EnSis Reaches Out

[gcj07a]

Hi all--

I have been NC with uBPm for almost four years. And it has been FANTASTIC! I am continually working on myself and dealing with my C-PTSD and am excited about the journey. Shortly after I went NC, my F filed for divorce (this was not coordinated, but it was very welcome). I have a really good relationship with F. For most of my life, F enabled uBPm. Once M moved out, he and I had several heart-to-hearts and have done a lot of work. He has apologized for not being there to protect me from M and has sought to make amends. He is on his own journey of healing. He has also been my biggest champion as I continue on my healing journey.

My sister, however, took a different approach. She utterly condemned me and F for abandoning M. M eventually bought a house in Sis's neighborhood (I wish them much joy together!  ). Anyhow, after multiple years of on-again, off-again chats with me, Sis finally decided about 14 months ago that I was too toxic for her and her family and basically went no contact with me. This made me quite sad. Apart from this whole kerfluffle with M, I really like her. And I like my kids to be able to spend time with their cousins.

Well, today, out of the blue, she texted me to ask if we could talk. According to my F (who she is still cordial with b/c she wants her kids to know their grandpa), she has told him that she has grown sick of dealing with M and had the epiphany that M has systematically taken over all of Sis's attention. Again, this is secondhand, but apparently Sis told M that Sis is not responsible for the fact that M's relationship with me and F fell apart. F says he thinks Sis (who previously dismissed my account of the emotional and physical abuse I suffered at the hands of M) genuinely wants to hear why I went NC. However, what Sis doesn't know is that my M also sexually abused me.

Anyhow, I am torn about what to do. I love my sister and her kids and want them in my life and I want to be in their's. But I also don't trust her after some of the nasty things she has told me and the way she has dismissed me when jumping to M's defense. She has never reached out before to ask to actually talk (it has always been her acting as a proxy for M to heap more abuse on me--usually in the form of texts so she can show them to M to prove her loyalty (I suspect)). This feels different to me, but I don't know.

What do y'all think?

[notrightinthehead]

That's a hard one. How strong and happy within yourself do you feel? Do you want to talk to her? What are you willing to tolerate from her and where is your line? Will you be strong enough to terminate the talk if it becomes abusive or hurtful to you?
Can you find out beforehand what she wants to talk about?

Only you can decide if it is safe for you to proceed with caution.

Personally I have mostly chosen to be open to such outstretched hands, and I have been disappointed too. Let us know what you decide and how it works out.

[Leonor]

Hi gjc,

Well, this sounds very indirect and triangulating and dramatic and invasive to me.

If your sister is genuinely interested in a relationship with you, a) she would contact you, directly, personally and privately; b) she would express genuine interest in rebuilding a relationship with you outside of the rest of the family, adult to adult, woman to woman; and c) she would respect your boundaries around your decisions to engage or not with the other members of your family. And if your father were truly healing, he would tell this to her and hang up instead of calling and throwing it up all over you.

The tangled vines of enmeshment are knotted and tough. They grow silently in our subconscious. It is hard to see when we are caught up in their tendrils.

It's wonderful that you are growing up and out of them in your healing, but I would suggest very gently that you establish some strong boundaries around your relationship with your father. You two are not peers, and you are not on the same journey. It is inappropriate for him to discuss his marriage or divorce with you; it is inappropriate for him to discuss his healing with you; and it is inappropriate for him to discuss his wife or your sister with you. He can listen, he can apologize, he can encourage, but for him to share is completely out of bounds. Your parents are still playing a divide and conquer game, and you and your sister are caught up in their drama.

As an enabling personality, he is going to want to merge and ally himself with someone in the absence of his wife, and, as a motherless daughter, you will naturally yearn to have a relationship with a parent. That is painful, and very sad.

"Dad, I love you, but that is something to talk about with your therapist. Dad, I'm glad you've called, but I'm not going to talk about Mom with you. Dad, I appreciate your interest, but I won't discuss Sister with you. Dad, I appreciate your concern, but that is my private life."

Keep convos with Dad to day to day stuff. Weather. Lunch. Movies. Sports. Common interests. Build a relationship with this man today, on and about today.

[Srcyu]

The fact they she was able to text you shows that you did leave the door ajar and now she is knocking on it.
You've already told her why you went no contact so her wanting to ask you again about that is a bit of a red flag. Always, always remember that any communication from you could be seen/heard of by your M.

Based on my own experience, sisters can turn on the friendly behaviour whenever it suits them and is not an indicator of genuine trustworthiness. My adult children were approached by my sibling behind my back simply because M wanted to see them. Access to your children could be part of what's happening just now.

So, she's knocking on the door of communication between you. You've known her a long time. That background information is probably more accurate than what could lie ahead.

[moglow]

For me, it depends on what she wants to talk about. You want to work on *our* relationship, get the kids together and enjoy them, cool. We could do that. You want to talk about mom and her stuff, pick me for information to feed back to her? No thanks. 

You don't have to explain your reasons for nc to anyone. It's your decision and no one else played a part in it but you and mom. You don't need an intermediary to try and sort things. If sis has issues with mom, same - that's between them and there it should stay.

[gcj07a]

Thanks everyone!

I texted her back to ask what she wanted to talk about. She replied that she wanted to know exactly why I went NC with Mom because if she doesn't have that info she can't be in the same room with me. She then said if I can't give her that info she will pursue a relationship with my wife and kids without me. So, um, NO. Nope nope nope nope. Not happening. I don't trust her at all and see this as a fishing expedition to feed info back to M with the typical ultimatum. I have been clear for the last four years that I would not be discussing my relationship with M with her--it is none of her business. I also think my F is a bit clouded by a desire to see his kids reconcile. I get that from his perspective, but he spent a long time enabling M by pressuring the rest of us to reconcile with her and it seems old habits are hard to break.

[treesgrowslowly]

Lots of great advice here already.

If it were me, I would NOT disclose ANY info to Sis until farther down the road - months or years from now, you can see if Sis is serious about pulling away from her enmeshed relationship with her mother or not.

My guess is that something precipitated her contacting you. And given what you know about her and M, they probably had some drama, and your sister thought about running to you. Which she did.

Sis has A LOT of work to do on herself, and that work takes time. There are no shortcuts. She needs at least 6 months or more, to sort out what she wants to do with her being enmeshed with her mother. She has a lot to learn about FOG.

There is no quick way to a trusting relationship with anyone, including our siblings.

You want to avoid a situation where you rush to get close with her, she waits a few months, runs back to her mother, and re-bonds to her mother and gets back into that enabled relationship again. As Leonor mentioned triangulation. You are at high risk for triangulation drama. That is going to be a triangulation mess you don't want to deal with. You can protect yourself from that by going very slowly with what you share with her.

In my experience, healing requires a lot of distance from drama. Yes we can love our siblings but we have to love our healing work more than that especially as we learn to manage our C PTSD.

Few of us have siblings who are truly mature enough to honor the healing work we are engaged with after creating distance. You created distance 4 years ago and as you said, it led to fantastic emotions. Sis has to do her own work.

Trees

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi again,

Oops, I posted while you were posting the update. And as you say, it was a fishing expedition all along. Ugh. Unacceptable. She is not entitled to any of that info - ever. and if she were to be included in your circle of 'safe people' to disclose to, it would be years from now.

It is 100% NONE of her business why you went NC. For her to say she "can't be in the same room with you unless you tell her". That's FOG. She wants you to feel anxious, obligated and guilty. No thank you! At least she was very clear about her expectation and what she thinks you're obligated to do.

I'm sorry this is not what you wanted to hear. But at least you know where she stands. Sometimes enablers tip their hand so much it. It makes it easy to see how foggy they still are.

I know how hard this is - that fantasy of a healed family system looms over all of us to some degree I think. We all would love it if everyone could get Out of the FOG and get along. Let the kids play together and leave all the trauma bonding in the past. It is a fantasy. Your job is to show your kids what healthy relating looks like. Imagine her treating your kids like this one day. Shudder.

Trees

[moglow]

Wow. So you're not allowed to mind your own very personal business and decide what's best for you and your own family? Noted. That makes me mad for you! So she's going behind your back since you've chosen to not discuss things that are None of. Her. Business. Also no. 

You owe *no one* an explanation. Keep reminding yourself of that. I'm so sorry it's this way with your sibling. 

[gcj07a]

Well, she did say that she could just listen to my explanation without saying anything at all! She wouldn't have to even comment! So, so generous! What a sweet invitation back into the dysfunction party!

[moglow]

... OR she can just learn to live without it. Not her circus, not her monkeys . 🙈🙉🙊

[Cat of the Canals]

She replied that she wanted to know exactly why I went NC with Mom because if she doesn't have that info she can't be in the same room with me. She then said if I can't give her that info she will pursue a relationship with my wife and kids without me.

Yikes!!!! And here I was, all ready to give her the benefit of the doubt (hi, my name is Cat, and I'm a recovering people pleaser) before I read this little zinger of an update. Good gravy, the entitlement!

And it's interesting that she only "needs" the truth now that she's having her own issues with your mother. It makes me wonder if what she's really after is "ammo." Something nasty to throw in your mother's face the next time they have a disagreement.

Whatever her motives, hard pass!

[Hilltop]

That's really disappointing for you gcj07a. It sounds like it was the right move to question her about what she wanted to talk about. Your reasons are your own, you don't owe anyone else an explanation unless you want to give one.  I also think it's interesting she says she can sit there and listen without saying anything, hmmm, sounds very much like a fishing expedition for information.

At the end of the day if she doesn't have that info and she can't be in the same room as you well that's her choice isn't it. It also sounds like if your father is use to being the enabler he is now doing that between you and your sister.  It may be easier not to talk to him about her.  He may be getting sucked in to old habits which are hard for him to break.

It sounds to me that your sister is sick of dealing with your mother and wants the roles to go back to what they were, when it was easier on her.

This part was interesting "Again, this is secondhand, but apparently Sis told M that Sis is not responsible for the fact that M's relationship with me and F fell apart". So your sister is trying to prove she is not responsible and now she suddenly wants to listen to you list off reasons you are no contact.  Hmmm and then is she going to go back to prove she is not responsible by listing all the things you said and do a smear campaign. Perhaps.

It is disappointing but it's good you see the red flags in her text.  This just seems like drama being stirred up so the drama is around you and not her.

[gcj07a]

Today she texted me to let me know that her goal is to be able to be cordial enough for our families to see each other once or twice a year. Apparently to be cordial enough for that, she MUST KNOW why I went NC. Obviously that is nonsense. Or, if she really literally cannot be around me without that knowledge, then she isn't someone I want to be around anyway.

Actually, she is in possession of the email I sent my M 4 years ago explaining why I was going NC (my M copied her on her reply to me after receiving the email) and she has a shorter email I sent to her and my brother explaining in brief why I was going NC. Since then, more has come to light to confirm my choice, but all she needs to know is included in those initial emails. I think I will text her back to remind her of those and to let her know I said all I plan to say about it 4 years ago.

[Hilltop]

That sounds really off and a lot of work for someone who has already told you they only want to see you once or twice a year.

It's up to you with how you respond, you need to be comfortable with how you leave things with her, do you need to remind her of the previous email.  She got it, she knows.  Could you leave it with you said all you needed to say 4 years ago and the discussion on it is now closed for you.  Whatever she wants to make of that is up to her.  I would also add that if that means she can't have a relationship with you then that is her choice and you will respect that decision. This lets her know you are not feeling responsibility for her decisions.  Of course if you want to go NC then no point in putting the part in about having a relationship with you.

Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be a genuine attempt at a relationship from her and that I imagine would be disappointing.

[Leonor]

Hi gjc,

First, I'd like to support you in maintaining your boundaries and privacy around your experiences with your predatory mother. It is just so violating to insist that a survivor explain, defend, or detail her experience to anybody! And that level of rudeness and disrespect on the part of your sister sets off my spidey senses: Mom clearly has no boundaries, and gets supply by violating yours ... I don't know for sure, of course, but I'd bet dime for dollar that Sister is carrying water for Mom. Either Mom gets supply by reliving the details of your experience, or Mom gets to defend, point by point, her behavior towards you, and she and sister enmesh even further over your victimization. And as long as your father is participating in these conversations with sister about mom, my dear, he is part of the problem. Physically and legally he may be separated, but he is very much all up in everyone else's business, too.

Seriously, enough with these people! They are too messed up to understand basic dignity and respect. No matter what you say or don't, they're going to twist it: "She won't even tell me what's wroooong," or "She's got these false memorieeees," or "She's even manipulating dear old daaaaad." Ugh. What €#@ ever.

As a fellow survivor of maternal sexual abuse, I just want to say that I 100% hear and support you, that you deserve to be treated with kindness and respect, that your experiences are true and real and valid, and no one - No. One. - has the right to ask, let alone insist, that you say anything about your trauma and healing. And if you do share with someone, that someone should treat your sharing as an honor and a privilege, and express their gratitude, and reassure you that your privacy is sacred, and defend your privacy tooth and nail to everyone else, including their other children.

A "family" in which the adults are sexually abusing their children is too toxic and enmeshed to disentangle itself. If you can, I would gently encourage you to find a good, kind, dedicated trauma therapist who can help you heal those old injuries and embrace yourself as the unique, precious, worthy soul you are.

[gcj07a]

Thanks everyone.

I still haven't decided what to do. I talked it over with my T yesterday (she is a very experienced trauma T and is fantastic) and her approach was very much to help me focus on my needs and to reject any responsibility anyone else puts on me. If I do decide to disclose, it has to be for my sake and not for my sis or anyone else. So, I have been going over the pros and cons in my mind:

Here are the cons:

-Increased emotional distress

-Potential for the flying monkeys once word gets out

Here are the pros:

-Relief that everything is in the open with FOO--I feel a strong urge to force FOO to confront the monstrosity of our childhood. By not sharing with Sis I feel like I am complicit in the cover-up and I am the one who has to be the pariah. I feel like I am currently in a position of strength for the first time in years. I've even mulled over potential criminal charges. 

-Possible reconciliation with Sister (for all of the problems I've had with her recently, she was a good friend before the blow up; she also has advanced education in family studies and has adopted five kids out of the foster care system, kids that were taken from their parents because of abuse/neglect. She is working on becoming a CPS caseworker. I don't know, but I think she might uniquely be able to understand if I actually shared, but I might also be having some false hope).

Other relevant data:

Sis and M live a solid five hour drive away from me on the other side of the State. They also do not have my current address, so I think the danger of drop-ins to be minimal. Currently M is blocked on any form of communication. Sis can still reach my number, but she is easily blocked if necessary.


RE: My F. He means well. And he is a survivor of severe emotional abuse from her as well. But I do think I need firmer boundaries with him.

[gcj07a]

Well, I went ahead and texted her something very general about me experiencing sexual abuse by my M when I was a kid. She replied that, basically, she doesn't wish false accusations on anyone and so she won't be able to be around me or my kids so I don't falsely accuse her!

Why didn't I listen to you people?!?!?! 

Oh well, at least all has been made super clear.

[moglow]

Sooooo ... Your experience -that she pushed for and insisted upon as a condition of contact with them- is different from hers and that automatically makes it a false accusation? And now she/they can't be around you? Right. Mkay. 

Lord have mercy. Not what I wanted for you but damn. She took quite a stretch to get there.

Consider not responding to any follow-up questions or messages. I fail to she her point. 

[gcj07a]

Thanks Moglow! I sent my last reply saying that I will not be replying further. She has since sent me a demand for proof and a demand to know why I haven't pressed criminal charges if the assaults actually happened. Anyway, I am ignoring her messages. Will block her if needed.

Edit: Well, she officially moved the goal posts from "you need to give me your reasons for NC or we can't have a relationship" to "you need to submit proof of your claims of sexual abuse or we can't have a relationship." I think I learned my lesson.