Boundaries: who can help with them, who can't

[Poison Ivy]

I recently went on a trip (which I've mentioned in other posts) that included my adult children and my ex-husband. I was telling some coworkers about the trip, and one of them, with whom I've talked before about my ex, looked at me with horror when I referred to some of the details of the trip. Her reaction was appropriate. I spent so much time with my ex on this trip only because doing so seemed necessary, but it wasn't pleasant and I'm feeling emotionally battered since returning.

I decided that I need better boundaries. (Thank you to Out of the FOG and all who come here: You help me!)

This morning, I asked my siblings whether they could help me if they sense that I'm making poor decisions about my interactions with my ex. One brother responded in such a way that I realized, "Okay, some of my difficulties with boundary setting come from my bio family!"

Here's my question: Who or what (in addition to this forum) helps you set and hold boundaries? Thank you!

[notrightinthehead]

I recently had an opportunity to set and enforce a boundary. I spent time with relatives and we sat together in the evening, talking and having some beers. We were discussing relationships. The one person got more and more emotional and accused me of never having his back. When he started to yell, I calmly said, I am not going to talk anymore, this has gotten very upset and we all need to calm down. Then I got up and left the room.
Next day, we spoke calmly and I said that I will not allow myself anymore to be yelled at. And we could finish the conversation somewhat amicably. Baby steps, I know.
I made rules for myself. The behavior I no longer am willing to tolerate and what I will do when it happens. I have started small with few rules. But I feel that I look after myself better now.
Good luck!

[Poison Ivy]

Thank you, notrightinthehead.

[SonofThunder]

Hi Poison Ivy,

My foray into boundaries first started with truly understanding the definition; what a boundary is and what it isn't.  I also had to know who I was, before I could even begin reconstruction.  If I had no true realization just who I was, how did I know what I was going to protect in order to alter?  If I didnt understand the PD, how could I build proper boundaries that detoured the PD around my construction zone, not through the middle. 

I was brainwashed as a child, into believing that a PDfather had my best interest in mind, but many decades later the same realization happened about my spouse. I finally had the covers pulled back from my life of groomed blindness, and the truth exposed; I was a highly trained caretaker; I allowed myself to be emotionally trained in the PD-cult of being willing and energetic prey for the hungry predator, who kept disguised as a loved-one. 

I had to accept that I had been duped, and that the real me was in there somewhere.  I set out to devour as much understanding about the predator as I could, in order outsmart and therefore begin to create the safe spaces to start reconstructing my life. Using the toolbox properly, the predator started to miss their target. Although, hungry predators just get hungrier, and they turn up the creativity to wear down the prey so predator feeding can occur. 

Once I knew who they were, and knew who I was, I had a understanding of the goal of my self-protective boundaries.  My boundaries were created to provide me a more peaceful, energetic environment that allowed me to continue self improvement, by protecting who, what, where and when. 

A highway reconstruction crew must plan their entire strategy in an office somewhere before they ever erect the first barricade.  The barricade does not erect to punish the drivers, but protect the workers and the forward movement of the plans created prior in that office.  The construction crew needs to know their capabilities, the capabilities of the drivers who would need to be redirected around the barricade, and the entire end-to-end plan of the reconstruction that will occur safely behind the proper barricade.  All of this before they ever set foot on the highway. 

Boundaries is indeed located in the Out of the FOG toolbox, but imo, it is a foundational tool.  Imo, many of the other tools found in the Out of the FOG toolbox cannot operate properly without the self-protective boundaries in position, and same with the highway. Without the self-protective barricade, the highway reconstruction cannot occur, period. The people and equipment that operate inside the barricade cannot do so effectively and safely without the strong, proper barricade. 

Again, boundaries are not punishment, yet the outsider who run into our boundaries, experience what they believe to be punishment.  Out motive is everything in creating boundaries, and that is a very fine line between self-protection and punishment.  The motive should always be self-protection to begin/continue self-reconstruction. We must self-protect against and for the who, what, where and when. 

What was the goal of the trip for you?  You wrote:

"I spent so much time with my ex on this trip only because doing so seemed necessary, but it wasn't pleasant and I'm feeling emotionally battered since returning."

The future who-boundary is the ex. Being around the ex was prey-draining.  If the goal is spending quality time with adult children inside a protective barricade and the ex needs a detour, then the boundary needed is about the who.

Again, motive is always self protection so that you may accomplish goals and healthy, efficient, emotionally building experiences (not battered).  The goals are the good things that can occur within the self-protective boundary.

In highway reconstruction, the team plans the goals for the project and then determines the barricades (boundary) necessary to accomplish the goals in the timeliness of the planning. 

Boundary of Who?= what, where and when to assist the goals.
Boundary of What?= who, where and when to assist the goals.
Boundary of Where?= who, what and when to assist the goals. 
Boundary of When?= who, what and where to assist the goals.

Being battered by who-time with a PD on a trip, doesn't necessarily mean the  what, where and when were poorly planned, just the who.  Can you plan a future trip and creatively barricade the PD from attending but include the adult children? 

SoT

[escapingman]

Great reply SoT.

With my FOO whi I don't really know who is a PD or not but that the entire aetup is toxic for me. I had all of them keep ignoring my boundaries and last summer it culminated. I explained calmly to all of them that due to some of them catching Covid I was not going to see any of them during the rest of my stay nearby. They all kept asking to see me and gave all excuses until I had to go home without telling them. Since then I have been very low contact with all of them, I broke it for one weekend as I needed help with looking after DD so saw my sister. I knew her tricks so went OK, but until I believe something might change I will keep to it. My mental health can't take being surrounded by people who cannot take a simple 'No'.

[square]

I recently went on a trip (which I've mentioned in other posts) that included my adult children and my ex-husband. I was telling some coworkers about the trip, and one of them, with whom I've talked before about my ex, looked at me with horror when I referred to some of the details of the trip. Her reaction was appropriate. I spent so much time with my ex on this trip only because doing so seemed necessary, but it wasn't pleasant and I'm feeling emotionally battered since returning.

I decided that I need better boundaries. (Thank you to Out of the FOG and all who come here: You help me!)

This morning, I asked my siblings whether they could help me if they sense that I'm making poor decisions about my interactions with my ex. One brother responded in such a way that I realized, "Okay, some of my difficulties with boundary setting come from my bio family!"

Here's my question: Who or what (in addition to this forum) helps you set and hold boundaries? Thank you!

[NarcKiddo]

Boundaries are for you and in many cases don't need to be communicated; simply enforced.

I might ask my husband to help me with a physical boundary if, say, I was ill in hospital and did not want a particular person to contact me. Although the hospital staff ask you in advance, so they in fact would be the ones enforcing it. But he would probably be the one having to put up with the reaction of the person denied access to me.

I might ask my therapist what she thinks about a boundary or how I might go about creating and enforcing one.

I'm not sure that it's practicable or fair to ask others to speak up if they think you are making poor decisions as regards your ex. They are not privy to your whole relationship with the ex. Things like "I am trying to lose weight, please speak up if you see me going off the rails and ordering a third cake when we are having a meal out" is something objective you could ask others to help with. I think it's fine to indicate that it is OK for them to express views and concerns if they have them. Your co-worker did just that and you have said it was an appropriate reaction and made you think about your boundaries. I know I would feel very uncomfortable if someone effectively asked me to police their relationship.

[Poison Ivy]

Thank you for the additional comments, all of which help whether or not they are pro-me. (I need to improve my ability to accept constructive criticism.)

One of my brothers said, "Why was it a problem sharing a hotel room with [ex's name]"? At this point, I'll just say that this question helped me realize that some of the codependency I sometimes exhibit is a behavior this brother exhibits.

I will not expect this brother to understand or support me. My sister does understand my struggles, and I told her today that I'm preparing myself for the next time the issue of overnight accommodations for my ex comes up. Adult child will be visiting my home, adult child might not want to go to ex's house because he lives a long distance and he is a hoarder and doesn't clean his house, ex might come to my house, and in the past I've let him stay here. So, yes, my boundary, and I have to set it and not back down.

[JustKeepTrying]

Poison Ivy,

I have been working on boundaries for years now and it is ever evolving. I have learned that being fluid here is ok. Changing your mind on a boundary is ok. It is the experience and learning that inform your boundary and if you need to change it - do so. If you need to say no to your ex and adult children to protect your peace - you owe no one an explanation.

As for the development of my boundaries - I was taught as a good Catholic girl that there is no such thing. I was to serve at the pleasure of God and my parents. I had no autonomy. So to learn boundaries is to rebel against decades of conditioning.  Many of which came from society and media - not just religion.

So when I began to work on my own, with my therapist, I developed a set of values.  I googled the word values and found a list of over 600 value words. And over a period of weeks, I picked five that resonated with me.  I wrote them on my bathroom mirror and put them on my cell home screen. Every action and decision I have made is through the lens of these values.  If I feel in my body any tension, I try to listen and ask myself if that is because the decision or action I am making is violating a value. If it is, there is an indication that I am allowing a boundary to be crossed. 

Boundaries can be crossed by others but they are almost always crossed by yourself. Because you allow the boundary to be crossed.  I am also working on assertive communication and trust in myself. Mindfulness is helpful as well because it has helped me identify those feelings and learn to identify them and choose to react to them.

I hope this helps and I am sending you strength on your journey.

[Poison Ivy]

Thank you, JustKeepTrying. I like your suggestion of creating and posting value words.

[Kat54]

These are great thoughts and information. I'm just learning about boundaries which I never grew up with in a dysfunctional and abusive home.

I want to start enforcing some boundaries with my family and my ex mostly. He's not in my life alot but when he is it does send me into feeling a. Sorry for him b. He's a narcissist and always poor him so I fall into that. C. I want to run and get far away.
I moved an hour away to create some space so I could restart my life on my terms without my ex making my life miserable. But if I'm around him he's very manipulative. I can't be around that behavior anymore or if I am I need to step away.
My kids want us to get along which I can but I won't put up with his crazy behavior.

[Poison Ivy]

Thank you for the reply, kat54. One of my children and her friend will be visiting me starting next week, so the possibility of ex being around is again quite top of mind. I was close to having an anxiety attack last night as I thought about saying to ex, "You can't stay here [at my, what used to be our, house]." I think I need to get into the mindset that all I need to do is say the words and that beating myself up for being a bad person because I don't want him to stay here is not necessary and is counterproductive.

[moglow]

One of my brothers said, "Why was it a problem sharing a hotel room with [ex's name]"? At this point, I'll just say that this question helped me realize that some of the codependency I sometimes exhibit is a behavior this brother exhibits.


I will not expect this brother to understand or support me. My sister does understand my struggles, and I told her today that I'm preparing myself for the next time the issue of overnight accommodations for my ex comes up.

Snarky me responding to your brother [accompanied by baffled wtf look]: "It's a problem because they aren't married anymore, with good reason. He's an adult and can find his own accommodations for the night, whatever doesn't include me. If you want to share a room with him, fine, do that. We choose otherwise." I can say that because it would never occur to me or my brothers to question such a thing - if they ASK the ex to stay, that's one thing, otherwise the answer is and will remain No. We don't much buy into guilt.

Stand up and keep standing up, Poison Ivy. You're not his keeper. You're not responsible for his choices. You have your own, you planned ahead and saw to them well in advance. He can do the same or go right on back to his hoardfest.

[Cat of the Canals]

I was close to having an anxiety attack last night as I thought about saying to ex, "You can't stay here [at my, what used to be our, house]."

I have such a hard time with things like this. I especially hate if no invitation is extended, but it's clear the other person just assumes they'll be staying at my house. What worked well with my PDmil was suggesting hotels/areas she might book, which was a subtle way of telling her she wasn't staying here. 

So you might ask your ex: "What hotel will you be staying at?" If he tries to pull a "I thought I could stay at your house..." just give a polite, "Oh, that won't be possible. Sorry!" No explanation. No excuse. Just a firm no.

[Breadroll]

It's very tricky to deal with the expectation of the ex- especially if the assumption is supported by family. " if pushed on the  "it's impossible " is there a plausible fictional external reason to give ? - eg you have other guest/ house has been rented out.

Enjoying SoTs traffic construction planning and barriers analogy - thank you for that one!