“I had a great childhood!”

[Call Me Cordelia]

The kids and I are NC with my DH's whole family. For 4 years now. He is VVVLC with his parents and sister. NC with the rest of the family. He's been discarded for not getting me back in line. They just didn't care to rock the boat and threw DH under the bus. They even told him at one point that if I was NC and we were still married there wasn't much point to their relationship!

We've been going to a counselor, alone and recently started going together. A deep issue in our marriage is his extreme emotional distancing from me. I get very little connection from him. Avoidant attachment style to the max. It's been an issue all along but as I've gotten more in tune with my own humanity I'm just not happy with that. My own childhood was extremely invalidating and now this feels like more of the same from my DH, even though I know he is a good man.

Really I've wanted him to go NC and just wash his hands of them for good, but he won't. I know that's not my call, etc. But he hangs on to this rosy view and I'm just projecting my bad childhood onto them in his view. Yes, his parents aren't perfect... but not as bad as I think. Maybe so. But bad enough.

He was going on last night about how they were always proud of him, bragging about him to other family members and friends, anyways building him up and the whole vibe in their house was overwhelmingly positive, he was so open with his uN mom and could and did share just about everything... in stark contrast to my parents who responded to my accomplishments with, "Don't get a big head there's always someone better than you."

I wanted to barf. Yes, there were relative positives there but if they loved you so much how are we even here? He didn't say this outright but the obvious answer is Cordelia is the problem. Ugh ugh ugh.

We have a pattern where he withdraws and I escalate. It goes something like, "DH I'm sad." He puts his arm out full length and gives me a pat on the  shoulder. I'm not satisfied with that (duh) so I express the emotion more strongly. He feels attacked and he even said it felt abusive. I guarantee there was no abuse. But my emotions make him feel under attack regularly. I've been feeling worse and worse and his efforts at "appeasing" me just make me angry. We've had a few of these end in stormy tears for me.

If his childhood was so supportive why the hell would he be so avoidant?

[NarcKiddo]

He was going on last night about how they were always proud of him, bragging about him to other family members and friends, anyways building him up and the whole vibe in their house was overwhelmingly positive, he was so open with his uN mom and could and did share just about everything...

Your post resonates. My father is very like your DH and my mother, although she is the worst in my FOO, finds it very difficult. I can see what. My father seems not to have any emotions at all - at least not big ones.

But the part of your post I have quoted stands out to me the most and not in a good way.

My mother likes nothing better than to brag about us to friends and family. She will go so far as to say that if the reality is not good enough we are to lie to them. Now, maybe your DH's parents were genuinely as described but this does not sit right with me. It smacks definitely of being loved conditionally, if you meet the standards set. The particular red flag is that he could and did share just about everything with his mother. Sounds like enmeshment to me, given what you say about his behaviour now.

There has to be a reason for him being so low contact with his parents. If the relationship was that good, what happened?

That said, when I first started coming Out of the FOG as regards my mother I could be very volatile. Sometimes my husband could point something out about her and I was OK. Mostly I would bite his head off. The old "family loyalty" was coming out - it was OK for me to set the parameters of what was being held against her, but God forbid anyone else try to say anything.

And although you are probably right that his parents are at the root of his emotional issues, if he is not ready to accept that, you may just be alienating him further by pursuing that line. Maybe you need to concentrate only on how you want him to treat you. Perhaps the subject of his parents and childhood could be off the table for discussion between you or if you are both in the same therapy session. Just for a while, at least, to see if that makes any difference.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thank you. I agree with your assessment completely. What happened in the relationship with his parents? Well the narrative is I happened. I couldn't take it anymore from them. I was too damaged by my parents and had no self-esteem and just couldn't handle the IL's either, to have a "two-way" relationship with them whatever the hell that means. I took away my FIL's playmate ten years before he was supposed to find a wife. FIL was about to take his neglected boy off the shelf but the cat's in the cradle. I influenced DH to have a different sort of life than they had scripted for him. I tied him down with all these kids and religion. I "won." And now I want MORE from him?!?

Well that's one version of the really warped the story I'm hearing. I'm pretty much just hurting and wondering if it's ever going to get better. I just for once in my life want to feel unconditional unguarded love.

[treesgrowslowly]

I sympathize. If he is not willing to look at his childhood, then it makes it very hard for you to have that connection that you want. Instead of connecting to him, you're stuck with this narrative that he's using as a shield, and you're supposed to agree with him (about his parents) and come to his side.

Problem is, you see the truth and the reality. They were not very capable parents. You realized that there was no healthy relationship possible with his parents, and you took steps to ensure you don't spend your life dealing with their drama.

It doesn't sound like he sees this. He has not individuated from them emotionally. He is protecting his story regarding his childhood. It sounds like he wants you to agree with him. He wants you to agree with a false narrative about his childhood. This will never happen - as an outsider we can see things realistically. For him, he's defending a narrative that he's had about his parents his entire life. The story is what is important to him.

It's really hard when one person in the relationship is in the FOG and the other is not.

I think that one way forward here is for the person who is Out of the FOG, hits pause on the discussions where he tries to convince you he's right, and you do likewise. He has his beliefs about his parents, and you have yours.

Few couples end up with changed beliefs after conversations or arguments. Beliefs are deeply held inside of us. It is unlikely you'll ever agree with what he believes about his FOO.

So why the arguments? Because we are hurting, and our partner is not acknowledging this. In my experience, it is really hard to take the topic off the table, before our partner has acknowledged how we feel.

They are so busy defending themselves and their parents that they just get stuck in that defensive state - and blame others for any conflict they've been the victim of (their narrative tends to cast them as the victim).

He and you may never share the same beliefs about your parents, and it is possible to find a truce around that. But a marriage becomes really stressful when the partners are not acknowledging each other's emotions. It is possible for him to acknowledge how you feel, without sharing your belief about his parents. This could require some counselling sessions in order to keep the conversation focused. It is pretty likely to veer into wanting to explain how you feel. Which will very likely put him into a defensive state. As soon as you try to explain why you are upset, he starts to defend himself and his parents. Is that accurate?

It is hard when one person in the marriage is awake to what their childhood really was like, and the other person is still in denial about the childhood neglect or abuse they experienced. They are not on the same page. You wrote that you are becoming more aware of your humanity. That sounds a lot like you are doing important recovery work from childhood trauma. And sadly, your husband is not doing that same work yet.

And what is really really unfortunate is that as one person in the marriage is finding her way to some realizations about her childhood, all of the humility, honesty and vulnerability she is now seeking, is used as ammunition by the partner who is in the avoidant defensive state.

From where he sits, everything you do / did, is 'bad' or a reason to stay avoidant / emotionally unavailable. Your vulnerability gets used against you. Instead of feeling understood, you end up being attacked because in his mind, you are the 'bad guy' in the story.

He's not just rejecting you, he's rejecting the need to reckon with his own childhood.

You can probably see so many good outcomes that could arise out of his work - if he were to reckon with his childhood -but he can't see it.

Not everyone with a crummy childhood is ready to get out of the denial / avoidant / defensive state they got into to survive that childhood. Some of us do, some of us don't get out of that denial state.

It is very hard to get Out of the FOG, and it is hard to get Out of the FOG when our partner isn't able to support our work to do so. This has happened to many of us on the boards.

When the wife gets Out of the FOG and he's still in the FOG, it really sucks. At a time in her life where she would benefit from a lot of emotional support from her husband, she's being told that she's the problem and she's causing him problems.

He can't see much - he believes that his childhood was 'good' or 'great', and has no idea that his avoidance is tied to what actually happened back in  his childhood. Even though his wife now understands this about her childhood (and his), he's not there with her for any of those realizations.

Few of us get Out of the FOG at the same time as our partner.

It is a hard place to be. My heart goes out to you. It is perfectly fine to tell yourself you're going to give yourself a week or two break from dealing with this topic with him.

It sounds like you are not getting the support from him that you need. In that situation, it makes sense to pull away and do your work on your own for a while.

The more work you do on yourself, the more defensive he will feel because he's in daily contact now with someone who is doing the trauma recovery / FOG recovery work that he's not doing. Note that as a child, he had to go into a FOG state in order to fit into his FOO. And now, that is where he still lives. In the FOG state. You are not in a FOG state, so you are already in different places in your lives now. The conflict is arising out of this difference.

Hopefully he can learn how to support you in your work, even if he chooses never to embark on his own work to understand his childhood. It can be tricky. One of your emotional needs, is to have him understand your work to be Out of the FOG. Can he really appreciate the work you're doing for yourself, when he's still in his own FOG? He's not done the Out of the FOG work you have. 

Adult children in the FOG tend to have a narrative that involves a justification for their avoidance, because it is the narrative they lived with growing up. Their parents avoided their emotional needs back when they were a child. So the child grows up to become a husband who then says to his wife "your emotional needs are not really my problem". The husband now treats his wife to the same neglect he was treated to as a child. The generational pattern continues.

It is a heart-aching place to be. Hang in there.

Trees

[bloomie]

Call Me Cordelia - my heart aches along with you as you walk what is a very lonely road! A foundational part of marital intimacy is that this is THE only place where we have the opportunity to be truly seen, known, and experience compassion and support at the deepest level. It is excruciating when we find our H's see our emotional needs as a problem or burden or something to avoid. I am so sorry.

When I first landed here at Out of the FOG I came for very similar issues as you describe in my marriage and in law relationships. I can honestly say I had tried everything to awaken what was an indifferent heart in my H toward me... and well... most of his relationships.

It was a kinda of default position of his to gravitate toward the path of least resistance and the status quo. I know now, it was a slothful way of engaging in the world. Not in the physical sense - hardworking and a good, faithful provider, but emotionally and relationally distant and awkward seeking easy every single time.

When one person takes that posture it works to insulate them in a very unhealthy way, ime. They always 'look' like the good guy living at the mercy of a driven, controlling, determined woman. And, believe you me, passivity and refusal to do the work needed to come to terms with the impact of their inability to show empathy, loyalty and genuine caring toward us is not being a good guy. It is self serving and destructive to anyone in relationship with them, but especially to us as intimate partners.

A dear and wise friend once told me this: "We teach our family members how to treat our spouse." In my own case, I have found that to be so true. My H being double minded about me in our relationship and taking a passive role, refusing to take determined steps to free us of the entanglements he had with his FOO taught them that I was the problem and if I were out of the way they would have their son/brother back.

You know how I know that? They outright told me many times. And he did nothing. And he stayed in the same position of closeness in business, where we went to church, spending vacations and holidays with them as always even after this was stated and he could acknowledge their toxic behaviors and words toward me. He was because it didn't directly impact him. Ouch!!! Did that hurt!!!

There was so much dysfunction in DH's home and in their relationships. And with all of my heart I knew that if he didn't deal with his stuff he would not ever be able to level up in our marriage and family life.

So, what did I do? After trying everything? I quietly shifted my focus to my own healing only. I began to read and got a T just for me and an mentor. I stepped back from his family and zipped my lips. If he came home with frustrations and once again some new drama with them I would respond: "hmm... sorry to hear that." and keep on keeping on. He had to feel his own feelings and work through it himself, or not.

I stopped feeling all of the feelings for both of us and began to grow... and bloom... and find joy again. This did create distance between my H and me because I was no longer looking to him for support, comfort, empathy. He did not have those things to give me. And I grieved that and found healthy, appropriate support elsewhere with the understanding that there may never be a deeper kind of connection with my H.

It has been a long road, but there has been a great deal of forward movement in our lives. DH has had to do his work or get left behind in a sense because I refused to engage in dysfunction and allow it in my home any longer.

I will say this, and it may be controversial here at Out of the FOG, but I believe you do have a voice in how your DH's continuing to have a relationship with his family after they have identified you as a problem, have hurt and disrespected you, is disloyal and damaging to your relationship.

Anyone or anything that is damaging, or potentially damaging, to your marriage - a sacred relationship that provides a covering of safety and protection, that is meant to be a place of thriving for both of you and your children, should be very seriously considered.

How your DH handles the messages he is sending and the potential, or actual, damage from his continued deaf ears and blind eyes he may have about his FOO is very important and you do have a voice in that. Another piece of wise advise I received is: "Say what you need to say. Say it once and then leave it there."

So there is a time to speak and a time to be silent. A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing. You are wise! You will know. Trust yourself!

Sending you strength and support! This is hard!

[Poison Ivy]

Bloomie, thank you for this post. It resonates with me very much, even though I'm now divorced.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thank you both so very much. I'd like to sit with your words for a while. I would like to clarify though that he is in the in-between right now. He had looked a little at his childhood. He has acknowledged many things that were not right. He has set boundaries with them and stuck to them, some purely out of loyalty to me. But I am not satisfied. The narrative is not dead. He wavers back and forth between FOG and not-FOG. We are going to counseling specifically to improve intimacy. And that whole process is proving incredibly difficult and painful. He's doing this push-pull within himself of doing the thing he knows he's supposed to do vs. the familiar and comfortable Vulcan approach to life and wife. But at no point have I ever felt desired or that he would have ever pursued this without my insistence. I can convince him intellectually, sometimes, but the heart? Who knows.

Bloomie, I'm honestly afraid of "leaving him behind" as you describe. I'll have to sit with that too.

[Cat of the Canals]

My mother likes nothing better than to brag about us to friends and family. She will go so far as to say that if the reality is not good enough we are to lie to them. Now, maybe your DH's parents were genuinely as described but this does not sit right with me. It smacks definitely of being loved conditionally, if you meet the standards set.

 

That was very much the dynamic in my family, and one of the reasons it took me much longer to suss out the dysfunction than say, my husband. If everyone puts on a good show, my mother is happy. So naturally, we were all deeply conditioned to always achieve and perform and put on the façade of perfection to keep her happy. We were literally rewarded for doing so. And punished for not. It was an obvious choice. And the longer you keep her happy, the more you can believe the lie that "everything is great." I would go so far as to say it was a form of brainwashing.

So I wonder if something similar is going on with your husband. I mean, you'd think everything that's happened since you went NC would be a clue. The fact that his family's response was to demand he get you "back in line" is so telling. Any family where there's a huge sign that reads "DON'T ROCK THE BOAT" is a big ol' red flag, to me.

I don't really have a point other than offering some insight as to why he might be clinging to this "everything was great" narrative. The most painful part of my journey was realizing how very conditional my mom's love truly is.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thanks, Cat. And if it's conditional... it's NOT love!    

[bloomie]

Cordelia - to be very clear...not saying leave him behind. Saying that when we choose to dedicate ourselves to health and healing it may mean we are moving forward when the one we love so dearly may choose not to, be able to, or be ready to fully. 

I get where you are at. Where he sees dimly, but he vacillates. And I have great compassion for that very hard in between place. I trust you will know the best path forward for your life and family because I know your heart is good and true!