Telling children about pd

[Truthseeker1]

Trying to move myself and the rest of the heard forward. Not sure what is appropriate. My uNbpdw and I have raised 4 kids, currently ages 21-28. All out of house. I have just recently come to realize my wife has a pd. In our younger years I just believed everything she said. I honestly could not fathom my partner would manipulate to maintain control at all cost. Truth and integrity are top of my list and for some strange reason I believed they were hers as well. I honestly thought I was just so uninsightful that I was constantly missing everything. She seemed to understand what was happening in everyone's relationships and when she explianed, it made sense. She is super high functioning. Has masters in psychology. But her real degree is  Master of gaslighting,controlling, manipulating and love bombing. Graduated summa cum laud with the worlds most powerful Hoover suction ever experienced. In our young parenting years there were always "problems" with the kids. Issues with neighbors, church, and friends were nearly continuous. It was like the world was against us and we had to stick together to overcome it. I did the best I could but believed I was so ignorant in the parenting realm that I let her steer the ship and I was first mate. When the last kid moved out, it soon became clear who really had the biggest problem of all. Kicking myself for not seeing it sooner. Lamenting all the damage I allowed to take place to my kids. Can't go back and change it but we can go forward. So that's what I am trying to do.  I have quit trying to change her. Now I change me. I change my understanding of what I am dealing with and I have a whole new approach to the problems. I don't have to solve them all anymore. Mentally I am in a better place because of my understanding of what I am really dealing with. I want that for my kids as well. But not sure how to go about helping them see it clearly. It is their mom. She does a lot for them. They feel loved by her at times. I don't even really know anymore if it is love or just giving to them to maintain control. So now that I see it, I have a ton of evidence to support my opinions (like that even really matters). I have a good relationship with my kids and we can talk.  She on the other hand is hit or miss with them. Most of the time there is a black sheep and golden child. It seems to rotate between them. They have all had a taste of both. The kids know something is wrong but don't really understand it very well. She is a most proficient love bomber and gift giver. Christmas and birthdays are amazing!!!!  The kids have all loved her and hated her at different times.
My question is, how do I bring the kids into the know of what we are all dealing with. When I first learned about pd, I was so relieved to finally understand. I wanted to share it with them but was not really sure how. As they witnessed events unfold, I would later pull them aside and would explain the diagnosis and how and why she was behaving as she was. I tried to explain she was coping the best she could but that it was not ok for her to treat them like they were being treated. They did not deserve what they were getting and I would try to affirm them. I would share the tools I was using to cope with it myself.  It's really hard because it is their mom and they do love her. They also seem to hate her at the same time.  They are all grown but still somewhat dependent. Three are in post grad and one still at university. Money is power. They have all spent some time as the black sheep and it's not pleasant for them. They know her power and they all fear her. I want to equip them to cope but I am their dad and she is their mom. Two have seen therapist in the past to work on themselves but never with the full knowledge of the situation they are in. They have seen therapist because of stress and depression but have never identified the root of it all. I was surprised they were not more excited to understand. I thought the light bulb would go on like it did for me and they would be hungry for more. They all seem apprehensive to stir up the hornets nest and would rather let it just sit. They are all very busy and I can understand not wanting to risk setting off a chain of events that could quickly get out of hand but I really expected them to show a bit more interest. Currently I am the black sheep and I guess it bothers them to see it but they are also relieved that it is not them. I don't have any experience in this arena, but I'm not really sure how to communicate these things with adult children since I am talking about their mother. Issues do need to be addressed because the cycle continues.
I offered to talk when they want and to read the book stop walking on eggshells. But not sure how to facilitate their understanding without doing damage. Any insight on the matter? 

[bloomie]

Truthseeker1 - I moved your post from The Welcome Mat to this board so that you would have the best chance of others weighing in.

Reading through your post I am wondering if your children have asked for your insights into their mother's behaviors and patterns? If I am understanding you correctly you have offered to talk any time, shared a bit of what you have learned and what works for you and so far, they are not seeking anything further? Also, I am assuming your wife has not had an official diagnosis, but rather you are putting two and two together as to what her harmful behaviors are indicating is going on with her?

There is a huge risk in positioning yourself as the "interpreter" of their mother's issues, patterns, potential disorders imo.

Each of your children have unique relationships with both of you. Each of them have had unique experiences with both of you. Each of your children will have a distinct, unique view of you both and what if how they view each of you is not the same as how you do?

Most people I know, even grown adult people who have seen unjust, immature, hurtful, disordered behaviors in one of their parents are not very comfortable being led by the other parent, into formulating opinions, insights, or tools in complicated relationships like you describe.

My best thoughts.. and these are only my thoughts, so please take what you need and leave the rest, is continue to build loving, honest, respectful relationships with your adult children. Let them see your growth and healing, coping and stability so that, when they are ready, they feel safe to come to you and it doesn't feel like a betrayal of their autonomy and growing awareness.

Keep growing. Keep doing the hard inner work and healing you are called to and stay open and careful in how you approach this.

And keep coming back and let us know how you are doing!

[Poison Ivy]

I agree with Bloomie.

One thing I keep in mind vis-a-vis my children (both of whom are now adults) is that I was not and am not a perfect person or a perfect parent. I can and do try to be a good person, but (1) I'm never going to be perfect, so me "explaining" their father's behavior opens me to the same from him and from my children; and (2) part of being a good person is not criticizing people to whom they're related and with whom I hope they continue to have a relationship.

[Truthseeker1]

Thank you Bloomie for moving the post to the correct location. I am still learning to use the site and I appreciate your direction.  Thank you poison ivy for your comments as well. You both have offered very good insights. I agree that I do need to be very careful when addressing these issues. She is and always will be their one and only mother. I want them to have a relationship with her but I also want to protect them from the harmful effects of her pd. They have all been treated as special at times and have been deeply wounded by her at other times. Understanding the disorder took a huge burden off my back.  Once I understood the disorder  I could see what she was doing and it empowered me to quit taking things at face value and to quit trying to solve each dilemma with standard logic and reason. Understanding her condition actually gave me more compassion for her and more patience. I am now able to better understand her triggers and can actually avoid them or tend to the appropriate issue that is hurting her now and not waste a lot of time trying to address a problem that was never really the actual problem in the first place. I want to give them the tools they need to cope.  For instance, she has issues with rejection and abandonment. So the other day, 4 of us were driving to an event. Three of us were talking about something and getting along very well. We were laughing and really having a good time. She couldn't really relate to the subject matter so she started to aggressively complain about my driving. She also began to make snide remarks about our ridiculous and immature sense of humor. Normally I would have stopped the enjoyable banter with the kids to address her perceived concerns. But... they would have been the wrong concerns I was addressing. The truth is, She felt left out and then threatened that the kids enjoyed their dad. Before understanding nbpd I would have defended my driving and the kids normal sense of humor. We could have fought for the next hour in the car and she would have successfully interrupted our bonding. She would then later go on to buy them each something special to attempt to bind them to herself. Understanding the disorder gives me the option to deal with the real underlying issue and not lead down a dead end trail.  I am not a psychologist and not really qualified to teach them all about the disorder. I am just figuring it out myself. I do want to give them the ability to not take it all personally and to recognize the truth behind the curtain.

[SonofThunder]

Truthseeker1 - I moved your post from The Welcome Mat to this board so that you would have the best chance of others weighing in.

Reading through your post I am wondering if your children have asked for your insights into their mother's behaviors and patterns? If I am understanding you correctly you have offered to talk any time, shared a bit of what you have learned and what works for you and so far, they are not seeking anything further? Also, I am assuming your wife has not had an official diagnosis, but rather you are putting two and two together as to what her harmful behaviors are indicating is going on with her?

There is a huge risk in positioning yourself as the "interpreter" of their mother's issues, patterns, potential disorders imo.

Each of your children have unique relationships with both of you. Each of them have had unique experiences with both of you. Each of your children will have a distinct, unique view of you both and what if how they view each of you is not the same as how you do?

Most people I know, even grown adult people who have seen unjust, immature, hurtful, disordered behaviors in one of their parents are not very comfortable being led by the other parent, into formulating opinions, insights, or tools in complicated relationships like you describe.

My best thoughts.. and these are only my thoughts, so please take what you need and leave the rest, is continue to build loving, honest, respectful relationships with your adult children. Let them see your growth and healing, coping and stability so that, when they are ready, they feel safe to come to you and it doesn't feel like a betrayal of their autonomy and growing awareness.

Keep growing. Keep doing the hard inner work and healing you are called to and stay open and careful in how you approach this.

And keep coming back and let us know how you are doing!

+1

SoT

[Truthseeker1]

I would really like to help the kids read between the lines and see it for what it is. I believe it would take some stress off all parties in the long run and prevent the kids from making the same mistakes I did for so many long years. It would likely help improve their relationship with their mom. I don't want to be the one to explain it all. I tried to give them a brief summary and a few examples they could relate to. They seemed to understand on some level.  I offered them the book stop walking on eggshells but none of them read it. I think they all know something serious is wrong but we all are afraid to confront her , me included. I don't want them to understand so they can confront her. I want them to understand so they can accept her and not take things personal in as far as that is even possible when it is your mother you are dealing with. She is my wife and not my mom. My mom was nothing like her. So I have no experience what it is like dealing with this type of mom. So when things happen and they get hurt by her I want to say something but what? I tell them they don't deserve to be treated like they have been treated when it is true. I try to validate their opinion of the injustice but I can't defend their point of view because it only pokes the bear. She is always willing to escalate any disagreement to several levels higher than any of us are willing to go. She says hurtful and damaging things. If I defend a kid or stand with them we will together take a verbal beating. Only two ways out of the situation, one is physically leave and other is go gray and let her make her point and "win" the argument. I hate it but I don't know another way. So it looks to my kids on the surface like I am a wimp or I don't really care or maybe even agree with their mom. It's so frustrating.

[Poison Ivy]

FWIW, me finding out that my mom has had lifelong mental illness issues and that my ex-spouse has had lifelong mental illness issues helped me understand their behavior, but I also felt guilty and angry (at different times, in different quantities) that I didn't give them a free pass for their bad behavior, that they weren't doing more to deal with their mental illnesses, that I had jumped into the fire (my ex) from the frying pan (my mom) despite knowing about the negative effects of mental illnesses, etc., etc. I think you can substitute "personality disorder" for "mental illness issues" and have the same results. 

[Leonor]

Dear Truthseeker,

Deep breath here. It's red pill time.

You are trying to enlist your adult children as allies in an emotional battle against your ex-wife.


I know that's not what you meant to say. I know that's not what you want to think you want.

But it's what you are doing.

If you truly wanted, clear and free, to alleviate your children's suffering, support them in their adult lives, and build a trusting relationship going forward, you would not talk to them about their mother at all.

You would offer to talk to them about you, how you fathered them, where you may have missed the mark, how you experienced their childhoods, how you can best support them today. You would ask them about how they experience you, and if they have any suggestions for the management! And if they didn't want to talk about it, you would smile, thank them, tell them you love them, and drop it. Forever, unless and until one of them brings it up with you.

All of the rest is interference from your emotional battle with your ex-wife. All the "if only I had known," "I can't believe she," "now it all makes sense," "maybe I should tell them" has one end goal and one end goal only: to have that fantasy moment of you speaking your truth about your ex-wife to her children, and having their faces light up, sigh with relief, and fall into your arms as the strong, compassionate, protective dad you always wanted to be.

First, that is not going to happen. It is just as likely that your children, who have their own experiences with their mother, you, and the two of you together, are not going to be thrilled by the prospect of their father slamming their mother to them. They won't want to gang up on her. You may just wind up alienating them further and pushing them back into their mom's arms, or leave them stranded between the two of you.


Second, that is not helpful for them. Even if they say, "Oh, Dad, thank you so much for your insight!", dishing with them about their mother is hurtful to them. That parentifies them. That makes them a confidant of yours. About your intimate marriage. And that is inappropriate.

Third, if they were ever to say, "Dad, do you think Mom is mentally ill?" your only answer can be, "I'm not a psychologist, so I can't really say. But your experiences and feelings about Mom, me, the family - they're all valid, and I want to support you. How can I best help you do that?" Without diagnosing your ex or talking about your experiences with her as an intimate partner, of course. "Yes, I remember she said that. I can understand how that made you feel. I'm sorry I didn't handle that better," etc.


I find it interesting that you mention that you, currently, are the "black sheep." With whom? Your ex? Well, that's to be expected, right? Or do you mean with your adult children? If so, you're telling yourself a story: "My children are distant from me lately, and I miss them. Maybe my ex-wife is manipulating our children into believing that I'm the Bad Guy in this scenario, and that's why they're being distant. Maybe if I tell them that their mother is mentally ill and tell them stories about our marriage as evidence, they'll realize that I'm a Good Guy and she's the one with the problem!"

You do need allies. You need a good confidant, and supportive peers. You deserve a space where you can think, wonder, chew on, analyze, or just vent. You need a place to grieve for you and your children's loss. It just can't be your children.


Your children are not your allies in an emotional battle with your ex-wife.

Rinse and repeat.

[Leonor]

Hi Truthseeker,

My apologies! I had understood that you and your wife were separated. I'm sorry for my mistake. I just attempted to rewrite my post but too much time has passed for the quick edit option to function. Again, I am sincerely sorry for my mistake.

[Truthseeker1]

Well Leonor, thanks for the big red pill.  That's what I came for. It got caught in my throat for a min but I got it down eventually. I want to argue with you, but you're right. Thank you for reading the post and setting me on a better path. I love my kids and we are pretty close. I do want to help protect and nurture them more than get them on my side. Thank you for helping me not make another mistake and only compound the difficulties. Thank you for your honesty!

[Cat of the Canals]

I was surprised they were not more excited to understand. I thought the light bulb would go on like it did for me and they would be hungry for more. They all seem apprehensive to stir up the hornets nest and would rather let it just sit.

I'm in a slightly different position because my main PD is my mother, but I've had a similar experience with my brother. My mother, like your wife, is extremely high-functioning, and they sound alike in many ways. My brother is willing to admit there is dysfunction, but he wavers as to how severe it is. He's content to complain about our mother for hours on end, but the second I have anything to say about it, he clams up and gets defensive. There was always very much a "don't upset mom" mentality in our family, so I know why he does it. She programmed it in us.

He has also met other PDs (he works in healthcare), and insists she's "not that bad." I believe he's comparing her to people who are not nearly as high-functioning, socially. My PDmil is like that, and she comes across as "off" pretty much immediately. So again, I know where he's coming from. In my opinion, the only real difference is our mother is craftier when it comes to manipulation and control.

I waited for a time when he was really having a hard time with her and gave him a copy of "Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" by Lindsey Gibson. He was much more receptive to the idea of my mother being "emotionally immature." I think it's more comfortable for him to avoid the PD label, for whatever reason. I guess that feels bigger/badder/scarier. Emotionally immature is almost neutral. Perhaps you could buy a copy, read it, and keep it on hand for the next time one of your kids is in the scapegoat seat and reaches out.

[Gman22]

Truthseeker...better late than never.   I'm in similar position but my kids are a bit younger than yours and still at home.

My advice, and I'm new, is to learn all you possibly can.  These boards are great, the toolset is key - read books and educate yourself.

Also, go slowly with the kids.  Focus on being healthy yourself.  On modeling healthy behavior and call out bad behavior for what it is, in the moment if you will. 

Agree with comments to avoid diagnosing and don't feed the kids more than they want or need.  Be very clear and healthy yourself and answer questions or concerns. 

My 16yo daughter is 'awake' now.  But I have never named my wife's PD.  I do answer questions and explain bad behaviors to my daughter.  She has come to me.  I do call out bad behavior .  The words I basically say to my daughter and to the middle kid is that their mom has a difficult personality type and sometimes acts badly.   

Pretty sure my daughter has figured out the name to the patterns, but I very much want my kids to learn how to distinguish right from wrong and good from bad by modeling and by their own observation.

I know your situation is a little different but I think if you provide truth and clarity on what's right and wrong, consistently for your adult kids - you can do a lot of good for them still.

[Truthseeker1]

Thank you for your insights.  My kids are older and have all left the home. I recently left the home as well.  I have decided to take my life back.  She can do what she wants but I will have some boundaries from here forward.  When I established those boundaries, she wasted no time in letting me know there was no such thing in our marriage. I left the home and have not been back in over 3 weeks. I have broken the rule and let several of my friends in on the family secret. They have all validated my relationship was not normal or healthy. They have all provided such love and support like I did not even know was possible. They actually believed me when I described the behaviors.
When I described the situation to each of them they validated the behaviors but when I labeled things it seemed to provoke them to defend her which tended to invalidated me. So the next few people I did not provide labels. I just mentioned behaviors.  They showed empathy and several of them actually asked me later if I thought she might be a narcissist. 
I will steer clear of labels and just deal with behaviors. Seems that is less offensive, scary or threatening to others.

[Leonor]

Hi Truthseeker,

What a relief to receive support and empathy from your friends as you move through this difficult time.

I agree with you in that it's best to avoid labeling your ex's behavior or mental health. For one thing, to the best of your knowledge, she hasn't been officially diagnosed with a specific disorder. Even if she had a diagnosis, others might find the information unwelcome - either because it's confidential medical information, or because it sounds like name-calling.

This is true of your children as well. They may be adults who live outside your home, and they may have their own histories and upset with her, but she is still their mother. They are not your peers, sounding board, confidants, or mediators. You don't have to defend her to them, or refuse to empathize with them, but if you want to maintain a healthy relationship with them, stop complaining about their mother to them.

It might be helpful for you to find a therapist in your area to help you sort through the aftermath of your marriage and the path to peace and healing as you move forward, if only to have a listening ear who is knowledgeable about personality disorders and can truly validate your experiences.

[downwiththefog]

Thanks all for this thread. Reading it, it is so helpful to me.
My uPDw too is very very high functioning and I let her drive the parenting for many years.
I had a crisis about 4 years ago and almost divorced. At the time I made the mistake to use my eldest kids (18) as confidants, but since then they never wanted to hear me complaining, they cut that saying I should grow up, maybe divorce but not complain and do nothing.
A few years later we're still a family, still dysfunctional with her trying to rule and control and raising emotions all the time.
I instead am trying to be emotionally detached from these absurd turmoils. Kids instead engage with her baiting a lot.
If I take the kids side, all hell breaks loose - so I too often am of little help to them. I regret this, but I think they understand I cannot wage another war.
I try to show them unconditional love - not sure how well I succeed in that.

But the insights gained on these forums, the realisation that others go through the same experiences help.