FOG and Christianity. I feel manipulated but I am obligated?

[PeaceBeStill]

Hi all, I hope this isn't triggering for any of you, especially the religious part. They lord it over me, expectations of me, and when my parents misbehave, they quote "obedience" and "respect" to me to justify their actions.

I know they're wrong, and I know they do this as a shield for themselves knowing I couldn't defend myself because The Bible expects a child to submit to their parent, at whatever age.

I feel like I'm walking such a thin line, staying within my morals and taking all their mischief. I stopped going to church because it's hard to trust people who use a higher power to justify being abusive.

I guess I'm just wondering what to do about it. The guilt, fear and obligation. Because my dealing with my parents is considered rude. And I wouldn't want to be rude. I just hate how they bait me and force me to react because it I don't, I'm being disrespectful.

The times I've reacted, it ended up badly for me. And they were shielded from any guilt of their actions because they're parents and they interpret the Bible as saying they are gods to their children on earth, meaning, they can do whatever they want and not be held accountable/be justified. The whole "spare the rod and spoil the child" "fifth commandment" thing.

They totally disregard the part that asks parents not to push their kids or be overbearing to their children.

Please, any advice that doesn't involve no contact or moving out. I'm stuck.

[InvisibleDaughter]

Consistently pray for strength. It sounds like they won't change or see their ways as wrong. My Mom has NPD, she's 69 and I'm 48. It's like our relationship is a game to her, she can never be wrong and when I challenge something she says she is verbally abusive.

Maybe you could have as little interaction with them as possible. Make your life so that you're not home much. Read at the library, go to a park, spend more time with friends. My quality of life vastly improved when I moved out. Emotional abuse isn't healthy.
Sending you a (((hug)))

[Sneezy]

Religion can be used for good or for bad.  Anyone can cherry-pick verses of the bible to get the result they want.  Don't buy into the terrible theology that says you must be treated poorly by someone else, even your parents.  Remember that regardless of what individual bible verses may say, the over-arching theme of any good religion, including Christianity, is love.  You are a child of God and you are worthy and deserving of love and respect.

I know you say you can't move out now, but someday you will be able to.  Plan ahead, think ahead, do what you can to gain your independence, even if takes a while to work out.

[Cat of the Canals]

I highly recommend the Medium Chill guide in the Toolbox: https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/medium-chill

It's a method of avoiding the drama and the baiting while remaining polite and calm.

It also might help if you share some examples of your ways of dealing with your parents that would be considered rude. Because a lot of times, it isn't rude at all. But it's common to have been conditioned by our disordered parents to believe that having firm and healthy boundaries is rude/wrong/disobedient. 

[Liketheducks]

I hear you.   I was raised unchurched....which I'm sort of grateful for....because when I needed the church coming out of FOG it was truly a Godsend.    I worked in an episcopal church for 17 years later in life.   Just retired from a professional singing gig.   During that time, I started as politely sitting and not being a part.   They roped me in with acceptance of me where I was wherever I was.

Whenever I've heard the obligatory language to honor your mother and father, I've had to cringe a bit.    Anyone who has these experiences would.     What flipped the switch for me was a sermon that preached that I was a child of God.   Deserving and guaranteed of unconditional love just as I am....on my good days and bad days.    My parents couldn't provide that, but I could turn that over to a higher power.    God would always be there for me.   That honoring my parents has to look right to me.   Be safe for me.   

Hang in there.   You do deserve unconditional love and compassion.

[PeaceBeStill]

Thank you so much, InvisibleDaughter.

It's scary, though, that the only way to deal is to find busy myself and detach my life from them. Is it silly that, after all the manipulation, when the anger and frustration has died down, that my thought go to this place where I'm willing and hoping to work on my relationship with them?

Leaving them on their own feels like I'm abandoning them. Betraying them for having raised me, because I know their PD isn't all they are. This is the conflict I have with myself.
That I'm grateful for the good they've done, my dad especially. But also, that in their superiority as parents, I cannot "teach" them how to parent me.

I go away for a few weeks and then return, and I can keep myself busy and away, but I always come back, worried about how they're doing.

[PeaceBeStill]

You're right, Sneezy. There is no way it is okay for one Child of God to be above God's own law of love, being more deserving of respect than another.

I'll have to remember this, to avoid falling back into the cycle. I tend to convince myself to forgive and give them another chance because I get mushy and hopeful they'll see how much I care about them. And in those moments where my mum wants what she wants and will use anyone in my life to get it from me, I tend to convince myself that it's parental love and that if I refuse to give in, I'll regret it and it'll be worse because I'll never hear the end of it. She's the kind of person who will parade my shame to the whole world for as long as she can as a lesson she is always right and that I must always obey her for my own good.
But no one deserves this. I'll be praying for strength, as Invisible Daughter suggests, and maybe put myself first in manifesting it.

[PeaceBeStill]

Thanks, Cat of The Canals, for that recommendation. I'll go through it. I hope it helps.

Some of the ways I deal with my parents when, for instance, when my mum is overly upset about something, blowing it out of proportion, and is yelling through the house making dad upset with all the noise and yelling, he calls me in for a 'lecture' obviously trying to show assertive action, to maybe get an apology from me or have me do what mum wants or just have me there receive what mum is dishing out instead of him.

I may have already apologized, and not mind doing ao again, but I am not heard and it gets dragged out, she's not done being mad and I hate it when an apology is not enough because usually, there's nothing else I can do but be there, listening to her condemn me for twelve other mistakes I made and apologized or even made up for in the past. I'm pretty mature now, I'd like to think, enough to understand when I'm wrong or when I should have done better. But being condemned, even by the parent whom I've grown up to admire as a role model in some ways (dad) is heart breaking. I understand he's only doing so to get some peace but I never hear him defend me. Even when she's wrong. So he's just as biased as she is.

Last year, I went out with this guy. I keep my social life private to avoid premature sabotage. The "date" was horrible and the guy put me in an uncomfortable position, so I saidnI wanted to leave. He stalled, making excuses, and when I finally could leave, it was late and my phone was dead. When I got home, mum was chill, I expected a lecture, but that was all. Instead, she came at me about my hair being a mess, asking me why I would go out with my hair like that "looking challenged".

It was only 8pm. And I did not see how my hair being a mess was any of her business, or such a big deal she would be pulling at it and yanking me around with it. I kept telling her to let go of me, and she would, with malicious words coming out of her mouth. I think I blocked them out.

I was hoping that in not engaging, she would stop and just lecture me or go off muttering her disappointments in me, but she followed me, poking me at the head and then digging with her nail, calling me proud and saying I was nothing, as she's fond of saying. "You're just a useless girl."

Dad came in and, as usual, wanting his peace and quiet, tried to mediate but eventually ended up siding with her. He wanted to know what had led to this, and I don't know if it's something that was taught to me as discipline or my shrinking away to let the "adults" speak, I wasn't telling my side of things. Besides, she would twist anyhing I said anyways.

When she hit me across the face and I said "Fine. Hit me. I won't stop you. Let it all out". I was calm on the inside, because I was still tying to process my "date" earlier and was just happy to be out of there, I wanted this drama to be over so I could go sit quietly on my own.

But I suppose that even changed something in me fo her because I knew, finally, after several similar incidents, that she..they're never going to be there for me if the world took a hit at me. And it would, but so do they. I knew, I was on my own.

[PeaceBeStill]

Thank you so much, Liketheducks. Of all the parts of the Bible, this is the only one I've questioned, and that has had me questioning my faith until now.

Wondering where the selfishness begins, and where the selflessness ends. Knowing God as my father, but not sure where he fits in in my relationship with my parents.

Wondering if He approves of all they do, and whether He judges me for fearing them more than I fear Him, and whether there's grace for that for me.

I would leap out, trusting Him to take care of me, but my logic has me captive. And maybe I can't pray on this on my own, but there's no one I trust with this struggle enough to ask them to pray with me or for me.

I hope someone here does, along with me.

[bloomie]

PeaceBeStill - I just finished praying for you and over your situation. I will continue to.

Honoring your parents is not = to permanent submission to their authority. It is also not allowing yourself to be abused or to stay in a soul destroying, independence sabotaging situation or relationship. You can find safety and break free. You are on the cusp of being fully educated and equipped to, on your own, build a life for yourself that includes moving out of your parents' and the reach of extended family.

Honoring your parents is doing exactly what you are doing - being responsible for yourself to make your way in this world without dependence upon them and respecting their ability, as fully fledged adults, to take care of themselves.

What you describe going on in your parents' home - I read through all of your posts thus far - is domestic violence, emotional, physical and spiritual abuse. The level of engulfment you describe and your parents' ganging up on you and abusing you is horrific and breaks my heart for you. You describe a mother who is so dominating, bullying, unstable and violent she literally attempts to 'put on your life' and rob you of opportunity and self expression.

And you describe a father who will put you between his own discomfort and use you as a human shield from your mother's toxic behaviors.

There is no where in The Bible that condones any of this and there is no where in The Bible that expects adult children to 'honor' their parents by living in this terrible situation. 

It is very difficult to be able to hold two opposing truths about abusive parents at the same time. I understand the tension that creates in us when we see the terrible ugliness of our disordered family system and parents and we see admirable qualities as well. I can promise you that getting some time and distance from this toxic environment will ease some of that tension. 

It is in your best interest to consider going outside of your family/friend circle and find help in launching your career or finding opportunities and another place to live. Your college may very well have career counseling and help that you can tap into as you begin to make a plan for YOUR life. Your college may also offer counseling for the emotional suffering and pain you are experiencing. I highly suggest talking this through with a therapist or counselor for in real life support as you make your way forward.

I will say this boldly - your parents' behaviors as you describe them toward you are sin filled and evil. The priority for you imo, is to seek safety first, and eventually emotional stability and spiritual maturity will come outside of this toxic environment. We are not to cooperate with evil and sin or stay close to those who are abusing us. That is never required of us in any relationship.

I am going to add several links that I have found so helpful, but before I do I want to encourage you to get away the moment the situation has the potential to become abusive. Create a safety plan and if you need to call emergency services for help, do so. What you describe happening to you is very serious and talking your living situation through with a professional, figuring out a safety plan, and staying safe is your number one priority. That is honorable and God honoring. Removing yourself, God's precious, dearly loved child, from harm.

Let us know how you are doing. This is a monumental shift in your thinking and understanding, your choices and life focus. It may feel like you cannot live without your parents or that they will not be okay without you. But, I promise you... I promise you... you can and they will be who they are. You are stronger than you know and you are smart. You can make a plan and step into freedom and safety. Keep building support around yourself.

Here are some links I hope you will find helpful:

Emergency links: https://outofthefog.website/emergency
Personal Safety: https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/ensure-your-own-personal-safety
To chat live with a Domestic Violence counselor and talk through the risks you are currently facing:  https://www.thehotline.org


Luke 17:3 Ministries for Adult Child Abuse:  https://luke173ministries.org

Podcast by Lysa TerKuerst exploring abusive relationships from a Biblical perspective - Therapy & Theology: https://lysaterkeurst.com/therapy-and-theology/

Book Recommend: Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1626251703?tag=ouofthfo-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1

[PeaceBeStill]

Thank you so much for your earnest prayers, Bloomie. I'm also grateful for the links you've shared, I will be reading through the Luke 17:3 ministries website, along with the rest. These articles are speaking directly to me, I'm so thankful. I hope to hold on to these words as I continue to work out a way out of this situation I'm in.

I feel relief and comfort at being believed and sided with for once. Being understood and even finding people willing to take the time to pray for me. I certainly will use the words you've spoken over me to boost my courage and resolve in taking care of myself from now on. It was easy for me to be swayed into forgiving and reconciling, because I was wrong (and easy to manipulate) about my rights, in relation to my parents, from a Christian point of view (Luke 17:3). But now, there's someone backing me up. And scripture too. I can't wait to get the book you recommended.

[PeaceBeStill]

I'm so sorry about your mom, Invisibledaughter. I know how it is. It must have been a long wait, hoping she'd change.
My mother does the exact same thing. But when she's quiet for a while, not stirring trouble, I get worried that something's wrong and I get all emotional about how she may be going through something quietly, and I end up wanting to be there for her, I would even prefer her going about causing trouble and doing what she normally does just so I can be sure she's okay. I can't imagine living your whole life with a mother treating you like this and never changing, even at 48 when you're clearly adult and not likely to find the humour in her games. I thought, and still think,  my mum will change and that it's only a matter of time. Seems I could be wrong. She's 47. 

[MIB]

Dear PeaceBeStill,

You have received a lot of great insights and counsel from this wonderful forum.

Ah if I had a Dollar for everytime my father demanded that I "honour thy mother and father", I'd have a pretty solid down payment on a house by now 🤭 Ironically this came from a man who never went to church nor read the Bible...

I simply wanted to reinforce that "honouring thy Mother and Father" does *not* mean that you should accept abuse from them. Ever. I feel pretty confidently that God does not want any of his children to be abused, and would not look kindly on abusers.

There's a wonderful phrase in the Bible that Mother Theresa liked which was, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me" (Matthew 25:40, 45, NIV). I think that could also apply to what they did *TO* these brothers and sisters as well. Perhaps if they truly want to be people of God, they will remember that and act accordingly.

I have recently been reading work by Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hahn. His book "Peace is Every Breath" was very impactful and practical for me. It might be helpful in your situation.

Big hugs

[Cat of the Canals]

PeaceBeStill,
Your stories of your mother screaming at you and physically abusing you, your father stepping in only to make YOU apologize to her... these tell me all I need to know.

If you're occasionally rude, who can blame you? You are dealing with truly awful, disrespectful behavior. (Though I don't see anything in your post that strikes me as rude.)

As for "honoring thy parents," consider that you also have a responsibility to honor thyself, which means caring for yourself. Keeping yourself healthy and safe. That means limiting time with abusers. (Bonus: the less time you spend with them, the less rude you'll have to be!  )

I also don't believe that honor means absolute devotion. It doesn't mean smiling in the face of petty, vindictive, immature, and cruel behavior. You are a person just as worthy of honor and dignity as they are.

[Sojourner17]

I came across the following video done by a jewish rabbi who talks about the whole honor your father and mother line.  It's over an hour but well worth taking the time to listen. 

https://youtu.be/e2MSO5Hxvz8

He said as parents we can't lord it over our children and demand they honor us.  That commandment is for the children and their protection, not for the parents. 
Great parenting advice btw for those of us who will soon be, or already are parenting teens 😉.  I don't think you are in that category yet though!

He also talks about one of the final prophesies in the Old Testament in I believe the book of Malachi where it talks about the restoration and the turning of the parents to the children and the children then turning to the parents.  He says this hasn't really happened yet. 

In the Newer testament Jesus talks about Him coming and that parents will be turned away from their children (mother against daughter, mother in law against daughter in law, etc.) for His sake. 

I kind of think this may be where we are now in the LORDS timeline.  It's uncomfortable and hard but I think it's necessary.

I think it's nessesary because just maybe WE get to be the generation who fulfills the Malachi prophesy of parents turning toward their children.

It seems to be that you are still in your parental home and do not have children yet.  I can only imagine how hard it is right now. So I know the parenting part won't apply to you. But perhaps looking at it in a different way may help. As in looking at how the LORD parents us (slow to anger and abounding in love) and the Honor we can give Him by following His ways (despite our earthly parents). 

Don't lose hope or faith!  The Lord is with you wherever you go.  Now IF we are that generation who turns toward our children, then THEY will turn toward us. Not necessarily so we can lord over them but because it will be the LORD restoring right relationships.  What a wonderful promise to look forward to!

[Preamble]

I am so sorry you are going through this, Peacebestill.  I just have one thing to offer that may be of some help in thinking all this through.  Watch for any signs of your parents doing what they say, with regard to their own parents. 

Are they respectful, obedient, grateful to their own parents, or perhaps to their parents' memory? 

My uPD parent wanted so much from me, but when I consider their attitude to their own departed parents, I notice quite a contrast.

Please take good care of yourself

[NotCryingGlitter]

You're right, Sneezy. There is no way it is okay for one Child of God to be above God's own law of love, being more deserving of respect than another.

I'll have to remember this, to avoid falling back into the cycle. I tend to convince myself to forgive and give them another chance because I get mushy and hopeful they'll see how much I care about them. And in those moments where my mum wants what she wants and will use anyone in my life to get it from me, I tend to convince myself that it's parental love and that if I refuse to give in, I'll regret it and it'll be worse because I'll never hear the end of it. She's the kind of person who will parade my shame to the whole world for as long as she can as a lesson she is always right and that I must always obey her for my own good.
But no one deserves this. I'll be praying for strength, as Invisible Daughter suggests, and maybe put myself first in manifesting it.

It's crazy how alike our mothers are.

I could go on all day about the obedience thing, but I'll make it as short as I can. Living in the Bible Belt, it's a constant battle of trying to get people to recognize they are justifying abuse by taking verses out of context vs. trying to remember that some of these people are technically "good" people. Christians sometimes have too much trust in what they are taught WITHOUT studying for themselves as confirmation; the Bible is all about life-long study of it, but yet people tend to get an arrogance that they know everything, which is not true, simply from hearing and not studying.

If they would actually look it up vs. only listening to what others around them say, they would realize that the phrase "spare the rod, spoil the child" is not even a phrase that's in the Bible, yet they believe it is. There are preachers, who've supposedly read the whole Bible, who will tell you that exact phrase is in the Bible...it's not. It's from an generations old poem (Samuel Butler, I think) that used the words as an adaptation (that's the keyword) of multiple verses from Old Testament law. While we reference the Old Testament and learn from it, just like I've used below, the New Testament laws are what we live by. There are also many verses people take out of context (the story and situation of reference) and/or do not realize that use a lot of metaphorical language (Revelation, for example).

In Bible times, a rod is used as a staff, like a shepherd used to guide (not hit) sheep. A shepherd is there to guide and protect, not abuse. Psalm 23 says it all. And parents are to be a shepherd to their children.

"The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
2
He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
3
He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name's sake.

4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me."[/b]

The bible also says CHILDREN, obey your parents, not adults. And while the honoring part is in the same verse, talking to children, it does not mean honor bad behavior or people. If someone is leading you in the wrong direction or behaving badly, the Bible does not tell you to obey them (it warns against false prophets, for instance). If a parent is teaching devil worshiping to a child, the Bible is not going to teach obedience to that specific parent. People also neglect to mention the 2nd part of the Eph 6. verse, about anger...

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord."

Additionally, people will leave out 1st Cor. 13, which highlights the differences in children and adult behavior expectations/standards.

11 "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

[NotCryingGlitter]

Thank you so much, InvisibleDaughter.

It's scary, though, that the only way to deal is to find busy myself and detach my life from them. Is it silly that, after all the manipulation, when the anger and frustration has died down, that my thought go to this place where I'm willing and hoping to work on my relationship with them?

Leaving them on their own feels like I'm abandoning them. Betraying them for having raised me, because I know their PD isn't all they are. This is the conflict I have with myself.
That I'm grateful for the good they've done, my dad especially. But also, that in their superiority as parents, I cannot "teach" them how to parent me.

I go away for a few weeks and then return, and I can keep myself busy and away, but I always come back, worried about how they're doing.

Just remember, you are no longer a child; adults are not commanded to obey parents. Even the King James version says "children", when talking about obeying. Unconditional "love" is not the definition of sincere love...it's manipulation and control.

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."

"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

I understand it's a complicated feeling, but you can be grateful for good things they've done, still love them, and not condone abuse at the same time. You can love them in a Christian way and still hate the behavior. In the video below, it talks about how there are people who want the abuse to end, but not the relationship...at least, that can be the hope. Unfortunately, though, it doesn't tend to work out that way in the end, unless the abuser takes responsibility.

[NotCryingGlitter]

But I suppose that even changed something in me fo her because I knew, finally, after several similar incidents, that she..they're never going to be there for me if the world took a hit at me. And it would, but so do they. I knew, I was on my own.

Please be willing to consider talking to a women's shelter about a plan of action for you. Reading more about her...unless a "miracle" happens, she won't ever change, and I can tell you that from experience.

[NotCryingGlitter]

It was easy for me to be swayed into forgiving and reconciling, because I was wrong (and easy to manipulate) about my rights, in relation to my parents, from a Christian point of view (Luke 17:3). But now, there's someone backing me up. And scripture too. I can't wait to get the book you recommended.

Forgiveness is about you, not the abuser. You don't have to forget or condone in order to forgive. It's about taking emotional control back, in a sense. Someone else here can explain it better than I can.

Other than the Bible, make sure any books that reference abuse are e-books, so your parents never see them, unless you are confident that you have a good place to hide them.

I'm so sorry about your mom, Invisibledaughter. I know how it is. It must have been a long wait, hoping she'd change.
My mother does the exact same thing. But when she's quiet for a while, not stirring trouble, I get worried that something's wrong and I get all emotional about how she may be going through something quietly, and I end up wanting to be there for her, I would even prefer her going about causing trouble and doing what she normally does just so I can be sure she's okay. I can't imagine living your whole life with a mother treating you like this and never changing, even at 48 when you're clearly adult and not likely to find the humour in her games. I thought, and still think,  my mum will change and that it's only a matter of time. Seems I could be wrong. She's 47. 

It's the quiet before the storm -- take what calmness you can. If she's quiet, it's best to just avoid her and be grateful for the break, or she'll start drama as soon as you interact with her.

There will never be humor in the games they play, because it's abusive. Unfortunately, unless they take responsibility, which is rare, she won't ever change, no matter how old she is. Because she won't admit she's wrong. Other than elderly limitations, most of the time, they only get worse. Graduating college CAN be your ticket to freedom, BUT it can also be a ticket to a longer prison sentence without that safer place to go to, which is why it's best to move as soon as possible.