Toxic Triangle

[beepositive]

Before I get into this, I want to just remind folks reading that I am a woman, and I am married to a woman. We have been together 12 yrs and have 7-yr old twins who I carried. When they were born we lived far from my mom, but moved to the same city (my hometown) about 4 yrs ago. My mom is an internationally known artist with a huge ego, married twice, and currently single. I am very much aware that I, and now by extension my kids, are what makes her feel worthwhile as a person and without our love, she thinks she is nothing -- despite all her success.

The dynamics between my wife and my mom are driving me crazy. I feel like I can't make my own decisions about how to manage my relationship with my mother because everything has to be comfortable for my wife, and her standards are highly variable and very different from mine. Because I am not completely "no contact," we have our boundaries and try to navigate situations as they come. For the most part my wife lays down the law if it's anything that involves the kids being present, because if I insist on anything beyond her comfort zone and she agrees, the whole thing ends up exploding and being miserable for everyone. This past weekend my wife's level of anxiety leading up to a planned gathering (our daughter's art exhibit) was so intense I found myself wishing out loud that my mother was dead, and considering ways to hasten her demise or my own, just to solve this endless problem. (I'm not suicidal or homicidal, but I'm just being honest in this safe space about the level of hopelessness this makes me feel.) Ultimately, there doesn't seem to be any solution other than my wife avoiding any and all contact with my mother. Which means no contact for the kids as well, since she doesn't trust me with the kids and mom, when she isn't present. So she insists on being there but hates every second of it. And I feel like I've lost my only family and caused my mother the worst pain imaginable. The guilt eats me alive, especially when I think of all the things she's done for me/us (financially and otherwise). I know, it doesn't matter! Just being truthful.

The events that led to me recognizing my mom's narc traits were ugly. Some of them involved not listening to us when we shared our preferences in terms of caring for the kids, and others involved poor financial decisions that my mom discovered and held against my wife, to the point of suggesting I cut her out of our deed, forcing her to take budgeting classes, and calling her selfish for spending money to fly all of us to her Opa's funeral. My wife felt belittled and attacked by my mom and I'm sure would never speak to her again if she was anyone else. And it's not as though these are simply isolated incidents. Every time things are going "ok," my mom pulls another narc move and it starts all over. She has wished my wife a "happy dad's day" even though we've made it very clear we are both moms, even though we celebrate my wife on the father's day holiday. When my mom says or does something that upsets my wife, she says she's going to speak up, but never does, or she spends weeks crafting an email she'll never send. She is overcome with anxiety and anger anytime my mother is around, and in the hours/days leading up to it, even if we've elaborately honed the plan together in advance. I get upset too, but I try to move forward and keep my expectations low. I recognize that I have much more to gain and less to lose by staying in contact. But at this point, the kids have a relationship with grandma. It's not incredibly close, as we haven't allowed her to be alone with them in years, but it's very meaningful to them and I'd feel awful removing her completely from their lives. My wife isn't insisting we go NC, but she doesn't appear capable of managing the gray area. I'm left with this living hell.

Ironically, my wife FaceTimes her own mom, who physically beat her and abused drugs, several times a week with the kids and often no involvement from me. I don't try to get in the way of that at all. We are planning a big cross-country trip to see them this summer. She is no longer abusive or on drugs, but I certainly don't agree with her on lots of things. It's mostly a superficial relationship.

I just don't know what to do anymore. It feels like it may be time to tell my mom listen, you've eroded any and all trust we ever had in you. We'll see you for planned and supervised visits X times/year or whatever and that's it. Something like that. I just can't go through one more of these anxiety-ridden events. It can't be that great for the kids if it's this awful for me.

OH. Here is one more monkey wrench. My wife's anxiety also sometimes ruins events for me even when my mom is not involved in any way. She gets super hyped up for any big moment, and everything else comes second to her micromanagement of the situation. Because of this, I struggle to feel confident that it is indeed, my mom causing this. And I worry about the ramifications of allowing my wife's anxiety to dictate something as big as my own and my children's relationship with my mother.

[Leonor]

Hi Bee!

Here's the thing: family is never really just one thing. Or just one person. Or just one problem.

It's entirely possible that anxiety is bubbling up around your wife and your mother and your wife's mother and ... and ... and...

No one has to be the Good Woman or the Bad Woman in this scenario.

But it does seem to me like you and your wife are a little off-center. This is your primary relationship. Everyone and everything else comes second to this relationship. That includes her mom, and it includes your mom, too.

You can make this situation easier, but you will have to circle the wagons around you and your love. Keep the moms out of it. What is it that you want and need and dream and plan together and for each other? How can you make that happen for the two of you as a couple?

Rather than "well your mom did this" or "oh yeah well your mom said that" consider what boundaries are acceptable to you as a couple. "In this family, we do not accept that anyone demeans our relationship or shared motherhood." Or, "In this family, we do not tolerate that anyone speaks badly to one of us about our wife." Or, "In this family, we do not allow our children to spend time with people who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol."

I have a feeling that your narc moms (your sounds pretty overt, and hers more covert) enmeshed the two of you as little girls, and now you both are trying to find ways to have a marriage "on the side." But that's the trade off of marriage and, frankly, motherhood. You can't cleave to your wife until you leave your mom. And you can't be mom to your kids until your mom is grandma to you.

This is bittersweet in healthy, normal families. But it's a maelstrom in dysfunctional ones with narcissist mothers. She is not going to let go. She is not going to get it. She is not going to support your marriage.

But that's ok, because you can do it for her. You can let go of trying to save your mom. You can get that she is dysfunctional and is not going to change. And you can devote yourself to your marriage.

In doing so, there is a very good chance that your wife will feel that she can trust you with her heart. That your loyalty is not torn between her and a woman who disparages her. And that may allow her to let go of her dysfunctional mom too.

I bet you two married each other out of an almost unconscious desire to heal together from the trauma of narcissist mothers, to redefine yourselves as women, and to raise beautiful children who appreciate and honor and empower women. Can you bond over that? Share a book on narcissist mothers and compare notes?

Because it's not just her and her and her and her ... It's you, too.

Be well, beewell!

[beepositive]

Here's the thing: family is never really just one thing. Or just one person. Or just one problem.

Well, ain't that the truth. Thank you for that perspective. I agree and I'm glad you see that. I think sometimes when you begin realizing you are dealing with someone with a PD, it can start to seem like that story trumps all else. Because all the other problems get sort of pulled up into the PD tornado and it becomes very difficult to tease it all apart. The PD person, knowingly or unknowingly, encourages this while also insisting they are neutral and harmless. So my whole life feels like one big gaslight in a way.

"In this family, we do not accept that anyone demeans our relationship or shared motherhood." Or, "In this family, we do not tolerate that anyone speaks badly to one of us about our wife."

I guess I still don't know what "not accepting" or "not tolerating" looks like. Is it not spending time together? Is it cutting off contact? Is it not inviting her to events involving the kids? Is it not going to the family reunion because she'll be there? Is it moving away? I don't know that I know how to "not tolerate."

You can't cleave to your wife until you leave your mom. And you can't be mom to your kids until your mom is grandma to you.

Again I'm unsure if I know how. Do I have to stop seeing my mother as my mother? Almost like our mother/daughter relationship has closed, and now I am mom, and she is grandma, but I will decide how much of a relationship she can have with her grandchildren? Does that mean I don't acknowledge her on mother's day? I don't feel like this is how people usually see things when they get married, but maybe I'm not getting it.

She is not going to let go. She is not going to get it. She is not going to support your marriage.

I feel like she supported my first marriage, which was kind of a high school sweetheart thing -- we married when I was 24. We had a big wedding, lots of family involvement, everyone was supportive. But it only lasted 3 yrs. I think my mom was happier with the traditional hetero setup. We were young and still involved her in a lot of our lives, we lived near her and then rented from her for a year while saving to buy a home. He was very respectful of her because somehow it wasn't really a problem then. I still deferred to her for a lot of things, but I also trusted my husband. Everyone was happy despite her, I'm sure, being a narc at that time. It hadn't occurred to me yet that there was something wrong. HOWEVER looking back and talking about this now, I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility that she contributed to the breakdown of that marriage.

I bet you two married each other out of an almost unconscious desire to heal together from the trauma of narcissist mothers, to redefine yourselves as women, and to raise beautiful children who appreciate and honor and empower women. Can you bond over that? Share a book on narcissist mothers and compare notes?

Ya think? LOL! This is a great idea.

[Leonor]

Hi Bee!

Well, I would suggest that coming up with boundaries and consequences could be an opportunity to strengthen your bond with your wife!

"I love you and don't want anything or anyone to come between us. I want to sit down, just the two of us, and come up with ways we can build a white picket boundary around our little home and finally feel like we have each other's back, 100 percent."

The hard part, though, is being aware that that conversation is going to be triggering for you both, because the idea of saying anything or feeling anything or thinking anything or hearing anything that Mom may not like (for both of you) is going to activate your trauma bonds - with your moms and with each other. Here's how that fun scenario can go (ask me how I know )

Wife says: I would really like it if we spent Sunday mornings together playing Wordle on the porch.

(You, traumatized child hears): IF MOM WANTS TO HAVE SUNDAY BRUNCH WITH YOU THAT DAY YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO AND YOU'LL GET IN TROUBLE!

You, trauma bonded adult says: I don't know, what if something comes up and we have to plan around it? Can we maybe do Sundays or Saturdays?

Wife (feels rejected): Your mom is more important to you than I am.

You: You're reading into things! I didn't say anything about my mom!

Or ...

Wife says: Look, our moms are dysfunctional but neither of us is really ready or willing to go no contact, so why don't we talk about the degree of comfort we have in dealing with them on our own?

(You, traumatized child hears): IF SHE TALKS TO HER MOM HER MOM WILL CONVINCE HER TO CHOOSE HER MOM OVER ME AND I'LL BE ABANDONED ALL OVER AGAIN.

You, trauma bonded adult says: Well my mom may be a little over the top but yours is an alcoholic, so I don't think it's healthy for you to be around her.

Wife (feels rejected.) You are accusing me of being weak.

You: No one is accusing you of anything, I'm just stating a fact about your mom!

So the key, I think, isn't so much this or that golden rule or magic recipe, but to return the focus from the Queen Mother to you and your wife, supporting and loving each other through the thickets of these entangled and insidious trauma bonds. You can even have an agreement: "If I feel upset when we start talking about someone's mom, I going to say, Trauma bond activated! and take a break to breathe and soothe myself (and definitely not stew over the fact that you probably are totally disordered from your messed up upbringing and I can't believe I have to deal with this crap.) And you can do the same without me stewing over how trippy and dramatic your trauma bond is that you can't even have a normal conversation."

I promise that at first there may be arguments and tears and silences, and doubts and fits and sleeping on couches, but if the two of you can hang in there, you'll not only come out the other side, you'll be able to console each other and to laugh together about it one day.

[NarcKiddo]

To me it sounds like both you and your wife have had psychologically damaging treatment from your respective mothers. It also sounds to me as if you have realised this in respect of your own mother and are treading the path of healing. Good for you. I'm not clear on whether your wife has acknowledged ongoing problems for her in connection with her mother? Obviously she has revealed the past abuse but the anxiety levels you describe do not suggest to me that these problems are fully in the past as far as her psyche is concerned. She may think it is all over (probably does since she visits her mother with the kids) but I think she is probably still in the middle of some horrible emotional maelstrom. She possibly can't acknowledge it in respect of her own mother but mothers could be a danger zone for her. So your mother is as big a danger zone as her own. And she may be (subconsciously) imagining how she might react in the face of her mother behaving like your mother and she may fear you reacting in the same way.

Since your mother behaves as if her self-worth and very survival is centred on you and your children, your wife may feel threatened because you are the one who bore the twins. This will be reinforced by your mother talking about "dad's day". She might fear that if your mother can somehow drive a wedge between you and her, then you will side with your mother and take the children away.

Leonor gives very good advice on how the trauma bonds may be ignited in any discussions and it is something to be aware of.

I notice from your opening post how your wife says she will speak up or spends ages composing emails etc. Perhaps one thing you could do is see if you can lessen that burden. Could you tell her that of course she can speak up if she wishes, but she does not need to. You will tell your mother not to do x. And you can agree with your wife that if your mother does x the consequence will be y. An obvious consequence does not have to be immediately going NC. It could be saying "You know we will not tolerate x" and immediately ending the conversation or the visit. Are you able to have visits where your wife is sort of "there but not there"? So she is present and can see the kids are in no danger from your mother but maybe occupied with talking to someone else? Or some family activity where everyone has to paint a picture or make a model or something, so the focus is on an activity more than personal interactions. Or some fun park where she is the one who takes the kids off for rides while you chat to your mother. Ultimately you both need to be able to trust one another to do something with the kids that does not always involve the other spouse. And this could have very practical ramifications - what if she had to spend time in hospital? Her worrying about what you might be doing in her absence is hardly conducive to a quick recovery. So feeling calmer and more trusting generally would be of possible huge benefit later on.

I don't think your wife's anxiety is the sole, or even the main, issue here. But it for sure seems to be a contributor. Would she be open to the idea of therapy for her anxiety? Does she acknowledge the anxiety at all, or just get hyped up?

[beepositive]

Leonor: Everything you said is so good and your dialogue was hilarious and so on point. The thing is, we HAVE created a whole list of boundaries and GAVE IT TO MY MOM, 2 yrs ago. I think one of the issues is that I didn't, and still don't, probable really understand what a boundary is and how to enforce it. I think I used to still think it was a way to control her behavior. Now I know it's not, it's more "you do this, we do that." Or just saying no to certain things, and not feeling obligated to give explanations and defenses. I think, and I'm being really vulnerable in saying this, I am probably not truly honoring the boundaries. When it comes down to it, and my mom catches me with my guard down, or texts me these convoluted questions, or studies things I may post on FB and comes up with her own interpretations or guesses about what is going on, I don't necessarily speak up. It's hard for me to see it. But I've been thinking hard about this since reading your comment. And one thing that came to mind is a few months ago, my mom went into a whole pity party while she was here at our home. She had just stopped by to bring us extra covid tests because we were all recovering and boy do you fly through covid tests in a family of 4 when everyone has it. Anyway, we made the mistake of all masking and having her in for a few mins, and she ends up in tears about why we won't let her babysit the kids, etc. My wife literally just froze and stared at me. And I stuck to my guns and kept just saying listen, we are not getting into this now and we have told you our preferences and reasons before, end of story. But still, it dragged on longer than it should have, then when she was saying goodbye she lingered at the door begging that nothing would change even though she did this. It was like ughhhhhhh. She KNEW she had crossed a boundary by begging and guilty tripping. And then she was asking for there to be no consequence. And basically, that's what happened. Nothing. Life just went on.

[beepositive]

To me it sounds like both you and your wife have had psychologically damaging treatment from your respective mothers. It also sounds to me as if you have realised this in respect of your own mother and are treading the path of healing. Good for you. I'm not clear on whether your wife has acknowledged ongoing problems for her in connection with her mother?

I didn't mention that the more (?) severe (sexual) abuse came from her father. But no, my wife does not seem to acknowledge any ongoing problems with her mother. She considers it all past. She spent her late teens/early 20s driving around with her grandparents tracking her mom down in crack/meth-houses and trying to save her. And save her they did. She miraculously got clean and has been sober now for like 20 yrs. When my wife's brother had kids she became "Oma" and my wife feels she has healed her relationship with her by seeing her do better with her grandchildren, and is now offering her that opportunity with our kids. In my 12 yrs knowing her, she has never done anything outright horrible to me/us, other than seeing her extreme anxiety sometimes get in the way of her participating in certain events or backing out of things, or just being generally a little immature and hyperfocused on herself in conversations, going on tangents etc. My wife believes her brain was really injured from yrs of drug abuse and I'm sure that is true. Overall she is very sweet and generous with us, albeit not someone I can really go deep with. But she has never been mean to me, the way my mom has been mean to my wife.

She might fear that if your mother can somehow drive a wedge between you and her, then you will side with your mother and take the children away.

She most definitely fears this. The hard thing is that it feels like it ends up controlling me and my behavior and ability to do what feels comfortable or healthy for me. If I go farther than she would in anything with my mom, my wife considers me to be wildly unsafe and thinks I've forgotten every awful thing that's ever happened. She doesn't recognize that I am constantly engaged in a risk-benefit analysis and trying to make good judgment calls, taking everything into consideration. She sort of acts like we're starting at zero every time there is a new situation to navigate.

Leonor gives very good advice on how the trauma bonds may be ignited in any discussions and it is something to be aware of.

She sure does! I worry that my wife just really does not see/will not admit that she even experiences this.

I don't think your wife's anxiety is the sole, or even the main, issue here. But it for sure seems to be a contributor. Would she be open to the idea of therapy for her anxiety? Does she acknowledge the anxiety at all, or just get hyped up?

Absolutely not the sole issue, but yeah, a really big contributor. She has been in therapy a lot. I tried to get her into EMDR last year but the therapist wasn't really trained in it yet, and then it fizzled. She acknowledges her anxiety typically after it's done its damage. Usually with no apology. It's almost like, why didn't you help me more, you knew I was anxious. But if I try to help in the moment she accuses me of trying to be her therapist (which is what I do for a living). It really is unbearable when her anxiety gets the best of her, and she is mean and dismissive toward me, and she does it in front of the kids. In that aspect, I actually feel like I am living in an abusive relationship. And she basically refuses to truly acknowledge it.

[moglow]

I think one of the issues is that I didn't, and still don't, probable really understand what a boundary is and how to enforce it. I think I used to still think it was a way to control her behavior. Now I know it's not, it's more "you do this, we do that." Or just saying no to certain things, and not feeling obligated to give explanations and defenses. I think, and I'm being really vulnerable in saying this, I am probably not truly honoring the boundaries. When it comes down to it, and my mom catches me with my guard down, or texts me these convoluted questions, or studies things I may post on FB and comes up with her own interpretations or guesses about what is going on, I don't necessarily speak up. It's hard for me to see it. But I've been thinking hard about this since reading your comment. And one thing that came to mind is a few months ago, my mom went into a whole pity party while she was here at our home. She had just stopped by to bring us extra covid tests because we were all recovering and boy do you fly through covid tests in a family of 4 when everyone has it. Anyway, we made the mistake of all masking and having her in for a few mins, and she ends up in tears about why we won't let her babysit the kids, etc. ... She KNEW she had crossed a boundary by begging and guilty tripping. And then she was asking for there to be no consequence. And basically, that's what happened. Nothing. Life just went on.

I beg to differ - from where I'm sitting you handled your boundary just fine! She challenged by bringing it up [baby sitting] yet again, and nothing changed. The consequence for her behavior was there and it didn't change either. You didn't back down and you didn't cave in. You can ask 10 ways to Saturday for her to not bring it up, but you can't control what she does, that's not your boundary. Your boundary is *your response*, that she won't be babysitting, and that's not happening. You can simply refuse to discuss it further, and you did. She can think or make assumptions all she wants, that's her stuff. Overall, this isn't about *her* but what's best for your family.

[Leonor]

Hey Bee,

I'd just like to chime in here so as not to monopolize your responses, in the same spirit of "been there done that" and also empathy, because your situation with your wife and mom really is a painful experience, and I know there are more tears than laughter.

Bee, you write in your post about all the other people: your mom's narcissism, your wife's anxiety, your mother in law's addiction, your father in law's predatory behavior. You truly feel surrounded, at times, by trauma and dysfunction, and it's bewildering and upsetting.

But here's the thing: that part where I say family dysfunction isn't just the one person? Okay, this is like the medicine inside the spoonful of sugar: that includes you, dear Bee. So your distress may originate in your relationship with your mom, and it may be aggravated by your relationship with your wife, but it's centered in your relationship with you.  You're not the "normal one" in the eye of this hurricane of hurting women (hurticane?) You're hurt, too. You're part of the hurticane.

Part of your trauma is looking everywhere at everyone else: what are they doing? How are they hurting me? Why can't they see how hard I'm trying? But that also gives you license to not look at what you're doing, how you hurt people, why you can't see how hard they are trying.

It's not because you're mean or clueless or abusive, okay? It's your trauma bond. It's your enmeshment with your mom. (Again, ask me how I know ) I'm going on a limb here: you are either an only child, an only daughter, or the golden child. And even though you know at times mom's a little, well, you know, she's also amazing. I mean, she's an internationally known artist! But even more than that, you two had a special bond, and it would break your heart to cause her pain or lose her in your life.

Right there. That's the pain. That's your trauma. Bee, you could live all alone on a desert island and you'd be in the same pain as you are in your marriage today.

You may not be the least damaged person in the room. But you can be the one most invested in healing. The most actively healing person in the room. And healing is contagious: as you grow and recover, people will grow and heal with you, or you will heal "out of" them.

I have two recommendations for you: one is Dr. Ken Adams' YouTube video, "Are you enmeshed?" and the other is Drew Barrymore's interview with Jeanette McCurdy, also on YouTube. And another: a trauma informed therapist, just for you.

Hugs if ok, dear Bee!

[beepositive]

I beg to differ - from where I'm sitting you handled your boundary just fine!

Thank you. Funny it didn't occur to me to see it that way. I think it was someone here who once told me that doing the right thing won't always feel good. I guess this is one of those times. Where I felt I went wrong was that my mom walked away from this guilt-trip session begging that we not inflict any consequences. Even though this was the exact type of behavior we had stated there would be consequences for. And with her blabbering and crying I felt like I had to say fine. But I also don't really know what the consequences would be.

[beepositive]

your distress may originate in your relationship with your mom, and it may be aggravated by your relationship with your wife, but it's centered in your relationship with you.  You're not the "normal one" in the eye of this hurricane of hurting women (hurticane?) You're hurt, too. You're part of the hurticane.

Far from normal, yes, I would have to agree. Takes one to know one and all that. I'm right at home in a hurticane!

Right there. That's the pain. That's your trauma. Bee, you could live all alone on a desert island and you'd be in the same pain as you are in your marriage today.

Oh absolutely. Have you read The Bell Jar? I related to that book more than a teenager should, I think. I actually spent many of my formative years wishing desperately to live on a desert island, or in the woods. The Bell Jar helped me realize it wouldn't help at all. Plus, it would be difficult to get a steady supply of cupcakes.

You may not be the least damaged person in the room. But you can be the one most invested in healing. The most actively healing person in the room. And healing is contagious: as you grow and recover, people will grow and heal with you, or you will heal "out of" them.

This really hit me. I am healing and I am a healer. I think I really need to recenter my focus on that, and on encouraging my wife to join me in that journey as best she can. I do have a very good therapist with a strong grasp of narcissism, and I will look at your other recommendations. I've been scared to read that book!

[moglow]

I dug back through your early posts for this, to help clarify my mindset a bit:

One of those boundaries is that she will no longer have the kids over to her house or do things with them alone. For safety and other reasons. It just didn't work for us. The other boundaries have to do with not guilt tripping us, not giving gifts with strings, and things like that. ...

She has continually asked, every six months or so, if she can now see the kids alone. We keep saying no. She obviously thinks it's something where she has to prove herself by being "good," and then we'll change the rules. That's not quite how we see it.

Most recently, she asked me (alone) if it could change. I admittedly don't manage it well when she corners me like that. Then she texted me and asked again and I ignored it. Then she brought it up while at our home when we also had a friend and her kid visiting. And she broke down in tears making it so uncomfortable for everyone. And then she asked again like a week ago.

I responded that no, nothing has changed and any change would need to be initiated by us. In other words, stop asking. She lost her mind. Responded with a whole guilt trip about how she is depleted and grieving and asking whether other grandparents will get to have sleepovers with them, but not her, and how she is being held hostage by mine and my wife's childhood trauma, and on and on. Then the next day pleading to know if she would be "punished" for her "infraction." I replied to please stop using these legal terms, this is not a criminal case. She replied saying it's all orders and rules and she has no voice and she asked can we just go back to the status quo.

My thoughts:
You've told her clearly and repeatedly now, it's not an option. Her repeatedly trying to thrust open that door doesn't help, it just shows she's disregarding your oft-repeated wishes. Her having one of those meltdowns in front of others, would have slammed it for me. Not acceptable at all and I'd have shut down hard. NOPE. Like mine [if she was interested in anyone other than herself!] she thinks with a little quiet time and her "being good" you'll and reconsider if she asks again. No. You told her no and you meant no. You told her any change would need to be initiated by you.

Her meltdowns and begging and pleading and waifing and all that don't make her *behavior* go away - all that actually does is reiterate that nothing has changed with her. She blatantly disregarded your rules for your children and you have no reason to believe that has changed. You can't control what she or anyone else does, but your boundary of your children not staying with her alone? Still stands. You can *ask* that she stop with the guilt trips, gift giving, etc, but that's not something you can realistically do anything about.

[Cat of the Canals]

I beg to differ - from where I'm sitting you handled your boundary just fine!

Thank you. Funny it didn't occur to me to see it that way. I think it was someone here who once told me that doing the right thing won't always feel good. I guess this is one of those times. Where I felt I went wrong was that my mom walked away from this guilt-trip session begging that we not inflict any consequences. Even though this was the exact type of behavior we had stated there would be consequences for. And with her blabbering and crying I felt like I had to say fine. But I also don't really know what the consequences would be.

I agree with moglow. In my mind, the natural consequence for someone who repeatedly violates boundaries is to limit contact with them. And I wouldn't be surprised if you've already applied this consequence without even realizing it, because who wants to spend time with someone who behaves this way?

I think a lot of boundaries and consequences work in tandem this way. We can't change their behavior, and if they won't respect our boundaries, the obvious result is that we stop giving them opportunities to do so.

[bloomie]

beepositive - in the dynamic you describe I can so closely relate to your wife.

While both myself and my husband grew up in disordered family systems they looked very different. I was your wife in my teens tracking down my mother as she unraveled in her addictions and mental illness tasked with keeping her alive.

My husband was the GC of a histrionic, waif-like, highly manipulative mother, who on the surface, looked just exactly like June Cleaver. And another part of your scenario that is familiar is my mother was very well known in her circle, gifted, and revered. On quite the pedestal to others who had zero idea of how very labile and insecure she was as her public persona was fabulous. All this makes for a whole lotta confusion.

The key difference that became fertile soil for anxiety, power struggles, misunderstandings and miscommunications is I KNEW my family was a mess and my DH didn't recognize that in his own. He had marinated in a toxic stew all of his life. I KNEW my family was intrusive and boundary busting and I needed to hold my ground. My DH didn't even know he had a right to his own lifestyle, privacy, beliefs. His family was privy to his life to an unhealthy level. It was expected if they asked, he answered giving over far too much and reinforcing their entitlement.

I KNEW the potential for harm my own family presented to our beautiful FOC. My DH didn't recognize for himself how harmful his mother's toxic tactics are. He saw her as annoying, childlike, easily upset, emotionally limited, but mostly well intentioned. Reality is she is one of the most damaging, soul destroying people I have ever encountered. All wrapped up in a practically perfect, awfully nice little package. 

My DH's naivety and self doubt was the gateway. His passivity and the unrecognized enmeshment with his FOO was the entry point that allowed extreme vulnerability to the potential damage from his family to our little family. In our case, DH struggled mightily to hold a consistent view - good, bad and all that is in between, based on a reasonable assessment, of his family.

others involved poor financial decisions that my mom discovered and held against my wife, to the point of suggesting I cut her out of our deed, forcing her to take budgeting classes, and calling her selfish for spending money to fly all of us to her Opa's funeral.

I say this gently, but your financial decisions and picture are none of your mother's business. If you are reliant in any way upon your mother financially, go to her to cover expenses here and there, or even confiding in your mother the finer details about very private matters about any part of your life you may be acting as a gateway to this kind of disrespect and emotional abuse of your wife.

And this may be a helpful place to start examining if you have been passive and/or possibly deferring responsibility for decisions your mother wouldn't approve of onto your wife bringing an atmosphere of unease into your primary relationship. Your marriage.

Because of this, I struggle to feel confident that it is indeed, my mom causing this. And I worry about the ramifications of allowing my wife's anxiety to dictate something as big as my own and my children's relationship with my mother.

You want to know what is the single most important factor in the health and well being of your kiddos? How you love their mother. The health and stability of your marriage and family life is the single most important part of providing an atmosphere of human flourishing for your precious kids.

It is wonderful if children have grandparents as a loving, supportive layer in their lives. But, not at all required. I am a grandparent and you know what beewell, I get 100% that my relationship with my children in love (I call them that - my in law kids) is the key to maintaining loving relationships with my adult children and my grandchildren. I do not have permission to comment on their parenting, disrespect them, or defy the stated wishes for the care of grandchildren. Their finances, vacations, clothing, lifestyle, where they live, what they eat, how often I get to see them... all not mine to decide. If I make their lives harder - and I mean through deliberate refusal to manage my offensive behaviors differently - not through unforeseen illness - my adult kids are not going to put up with it for very long. I can tell you that right now. And that is good and as it should be.

When we create space for separateness around our families, when we do the hard work of recognizing the stuff we all bring to the table and learn to coexist in good enough, healthy ways the anxiety drops and trust strengthens. It seems, in spite of the troubles from the past, your wife has been able to do that with her mother. They have a superficial, loving, good enough relationship at a distance.

So often, partners like yours and me to my DH are the canary in the coal mine for our disordered in law family systems. Because we didn't grow up in the system, because our needs and sensitivities are unique we often are the ones sounding the alarm that there are dangerous gases present in the atmosphere. Your wife grew up hyper vigilant and eyes wide open. Her anxiety may be, and I repeat I cannot know, but may be in large part to a lack of safety and possibly a lack of recognition on your part, or confusion, to just how difficult and damaging your mother potentially is or has been already.

A saying here at Out of the FOG that helps explain this better goes something like this: Someone can treat you well 90% of the time and terribly 10% of the time and you feel bad 100% of the time.

That 10% that you describe in your mother's interactions with your wife and your children creates an atmosphere 100% of the time. Maybe that is another way that helps understand the anxiety all of the time that you see in your wife.

For all of us it starts with awareness. Recognition that something is very wrong and causing a great deal of pain in our lives. We begin with looking at how we think about things and what we believe. We examine the shoulds and oughts we have lived unquestioningly with all of our lives. And as you are doing, we gather help to move toward health and stability.