts, their solutions. I can immerse myself in their problem with all  empathy, thinking, problem solving skills I am capable of, while my own feelings, sensitivities, difficulties are safely tucked away in the wardrobe. When I leave the room, I put on my coat and shoes, I leave behind the other person's space, problems, feelings, and take up  my own life again. It requires to repeatedly make myself aware what is mine and what is yours and lots of mindfulness meditation.
I have noticed that amongst others, good salespeople do that too. It's a skill that can be found in many  aspects of life.

Hello notrightinthehead,

Thank you much for your input on the thread. I love the wardrobe analogy and it's so wonderful that you are able to safely tuck away your feelings and difficulties, focusing your attention on the other person.  I look forward to improvement in this area which allows me to do the same and I will think about the mental-picture of the wardrobe.

The books also mention what you wrote about benefits in other aspects of life, such as in business. Thanks for mentioning the additional positives of the self-improvement. 

You wrote:

"It requires to repeatedly make myself aware what is mine and what is yours and lots of mindfulness meditation."

Is that something you are able to do in the moment during face-to-face or on a phone call, or describing a mindfulness mediation you do in your own time as practice to prepare for live interactions?

SoT

[bloomie]

SOT - this is a great subject and an awesome thread. So much to think about.

I have been on the receiving end of monologuing in so many primary relationships for as far back as I can recollect. I admit, I can see how I have, both by nature and nurture, most often set my own needs and emotions on the shelf when engaging in conversations with others. A default position is to actively listen, and listen some more. Engage, ask questions, offer support. And repeat this cycle with some in my circle until my ears are bleeding (metaphorically) and I am drained.  I think I may be a chronic active listener to my own detriment.

So often, having a sober self assessment is taking what I see as an extreme and finding balance in that area. Active listening is a profoundly important focus and a worthy area of self reflection and growth. Bravo for so deeply caring about developing better ways of building trusting, caring connections with others. Both the learning to actively listen and learning to have reasonable expectations for reciprocity in primary relationships is so important. Learning to expect to be heard and equally considered even some of the time is the current challenge for me. That's a start!

Thank you for explaining how high your radar is and why. I have one relationship that has been so painful for me that I can now recognize how hard it is for me to hear what this person is saying because, like you describe, I am in such a constant state of hyper vigilance and in a protective posture.  Always filtering and testing their words against their actions. Trust has been near destroyed between us, and yet this is a person who seems sincerely intent on cleaning up the messes between us. Lowering my guard at all is very hard, in part, because that guard and protective stance was so hard won and so essential to my emotional and spiritual survival. I confess, I do not know if I will ever fully be able to trust enough to even believe much of what they are saying is true, sincere, trustworthy. Which makes listening to their words excruciating at times. It's very sad to hold that view of a beloved family member. I know the struggle and pain of this is not news to anyone here or unique to me in any way.

The way I listen actively is,  I leave my feelings and own difficulties like a coat and shoes in the wardrobe and enter another person's room. We then both focus on them, their feelings, their thoughts, their solutions. I can immerse myself in their problem with all  empathy, thinking, problem solving skills I am capable of, while my own feelings, sensitivities, difficulties are safely tucked away in the wardrobe. When I leave the room, I put on my coat and shoes, I leave behind the other person's space, problems, feelings, and take up  my own life again. It requires to repeatedly make myself aware what is mine and what is yours and lots of mindfulness meditation.

This is very helpful to me. Thank you notright for sharing this way of authentically engaging and keeping healthy inner boundaries around what is yours/what is others. The entering and exiting also suggest a beginning and an end and a leaving another's stuff with them after having offered the kindest of gifts we can to another... active listening and sincere support.

SOT you are a great example of paying close attention to what another is saying or asking here on the boards as you share and engage. I have no doubt this pursuit to understand and grow in active listening will be a joyful journey and will bear much fruit in your life!

[square]

A: I believe my responding over the safe speaker is me allowing my mind to prepare a continuation of the subject in advance, as they speak vs allowing them to fully finish their train of thought, fully absorbing what they said, validating their speaking and then (just as you are doing with me now) responding to assist in expanding their own thoughts. With PD's, any thought of empathy-absorbing must be replaced by me with high-radar observing/processing, or pay the 🔺consequences for not having done so.   

If I understand correctly, you feel you are thinking ahead to what you will say rather than fully listening to what someone is saying. You've indicated this is a protective mechanism.

Thinking of your father, what happens when you allow him to speak freely?

For example, does he completely dominate the conversation unless you are on your toes and taking any and all openings? If this were the case, what does it mean to you (feel like) when you do not manage to get your voice in?

Does he steer the topics to dangerous ground, such as criticisms of you? And therefore feel you have to actively keep the conversation headed in safer directions?

Thinking of your ex-wife, what happens when you allow her to speak freely? What are the consequences of listening without preparing your response, when it comes to her?

In similar ways, I do the same here on Out of the FOG, inserting my opinions, experiences and ideas vs more asking creative questions to expand on the writers thoughts, even if I may have experiences which could be beneficial.  It may be further assistance to do more of what you are doing, in a proactive writing practice on other comrade's threads, which will be better active-reading practice, helping to assist my active-listening learning progression in my face-to-face conversations and phone calls.

You already are a terrific active listener on the board, SoT, and widely regarded as such.

[SeaBreeze]

Not commenting; just following this thread. You could say I'm "actively reading". 

[square]

Do you mostly trust those at first with whom you dont know well, potentially sharing vulnerably with them, until they prove themselves threatening? 

Yes, that is how I am naturally, due to a combination of my innate personality plus the experience of a safe childhood.

I have chosen to become more reserved over the past few years, though.

If yes, have you experienced your trusting vulnerability something you regret sharing if that person has turned out later to be threatening?

Well, that is an interesting question. I've given it some thought, and the answer is no.

I can think of a number of factors for that, including not having met many people for years, and being able to identify unsafe people pretty quickly now.

But more than that, I'm not sure if I can imagine being really hurt emotionally by someone in that category, who by definition I am not strongly connected to.

I do feel I have been too trusting in the past in terms of my physical safety, and am extremely lucky that my learning experiences have been relatively minor. I intend to continue to be wary of my physical safety.

Regarding your experience as a business owner, I've never been in that position but have observed it (was the original employee of a dot com in 2002 and was the owner's "right hand man" when the team grew).

Hiring is insanely hard. A total crapshoot. My boss and I made big mistakes on hiring, and were too reluctant to fire when it wasn't working. I think today I could fix the second mistake and pull the plug quicker, but I think I'd be lying to myself if I claimed I woud be more than fractionally improved on selecting hires in the first place, if I were still a hiring manager today.

The good thing, though, is I think all the mistakes were apparent pretty quickly. Is that the case for you?

We also got in a few messes with vendors but my boss was willing to pull the plug quickly there so it was not too bad.

Clients could be a mess but my boss was brutal there and was much more likely to screw them than get screwed. SoT, there is a cost to always winning. Yes, review your errors and make adjustments. Create processes and procedures to deal with employees, vendors, and clients, including decision-making trees for key issues. Take mistakes on the chin and figure them as the cost of doing business. You will lose some. The key is cutting your losses quickly. Avoiding them altogether requires losing your soul.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Bloomie and Square,

Thank you both for your very kind words and input on the thread.  Bloomie, I find it extremely interesting (and also baffling) to contemplate your entire first paragraph as you describe being a "chronic active listener".  My experiences as a child of a PD, a younger sibling to a GC and then a caretaker husband to a uPDw, are similar to what Trees wrote:

"The PD abusers I have known, would tell me that I did not have emotional needs. Therefore, if I were to develop the ability to manage my response to my needs (as you are learning in that book) the whole topic is moot to them because I don't have needs in the first place! PD abuse is nothing if not crazy making!!"

I modeled my world-class caretaker mother in my marriage to my stbx-uPDw and then I had two PD's in my life in which that "crazy making" keeps a person well back on their heels, never obtaining that sure footing before the next wave of manipulation begins. 

Square, you wrote:

"Does he steer the topics to dangerous ground, such as criticisms of you? And therefore feel you have to actively keep the conversation headed in safer directions?"

In my adulthood, both of my PD's steer(ed) most conversations around the self-focused, covert motives of the IDD and the drama 🔺, and when the chats do not well-serve their motive, and no educated response is suitable for them to do so, the PD simply turns to criticism and name calling, like a bullying adolescent.

Growing up in my home with a uNPDf, it was wildly confusing, because as Trees so well-stated, what I thought or desired didn't matter, and when expressed, my thoughts and needs were invalidated and then discarded, leaving me hijacked; my ideas replaced with the needs of the PD.  My caretaker mother was secretly living the same life as us boys; yet non-confrontational in front of us kids, while loaded heavily with all the duties of raising us kids, doing all the office work for my fathers growing and successful business ventures (trophyism), and also being his 24/7 personal maidservant.  Haha what a damn circus that was! 🤪🤣

What Bloomie wrote:  "Which makes listening to their words excruciating..."  is so very true.  As a child with this type of parent, I either suffered through the hijacking and obeyed or else suffered the physical and/or emotional punishment methods for questioning or (God-forbid), disobeying the proud male narc, which I did periodically.  Thats what shocks me about Bloomie's experiences of being a chronic active listener. 😂 If I 'active-listened' as a child at all, it was simply a hard-learned tool to try and avoid yet another prolonged, thick-leather-belt ass whoopin'!!

I eventually learned that my mothers behaviors of steady, quiet servitude was the calmer method of existence in our home. Well... 😳😂 I must have found all those previously hijacked emotions packed away in my college suitcase, and spent them all in one place, living out my W-I-L-Dest ambitions in those incredibly risky, yet fantastically fun, large public university years, and then lol after all that, ended up legally love-bombed, settling right back into my already skilled caretaking behaviors.

When I ended up educated that this hamster wheel of the IDD had a name, and stopped behaving in that way, my high-radar, self-protecting conversations with both PD's, quickly toolbox-veered away from the norm of meeting their growing needs, and straight into the gutter of the uneducated, desperate PD mode of harsh criticism and name calling. 

Therefore, I look forward to attempting some of Squares willingness to trust strangers more in the future, and turning my radar down a bit with these unknown people, which may allow any new active listening practices to be honed. Not having family or legal connections with new people in new places (thats important to me also) will help facilitate the progress of this goal. It will be a fun adventure and a learning curve! 

Square, thanks for sharing your business experiences and advice as well. ☺️

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Ive really enjoyed the replies thus far and thanks to all for your input! 💙

As you all so well stated, this is a very important topic in the process of my healing and learning to purposefully guide myself toward healthier, balanced methods of communication, using the techniques of active-listening. 

Even though I'm the original poster on this thread, I'm now going to conversationally step out of the op role, and enjoy the general 'active-listening' topic discussion around the campfire, should anyone desire to continue.  I will be here commenting as well to other's potential posts on their ideas, opinions and experiences related to the topic. Cheers!

SoT

[notrightinthehead]

SoT, to answer your question: "Is that something you are able to do in the moment during face-to-face or on a phone call, or describing a mindfulness mediation you do in your own time as practice to prepare for live interactions? "

I do it while having the interaction.  If I don't, I quickly feel burnt-out like Bloomie describes.  I keep on checking within me and if I notice that I resonate  emotionally, I focus on my breathing and tell myself "this is theirs, not mine." And then I return to the conversation. I summarize what they said and ask if I understood correctly. I ask what solutions they tried. I ask questions. I express understanding and validate their feelings. It's actually much less exhausting than trying to solve someone else's problem. Most people know what they should do. Sometimes I say what I would do in their place, but only if asked.

Active listening was a survival skill in my childhood and I used to do it until my ears bled. In my marriage it was 100% expected from me.  Now I choose when I do it. With people in my inner circle I require reciprocity. Sometimes I listen and sometimes I want to be heard. I believe that is how a healthy relationship works.

As for having a suspicious mind, I have found that it takes much more energy to mistrust, I have to find alternative truth, give much thought to what has been said ; than to take what has been said at face value.  So, if it doesn't matter either way,  I choose to believe. And save my suspicion energy for the few times it matters. Or when it is obvious.

[SonofThunder]

SoT, to answer your question: "Is that something you are able to do in the moment during face-to-face or on a phone call, or describing a mindfulness mediation you do in your own time as practice to prepare for live interactions? "

I do it while having the interaction.  If I don't, I quickly feel burnt-out like Bloomie describes.  I keep on checking within me and if I notice that I resonate  emotionally, I focus on my breathing and tell myself "this is theirs, not mine." And then I return to the conversation. I summarize what they said and ask if I understood correctly. I ask what solutions they tried. I ask questions. I express understanding and validate their feelings. It's actually much less exhausting than trying to solve someone else's problem. Most people know what they should do. Sometimes I say what I would do in their place, but only if asked.

Active listening was a survival skill in my childhood and I used to do it until my ears bled. In my marriage it was 100% expected from me.  Now I choose when I do it. With people in my inner circle I require reciprocity. Sometimes I listen and sometimes I want to be heard. I believe that is how a healthy relationship works.

As for having a suspicious mind, I have found that it takes much more energy to mistrust, I have to find alternative truth, give much thought to what has been said ; than to take what has been said at face value.  So, if it doesn't matter either way,  I choose to believe. And save my suspicion energy for the few times it matters. Or when it is obvious.

Notrightinnthehead,

Thank you for fielding the question. Your response aligns with the teaching in the books and congratulations on being able to simultaneously navigate your own emotions while monitoring the other person in a live interaction yet remain focused on the subject matter.  Your two comments about energy conservation are useful to consider. I am even more focused now on self care going forward, and I believe that energy is so important. 

As an intj, my energy levels deplete quickly when around others, and it is difficult to regulate my focus on all the detailed inner-workings of the subject matter and/or my high-radar feedback.  I appreciate you.

SoT 

[bloomie]

Active listening was a survival skill in my childhood and I used to do it until my ears bled. In my marriage it was 100% expected from me.  Now I choose when I do it. With people in my inner circle I require reciprocity. Sometimes I listen and sometimes I want to be heard. I believe that is how a healthy relationship works.

Exactly this! Having been parentified and groomed as a survival behavior to be my parents' bestie, confidant, therapist, suicide hotline, ears always available attending to their needs dutiful daughter, as notright says, this was 100% expected of me.

Anything about myself that could compete or conflict with the family system's purpose of sustaining my parents, both individually and as a
tour de force, was dismissed, invalidated, mocked, punished, shamed and swiftly dealt with. I was responsible for them and beholden to them. My FOO had a different power differential than it sounds like yours did, SOT, as I had two parents who were highly narcissist, grandiose, and histrionic and completely enmeshed with each other.

This set me up to, into my adult life, default to actively listening to most that crossed my path without the healthy boundaries and limits, self awareness, you all are describing. The checking in with ourselves that notright so helpfully describes was absent. For far too long, I truly didn't realize I had a choice and that many of my relationships were founded on something I didn't know to question. But, thankfully now I do.

I will also say that active listening is an imperative for me to knowing if something or someone is worth listening to. Removing the hypervigilence piece of it completely is not wise for me. Using wise screens to filter and consider another's words gets confusing at times when self doubt creeps in, but a skill set I continually hone as part of interpersonal communication.

There is great freedom in growing in understanding and awareness in skills that were stunted and actively opposed or that we might have a natural bent toward that were hijacked during our formative years. Not only are we learning to listen more fully to others while holding a separate space for ourselves, we are also learning when to lower our defenses and let another in a bit closer and to honor and recognize our own needs and express them with safe people.

As an intj, my energy levels deplete quickly when around others, and it is difficult to regulate my focus on all the detailed inner-workings of the subject matter and/or my high-radar feedback.

I a wondering about this because as an extravert, the healthier I get, I am finding the less I am able to maintain focus on the detailed inner workings of a subject as well. Especially when someone is going into those details for the second or third time.  Hmmm... food for thought.