Advice on how to respond

[Hilltop]

So I had a moment with my mother and my husband suggested I offer going to counselling with my mother to try to sort things out. After not hearing back I sent a text saying I was blocking her and going NC.  She sent a message to my husband asking him to forward a text for her as I may have blocked her.  In explaining this she said I was upset and explained in her exact words "asked if I would consider counselling to resolve the issues she (hilltop) feels we have".

When I read this I saw the part that says 'she feels we have'.  My mother has a history of blaming me. In reading this I took it that my mother feels she herself doesn't have any issues.  She insults me, doesn't apologise, takes no accountability and just says move on.  However she said she was open to going to counselling.

My husband said it may be good to go to counselling and confront her to get it off my chest. Part of me thinks it may be good to go to counselling and see if she takes accountability. Ask her about the insults in an environment she can't hide in.  I would want to ask direct questions to get explanations on things she has said and done.

Part of me wonders if I should go to counselling alone, apparently I'm the only one who needs healing as its my issues.  Is it worth it if that's my mothers opinion that its my issues.  Then the counsellor can bring mother in if she feels it will help.

Part of me is worried if my mother has narc traits it may be supply to her. Should I go alone to start with and see where it goes.  I also haven't had great experiences with counsellors in the past and maybe it would be good to vett one first.

Then how do I word it in response to my mother.  My husband said to leave it at that I'll find a therapist. I feel I should be more open and say that as her wording implies its my concern that I will go alone to start with but if the counsellor feels its a viable option I will contact her.

My husband doesn't really have much knowledge of narc behaviour, he just thinks its weird behaviour, so he is more inclined to just jump in to counselling together. What do people think?

Should I go together or alone and how do I word it so its a reasonable reply.

[NotCryingGlitter]

I would look up groups/therapists that specifically deal with narcissism and have at least one visit with them alone, to help you come up with the best plan of action. You can ask a local women's shelter for suggestions on where to find this type of counseling, as they deal with narcissistic abuse all the time.

[Leonor]

This is a test of the Hilltop Emergency Alert System.

This is only a test.

This is your mother's way of running roughshod over your boundary by triangulating with your husband, dangling the carrot of therapy, and sneaking in a dose of snark with that passive aggressive comment about the issues you "think" you have.

NC is NC is NC.

The way to respond is to not respond.

Stay NC. Find a trauma informed therapist and work on you and your healing.

Later on you can decide if a session is right for you.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Ugh. I read your other post too and I 100% see what you see about her refusing to take any responsibility for her treating you so terribly. I will also say that you being hurt by her hurtful behavior is a normal response!!! Is it your issue, yes, I suppose, in the sense that a person who is punched in the face has to deal with the pain. And the sanest response to being punched in the face is to do what you can to keep it from happening again. "Issues she feels we have," indeed! And so much for her "respecting your wishes" by going through your husband to text you over your block.

As far as seeing whether she takes accountability, I personally think you already have your answer. The best predictor of future behavior being past behavior and all. But whether she does or not is kind of beside the point. I am seeing a conflict between the desire to salvage your relationship with your mother and the desire to take good care of yourself. You blocked her for a reason.

The book "Toxic Parents" deals extensively with confronting the parent in a counseling setting. Maybe that would be helpful to you as you sort through all this. But if you do, do it for YOU. As I recall the book is very clear that the point of the confrontation is exclusively for the good of the adult child. And yes, a lot of self-work needs to happen first for that confrontation to be effective.

In other words, no mom, we are not going to be using counseling as an exercise in rug-sweeping. Nice "try". It's really not enough to just get it off your chest. I think your husband probably means well but as with so many of us, even many therapists, narcissistic behavior is simply above our pay grade. Whether you confront her in the end or not, I hope you find the support you need. Being at the point of going NC you are clearly in a lot of pain, and have been carrying this hurt what sounds like your entire life. It is very lonely and even your dear husband cannot really understand it, as much as he wants to help. There ARE resources for you, and it really does get better.

[Cat of the Canals]

I don't think I'd tell her anything about your counselling if you go, because right now it's for you. (And really always should be for you.) She hasn't exactly demonstrated any willingness to take it seriously, so I wouldn't take her "offer" as a genuine one. Her bringing it up is nothing more than a carrot she's dangling now that you've gone NC. It's bait.

If you say anything (or have your husband relay a message), I think it would be better to reiterate that your are asking for some time away and for her to not contact you for the time being. If you reach a point where counselling with her makes sense, then address it then. But right now I think that topic is neither here nor there.

[Hilltop]

I knew it was right to run it by here first.  With more time to think I agree the counselling was offered as a last ditch effort.

The words 'she feels we have' stuck with me though. Is it possible in her mind this really is solely my issue. A lifetime of handling slights and yes my issue is really about accepting that she is this person who will say whatever she likes and its up to me to handle my feelings regardless of that. My feelings are my responsibility. That is a lot of counselling to be had if that issue were to resolve.

I have been carrying this hurt for a lifetime. At first NC seemed harsh, like its an angry response.  But possible for me its a retreat. For me its saying no I cant live with this type of relationship, it is too hurtful and not trustworthy and so I can love you from afar because that is the last option available considering she has over a lifetime demonstrated that my feelings are my responsibility and she will not alter her behaviour as she doesn't see any issue with how she speaks or acts.  Going to counselling would be just saying it again, I've said it a thousand times.

I think any counselling will be for me alone and NC stands as I heal.
Thanks for clarifying this issue and steering in the right direction.  It means so much.

[Leonor]

Oh, I think the idea of NC as a healing retreat is lovely. Like a meditation retreat, or spa retreat.

Somewhere that is not uncomfortable or angry or punishing, but quiet and introspective and even peaceful.

Somewhere to focus and recenter, to gain perspective and insight, to remove your awareness from the emotional hurricane and bring it to a place of light and inner consciousness.

And then, Hilltop, you may find that you are best able to stay in a place of love towards your mom from a distance, but instead of aching over the distance, to find relief there.

[Cat of the Canals]

The words 'she feels we have' stuck with me though. Is it possible in her mind this really is solely my issue. A lifetime of handling slights and yes my issue is really about accepting that she is this person who will say whatever she likes and its up to me to handle my feelings regardless of that. My feelings are my responsibility. That is a lot of counselling to be had if that issue were to resolve.

I suspect it is most definitely a "you" problem, in her mind. There's no shared responsibility in a relationship with a narcissist. No 50% rule.  They behave poorly as often as they want, and you're supposed to "get over it." You're being too sensitive. You always take things the wrong way. I can't say anything without you getting all upset!

I doubt any amount of counselling would convince her otherwise. The PDs I know will never admit a fault or mistake -- they seem to avoid anything that might cause them feelings of guilt or shame, almost to the degree of having a phobia about it. It's like the worst scenario they could imagine themselves being in is one where they'd have to say, "Hey, I messed up. I'm sorry." And so they deflect and blame and project instead, in hopes they can wriggle out of any feeling of true responsibility.

[moglow]

The words 'she feels we have' stuck with me though. Is it possible in her mind this really is solely my issue. A lifetime of handling slights and yes my issue is really about accepting that she is this person who will say whatever she likes and its up to me to handle my feelings regardless of that. My feelings are my responsibility. That is a lot of counselling to be had if that issue were to resolve.


I have been carrying this hurt for a lifetime. At first NC seemed harsh, like its an angry response.  But possible for me its a retreat. For me its saying no I cant live with this type of relationship, it is too hurtful and not trustworthy and so I can love you from afar because that is the last option available considering she has over a lifetime demonstrated that my feelings are my responsibility and she will not alter her behaviour as she doesn't see any issue with how she speaks or acts. 

Familiar, and that hurts me for you. It's one thing to eventually find acceptance within yourself that's who she is, a whole other for her to assume/demand that she can run over any and everyone without any responsibility for her actions, no repercussions, no apology. It does seem like an angry response to anyone who hasn't lived it - and that's the thing, you've lived it all these years. It's a resignation and admission that you can't keep doing what you've been doing. The pretending and brave front only get us so far while we crumble inside.

Whatever you decide about counseling, please don't share that with her or anyone who might tell her. That's your personal private business and she's shown she can't be trusted with it. Do what you need for yourself, to bring peace and joy to your life. If that means removing the poisons, so be it.

[Hilltop]

Leonor so funny you use the words 'you may find that you are best able to stay in a place of love towards your mom from a distance, but instead of aching over the distance, to find relief there'.

Because I offered counselling I felt the need to unoffer it. I sent a short email to my mother and outlined calmly that she 100% has the right to be silent, not respond and not open up etc however its also ok for me to choose to not be around that behaviour. I did explain the behaviour as I see it but didnt offer any examples, just one sentence as to seeing a pattern of behaviour which has been ongoing. So I said counselling would probably not be helpful and to respect my wish for space.  I said I loved them but it was my decision that rather than continuing to bring up these issues it was kinder to love them from afar as we are probably not going to agree.

It has been a lifetime of her saying/doing whatever and to her its up to me to manage my feelings around that.  We are stuck in a stalemate where she says why cant you move on and I say why cant you just not say it. 

I have bumbled around trying to find ways to manage the hurt and the relationship but I see it quite clearly now.  She is essentially saying, take it or leave it. Whether she can see it doesn't matter, in the past I have given clear examples and spoken up, yet there has not been a change. 24 hours ago I gave two clear examples of insults and nothing in return from her. So yes I have decided to love from afar and heal on my own.

The email was calm, no blame and open.  Not written to fix or heal anything but for closure for me. I am glad I sent it. I agree I need the space to heal, in a place where there is no possibility of more hurt from her. It is simply a circle going around and around and its at the point now where bringing it up with her is not helpful. If I cannot just blow off the comments then I need to do something else than pleading for it to stop.

So now onto healing. I think at distance it will be peaceful and not the emotional hurricane it often feels like. At least you all understand and the advice and support you all offer has been so valuable. Thank you.

[Hilltop]

Another thought. I understand the offer of counselling and the email are great to use in a smear campaign.  However that has already been done in the past, my mental health used as a smear already. No point wondering or assuming.

There are no relationships left in the family to be concerned about anyway. They are in tatters.  Through gossip, smears, interference the relationships have eroded.  Just as she eroded the relationship between my father and aunt.

In seeing this NC feels like a safe option.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hilltop,

After I went NC, my PDm also once said she was willing to go to therapy. I laughed aloud when I read that. Then I blocked the emails.

NC was / is the portal to deeper healing for me. I don't regret creating the space for healing that was created by the NC. 

Trees

[Call Me Cordelia]

I've heard through flying monkeys that my uBPDMIL has gone to multiple therapists over "all I put her through." 

[moglow]

Not that you don't already know but -
A text saying they're [supposedly] "Willing to go to counseling if you think it would help" is not at all the same as "We cant go on like this and I don't think we can do it alone. I'd like to go to counseling together." or alternately "*I* can't go on like this and have already started counseling. Would you be willing to have some sessions together?" Maybe even "I think counseling is a great idea - please let me know when they can see us." That's up there with the blanket fauxpologies that are just a bunch of words and change nothing.

And on the subject of apologies - Say she did throw out an apology," then what? In her mind she's done what you asked. All should be well. The nuances of what actually constitutes apologies seem to escape a whole lot of people - there needs to be remorse and recognition of what one is apologizing for, at least an offer of reparations, consistent demonstration of changed behavior going forward. Mine once "apologized" in a fit of anger/spite [as in "It HAPPENED. So WHAT?! I APOLOGIZE already, can't you leave the past in the past???"] then threw it right back in my face, "I already APOLOGIZED! what more do you WANT?" Well, you just did exactly what you'd supposedly apologized for, so it kinda cancelled all that out, doncha think?? No, she did not. That apology was all for one and one for all forever and ever amen, apparently.

I guess the way I see it is we're all in a big learning curve here. Some of us are navigating that curve and others are perfectly happy to drive off in the same ditch over and over, because it's what they know.

[Hilltop]

Moglow you are absolutely right, an apology would be great but isn't actual change what's really wanted and that needs a big effort from both of us. I'm so sorry you went through that type of apology, well non apology and you are right what's the point of getting the apology but the behaviour stays the same. 

I did type out an update on my NC thread. As the dust is settling, I am seeing how circular it is. How never ending it is. As you say driving into the ditch over and over again. There isn't any more anger just resignation. A stepping back from that circle into my own space.  Just more clarity on the whole picture rather than being focused into one moment of hurt.

Thanks Trees and call Me Cordelia. Yep the NC can give me a breather for deeper healing.  Just space to breathe, I do feel like I can now breathe.  There is just this feeling of relief I don't have to deal with that any more, that I only have to deal with my own healing and that doesn't leave me feeling exhausted but simply calm.

I'm sure other emotions may surface but I am just so glad for the space.

[InvisibleDaughter]

Counseling only works for ppl who want to change. You brought up the idea of counseling because you want change. If she wanted change she would have brought it up.

Focus on your own happiness. Seek help for yourself. I'm learning to mourn the relationship I wish I had, it's empowering when you realize you've done nothing wrong.

Sending a (((hug)))