I don't know how to handle this - advice welcome

[wisingup]

So ubpdm and have been as vlc as I can manage for the past 8 years.  I had to interact with her quite frequently for the last 2 years when she was living "independently" but in truth needed almost weekly assistance with basic life tasks.  She's now is assisted living & I am much less involved, but I still manage her money so we need to speak about that every few weeks.

I have told her verbally and in writing many times why I don't want to spend time with her.  Of course, it doesn't sink in and she will always say she has no idea what the problem is.  When I need to interact with her I try to stay grey rock and all business.

She just called with a money question, which is fine, but then pivoted to trying to be nice.  She asked about me and my kids, & when I gave her the "everything's fine" response she pivoted again to needling me about how I don't want to talk to her and I obviously want to get off the phone.  Which is of course true.  I felt like my choice was to continue to grey rock and mocked and get guilt-tripped, or remind her why our relationship is the way it is which would lead to her getting upset and arguing/crying. 

I think I'm just venting here, and working this through for myself.  Those are indeed my two choices as long as I am in this relationship.  I think in the future I'll be more direct at getting myself off the phone rather than wait for her to stop flinging questions at me.  She got me to agree to come meet her for lunch sometime, which now that I'm off the phone, I understand that I have no intention of actually doing.

I feel that there is no middle ground.  Whenever we speak, she will throw everything at me to somehow get the relationship back to what she considers "normal" while I have to grit my teeth and repel every effort and put up with the guilt-tripping.  I guess I'm hoping for a magic phrase that will get her to understand that this is it - this is the extent of our relationship - and she can't fix things just by trying to act nice.  I feel like I can't tolerate this for the next 10 years or however long she will live - I feel like a crap human being everytime I have to be cold to this elderly lonely confused woman.  How can I come to a place of acceptance, and deal with her manipulations without feeling so crappy afterwards?

[wisingup]

I'm back after a night of thinking.  I realize that I come running here for support after just about every interaction with her - thank you all for being here!

I give her too much power.  I need to take it back.  She's an old lady living in assisted living - she cannot hurt me in any real way.  Yes she pushes my buttons every time we talk, so it's on me to keep those buttons out of her reach.  As soon as she starts in on the questions and guilt-tripping, the call needs to end.  Boom - over and out.

[moglow]

Just now reading this but YES

She's an old lady living in assisted living - she cannot hurt me in any real way.  Yes she pushes my buttons every time we talk, so it's on me to keep those buttons out of her reach.  As soon as she starts in on the questions and guilt-tripping, the call needs to end.  Boom - over and out.

Not to denigrate her in any way but exactly that. She only has the power we give her. All the threats, tantrums, complaints, etc only get as far as we take them.

My brother has been spending an inordinate amount of time with mommie dearest, taking her to dr appts and running errands for her (he lives close by). She does all the same - countless demands for this or that, but when she gets comfortable will launch into being downright nasty (as she has been to everyone else).

He'll call her on it and leave/end the call, and within a very short time she'll reach out asking him to come have lunch with her. NO! You're not good company and I've had enough for one day.

She did it with me for years, would be oozy nice until she got what she wanted then turn on me. Then she'd calm down and try to play nice, asking what we can do about our relationship. We don't HAVE one! She's been a batterer my whole life, this is not new! She just doesn't understand that she burned that bridge a long time ago, that a few shots of nice doesn't change anything. It just feels creepy.

But you? Have a GREAT day! :Hug:

[wisingup]

Thank you Moglow!  A big hug back to you 

[wisingup]

She did it with me for years, would be oozy nice until she got what she wanted then turn on me. Then she'd calm down and try to play nice, asking what we can do about our relationship. We don't HAVE one! She's been a batterer my whole life, this is not new! She just doesn't understand that she burned that bridge a long time ago, that a few shots of nice doesn't change anything. It just feels creepy

Yes, this is the exact dynamic.  It puts me in a constantly defensive position & forces me to be "mean" to someone who appears to be trying to do better.  But I know what will happen if I yield even a little - I will be eaten alive.

[Cat of the Canals]

Write yourself a script. When mom starts up with the guilt trip, out comes the script. I figure you can go two ways with it:

1. Lean into the "It's obvious you want to get off the phone." Why deny it? It's perfectly fine to want to do something else. It's perfectly fine to [always] be too busy to chat. So you say, "Well, I actually am pretty busy, so if that was all you needed, I really do need to go."

2. Become a broken record. "We've had this conversation before, and I'm really not interested in discussing it again. Is there anything else?" She'll probably go full guilt trip, so this is your cue to hang up after a polite farewell. "OK, we'll talk some other time. Goodbye."

And don't forget that she's using the rules of "politeness" against you without ever abiding by them herself. It's rude to push you to discuss things you don't want to talk about. It's not rude or cold to remove yourself from that situation. It's healthy and brave.

[wisingup]

Thank you Cat - this is good advice.  I will work out a few phrases while I feel safe & calm, & keep them in my desk drawer.

[nanotech]

Her telling you that about it being ' obvious' you want to get off the phone is an attempt to shame.  She's trying to get you to feel some, and then JADE. ( see toolbox of What Not To Do.).
She's trying to shame you for your change in behaviour with her. She's trying to point out that she's recognised the change and she hates it, and that you need to stop it.
Good, you're having an impact. It's working. She's just upping her game to try to counter it.

I went through this with my dad. I suddenly stopped over explaining and I stopped information sharing with him. He disliked it and got grumpy, abrupt, mocking and, quite frankly, rude.
I can't remember how long it was, but eventually he realised that the change in my responses to him was going to be permanent!  Then I began to receive a grudging acceptance from him, which later became a resigned approach.

It's just a matter of time and staying with it. Though it's really hard! But all of a sudden,it's easy and you've cracked it!


When I started this, here were the things I tried to remind myself to say and do.

I had them written down in front of me!


I am a grown up. 
I deserve respect.
I am not obliged to drop everything for certain people.
I am not obliged to'fix'other people.
I am in charge of my own time.
I have a life.


'No' is a full sentence. 'I don't know' is a full sentence. Even when these two answers are met with stunned silence, hold your nerve and count! Eventually the conversation resumes! If they push it, repeat the simple response you gave earlier.
'I have other plans' is enough information.
'That won't work for me' is enough explanation.
And keep repeating the same sentence if pressed. This is the ' broken record' technique. 

'Let me get back to you on that' is another good one. It's a great window for getting off the phone too, because they think they will be getting an answer. Then either don't get back to them or get back at a much later date with a grey rock answer, then, whoops you need to get off the phone, nice talking, byeeeeeee!

In answer to a  direct criticism of our behaviour/ actions.

' I can see why you might feel like that, but that's my decision.'
'I understand why you  might want me to go, but my decision is not to.

Don't get into why and wherefores. Remember not to JADE.

And also, get off the phone! And be blatant about it! Never ever apologise!
You can even begin calls by letting her/ them know you have to leave in 10mins.
If you get comments like, 'What's so important?' Or 'Why, what are you doing afterwards?' Etc, you can answer but be vague.
' I have something arranged'
'I have plans'
'An appointment in town'
Or simply just ' Things to do'
And if pressed, just repeat the general answer don't explain in any sort of detail.
Or simply,
' Whoops I have to run, nice talking, bye!'
Honestly, when I started this with Ndad I thought he was going to end up ranting and then disowning me. I was prepared to risk that.
Guess what, he didn't.
Now if he asks he how i am and what's happening in my life, and I say
Fine
and Good
he accepts that.

There might often be some tumbleweed moments during our chat( where I'm meant to to fill in lots of details which he can feed on with great gusto) but I just let the silence hang! Old habits die hard for my elderly dad. It makes for a quite stilted convo at times,but I just resist the temptation to jump in and fill that void. ( as I used to) Eventually he speaks again and it continues on the nicely superficial and generalised level that he hates and I love.

The other thing my dad would do, was to make a judgement about something or someone. Because in the past my foggy selfwas always appeasing him. I would often not argue just for ease. Sometimes, to gain approval, I would agree with him here and there to make him feel  good. ( wasn't my job ever )
Then later, I would find out I'd upset someone!  He would have told people that it was me who had brought that person up, and made that critical judgement!

I've learned now to keep neutral on sticky topics like that.
 Sometimes I'd be their flying monkey as well. Sigh.

In these ways, personality disordered people  get their views out there, said and heard, but without taking any responsibility for them. The blame is dumped upon us.
                      Both my parents would do this at times. It took me along time to recognise this. It was part of the scapegoat role I played in the family. I'd go along with them to get along, Through me, they'd get something said and sometimes something done within the family, and I'd be the one who had 'offended' some family member ( one of the other two narcissistic siblings or my narc niece), not them. I'd end up having to absorb the shame,  so that they didn't have to.

When I was in the fog, I did used to think
' Mum got what she wanted and yet I'm the one being shunned!'

I knew something wasn't right, but I didn't know what it was  until I read the book, ' Toxic Parents' about 12 years ago now.

A lot of it is about shame. In PD disordered families there's often one member of the family who is allocated to carry the emotion for the others and absorb all the shame. It leaves the others free to run riot then dump all the shame on one person, who they then point the finger at.

This is why they struggle so much when we choose to move away from that scapegoat role. They may criticise us from afar, but once unfed by dysfunctional communications,the vitriol has to plateau. Once we  begin to unegage, to neatly sidestep any future  manipulations/drama/ criticisms/ lovebombing from them, and we stop giving them a window into our lives and opinions, they have nothing to 'work with' and have to look at and deal with their own behaviour.
Usually they can't, so they look for another scapegoat.
When I started this disengaging from the family ( dysfunctional) system,  I've actually had one PD family member call me ' crazy' to my own kids. They will do anything! Luckily I didn't rise to that, neither did my daughter.

 
I'm probably quite boring for them these days on the phone or on text. 🤣

I totally grey rock. I just don't have an opinion. Tend to just say,


' right'
Or
'okay'

Shame is a big weapon for them and they love to use it, whether directly or indirectly. I've learned to laugh to myself when I see an attempt aproaching. They still try! When it occurs now it just reminds me why I have these boundaries.  Some of their efforts to still try to shame,  are sooooo funny as well! . Don't BE ashamed when they require it! Never again!

They usually try a bit of lovebombing too.  Watch out for this. With my dad it's usually at the expense of other people. As in
' You're the top of my list to call!'
' I'm using YOUR birthday present this week!'
' You're very important! '
' You're very very special!'
I usually say,ok or some such. Keep on with the grey rocking even when they are nice.
I don't allow this false flattery to get round me.
Hoping this helps!

[InvisibleDaughter]

Is there anyone else who could be in charge of her money?

[NotCryingGlitter]

I just got an idea about the phone calls from reading these posts. I couldn't do it everytime, or it would give it away, but...mute the phone, open the door, unmute (and maybe quickly put it on speaker, to make sure it's heard), ring the doorbell, mute, shut the door, and unmute. "Someone just rang my doorbell; I gotta go."

I really like the idea from above about answering the phone with something along the lines of "I can't talk long; I have to leave/go in 5 minutes." Leaving could even be leaving the call.

[NotCryingGlitter]

Ooh another idea. When the phone rings, set the dryer real quick to go off in a few minutes, then when it buzzes..."dryer buzzed; gotta go." Or do it with the oven timer.

[Pinkos]

I've been struggling with this as well as I've recently, tentatively, resumed contact after years of NC. These shaming and phony dynamics are hard to take. It's hard to stay in the pocket and stick to a script! Everyone's comments have been great and I don't have much to add other than to highlight Nanotech's observation:

The other thing my dad would do, was to make a judgement about something or someone. Because in the past my foggy selfwas always appeasing him. I would often not argue just for ease. Sometimes, to gain approval, I would agree with him here and there to make him feel  good. ( wasn't my job ever )
Then later, I would find out I'd upset someone!  He would have told people that it was me who had brought that person up, and made that critical judgement!

I had cousins who moved to my area a few years ago before I went NC. They were eager to reconnect with me and I visited them. They have certain habits that annoy me but I was grateful for their interest. Of course my mother brought up these annoying habits of theirs and I agreed and gossiped about it. Not to excuse myself but I had picked up a lot of bad habits re gossiping and being judgmental about relatives etc from my parents. That's all they ever did. And that was the only way to connect with them.

Well the next time I saw these cousins they were quite withdrawn and even somewhat hostile. It took me a long while to figure out why. I have no proof other than my mother gleefully asking me about them every time we spoke.

It's very hard to forgive them when they do stuff like this. I appreciate all the suggestions to minimize their bs and keep them at arm's length. There's also a bigger part of me that asks: what's the point? Why even make the effort? I go back and forth.

[wisingup]

Not to excuse myself but I had picked up a lot of bad habits re gossiping and being judgmental about relatives etc from my parents. That's all they ever did. And that was the only way to connect with them

I'm sorry Pinkos.  I can relate to this.  My mom's main topic of conversation is gossip, usually about family.  I am ashamed that I often participated as a kid & young adult.  I can't count the number of family relationships this has cost me.  I would act coldly and withdraw from family because of things my mom told me about them (probably exaggerated and skewed).  I have a cousin who behaves the same way - whom I idolized as a child - and this contributed as well to this dynamic.  This cousin and my mom get along famously, not surprisingly.

I have learned late in life to give the benefit of the doubt to people. Some of the quirkiest people (the ones my mom would have made fun of) are the best people.  It's too late for me to re-build those family relationships, but I can enjoy making new friends with a more open heart, and of course a better radar for the dysfunctional.

[moglow]

What I finally took from my mother's judgmental rants about others was the simple fact that she's saying the same behind my back. Probably to those very people she just disparaged and ridiculed to me. I heard it too many times, the gleeful spiteful tone while telling someone's personal business, then within days they're her bestest buddy again. In all honesty, I set her up once - told her something and insisted she keep it between us. You guessed it, not long after it came back to me through expected channels, embellished of course.

I feel that there is no middle ground.  Whenever we speak, she will throw everything at me to somehow get the relationship back to what she considers "normal" while I have to grit my teeth and repel every effort and put up with the guilt-tripping.  I guess I'm hoping for a magic phrase that will get her to understand that this is it - this is the extent of our relationship - and she can't fix things just by trying to act nice. 

I think it really does all come back to this - the PDs we speak of don't appear to possess or even recognize any middle ground. It's absolutes, all or nothing, black or white, no sometimes and no gray. The concept of change is foreign, even the most basic that little children grow into adults. There's no recognition even that abusing/misusing little children creates distant distrusting adults. Ours have nailed down who we are [based on those needy little children] and there's no deviation from that. Flip side of that is, I have no idea who md is, as a person either. I don't have much clue of her most basic likes and dislikes - and I'm not sure she knows either. She's always been very changeable based on whoever and whatever is happening at particular moments in time.

I had to adapt to what's best for me, brush off those leading questions of "why" and "what happened between us" and "but why can't we ..." because we've beat those horses to death too long already and never did gain any benefit from them.

[wisingup]

Is there anyone else who could be in charge of her money?

Invisible Daughter - no, I think I've come to accept that this has to be me.  My brother handles all of her medical appointments & visits her weekly.  If I don't do this, it will land on his plate & I can't do that to him.  The other option would be to pay for someone to do it, but that person would need to be monitored & honestly, that's almost as much work.  It also would use up more of her money which she is already in danger of outliving.

It's OK - I fought this responsibility for a while, but I think I can handle it as long as I think of it as being part of a team with my brother.

[Pinkos]

Wow @moglow. Your comment hits so many nails. You're absolutely right, they gossip about us to the same people they gossip about to us. Those cousins I mentioned? One of them told me that my mother talks about me like a dog with their mother. It's a never ending cycle. And it's what keeps family members and relatives disconnected. These particular cousins' mother does the same thing to them with my mother. My mother also gossips about this woman. And on an on it goes. Even when people understand these are exaggerations and they try to give you the benefit of the doubt, if there's no foundation of trust it's very hard to build a genuine relationship. These cousins and my siblings have been hearing character assassination about me ever since I was 12 or so. How do you change their perception of you? It's nearly impossible! And they're not dumb, the character assassination is mixed in with the truth. Everyone has good and not so good sides to them. It's hard to undo persistent gossip over years 

That's why it's hard to find anything worth fighting for when it comes to relatives and other family members. There's nothing there. I don't really know them just like I don't really know my FOO. And the black and white thinking and flying monkey roles don't allow a comfortably distant type of relationship either. They push so hard to suck you back into the vortex. We either have to be enmeshed or cut off/NC. They have to be victim and I, persecutor. They can't handle anything else.

[moglow]

@Pinkos actually one of my brothers originally brought that to mind, talking about dating: If they'll say it TO you about the last one, they'll say it ABOUT you to the next one. And he's right. All those men/women whose every ex is psycho and they go on and on about them way too often, giving you all kind of personal information you never needed? I'll take common denominator for $1000 Alex! When I finally sat back and listened to the vile poison mother was constantly spewing about this or that person, the sheer glee in her voice while she did it? It was slow but it dawned she'd been saying those very things about me to all and sundry. I was just a blip on her spin cycle of abuse really. It also helped me separate myself from it and not take it personally - it wasn't because she had no clue who I am.

[SafireJem]

Big virtual hugs to you. The whirlwind of emotions you are feeling is so hard to cope with. I admire you for holding your boundaries and being GR and business-like in such a difficult, trying situation, where it would be so easy to get sucked back into the drama and stress.

I know exactly what you mean about feeling like a crap human, having to take this approach with an elderly person. You clearly have a lot of empathy - you can see that despite your mum's destructive impact on your life, she is a vulnerable (to an extent – she is still wielding power, however) person due to her age and frailty, and the empathetic, humane side of your nature reacts to that. That speaks volumes about your compassion. You have empathy, she has an empathy deficit, so while you care about your impact on her, she has no regard for her impact on you.

With my armchair psychologist hat on... as kids we want to please our parents and we blame ourselves for anything wrong in the family dynamic. It sounds like you are feeling very guilty (and other emotions) for the problems SHE caused in your life and in the relationship between the two of you. This is making you feel like a crap human – she's pushing all the fear, obligation, and guilt buttons, right?

Have you considered that you can hold empathy and space for your mum while still holding your very firm boundaries and protecting yourself? Have you thought about how despite her negative impact on your life, you are still supporting her, in terms of her money management? That you are still willing to do this shows that you are absolutely not a crap human (I acknowledge you feel that way).

However, maybe it is time for you to find someone else to do her money management, as she is using that point of contact to manipulate you.

Take good care.

[InvisibleDaughter]

My NPD Mom is almost 70. She's going through a divorce and now wants me to be a big part of her life, after not doing much the past 5 years.

It's so sad when they get old and needy and still don't realize that they are the problem.

Sending you a ((hug))

[NotCryingGlitter]

There's also a bigger part of me that asks: what's the point? Why even make the effort? I go back and forth.

Because you deserve to be treated right and have an opportunity to enjoy life, even though it feels like that is hopeless, and although it has affected so many years, you can't let it ruin the entire rest of your life. It's been made clear that she won't change, which means the only change will be how you react. You have to protect yourself for your own sanity and self-care, which you deserve to have. She's the insane one, not you.