How do I give up?

[Truthseeker1]

I am so frustrated. I have spent over 30 years in relationship with a uNPDW. We have raised four children together. She is an amazing person, but also incredibly toxic due to the PD.
I have just recently come to understand the diagnosis. My head was deep in the fog. I believed her and thought I just needed to do more work on myself. I am miles ahead of where I started and yet the relationship dynamic has not changed on her end. I have made thousands of adjustments. I finally see it for what it is.  now I am grieving the death of a long-term hope. I really want to cherish someone. I would love that in return. I want to be intimate with someone.  The best I can do is love her but part of me hates her at the same time.   her PD has stolen a dream.  I can love her, but I can never be vulnerable with her. So basically, I can never be intimate with her. Because I am married to her I can never really be intimate with someone else either. I hate the situation that I'm in. I have religious issues as well. My marriage does not honor God and it does not reflect, the future marriage between ourselves and Jesus. Looking back, I can really see how I was lied to when I went into the marriage. Who she represented herself to be was not at all who she was. I can't say that they were not signs, but who she was pretending to be, was not truthful. so I entered into this covenant based on a lie. Nonetheless, I did enter into the covenant. I don't really care about the legal aspect of it. Whether I am married, legally or not doesn't carry much weight in my mind. It was really the commitment I made to her , in front of God. For me, that is the binding covenant.  had she been intentionally lying to me I think I could more easily invalidate the covenant. But the reality is, she was lying to me, but not really on her own volition. I don't think that she understands she has a PD. I believe that she thinks she speaks the truth. I the relationship has been very difficult over the years. All the hardship, however, has caused me to grow tremendously. The hard ship has shown a window into the type of love that God has for us. While we were still sinners Christ came and died for us. Christ love for me does not change based on my behavior. So I suppose I can love her like that. I if she can't understand her own diagnosis, then it's hard to crush her with a divorce. I would be doing to her what she fears more than anything , I would be abandoning and discarding her. I would be doing that for my own benefit. So in my mind that translates to a selfish and not a selfless act, the example set by Jesus was selfless. I just feel like I'm at the breaking point. I am not Jesus , I want to be like him but I am really not that good. Another issue is we have four children. What kind of a president am I setting for them? When they have normal issues in their marriages, will they see divorce is an option. What does my attitude say about my faith in God. What does it say about God meeting all of my needs?
I feel like my heart is going to explode trying to process this. For now I hang on, and I trust that God will make away. I cast my burden on him. He knows my every need. His grace is supposed to be sufficient for me. I will live as a martyr, if that's what God desires for my life but I don't think I can do it with a cheerful attitude, which I believe is also his desire for my life. I have so much turmoil inside. It's causing significant physical issues. I just don't know how to go forward. I pray and I wait and I repeat the process. I have moments of relief and moments of severe pain. I am envious of others that get out. I fantasize about my death or her death as a means to escape. I am not talking about murder or suicide. I'm talking about hoping that a meteor would fall out of the sky and take me out. I don't know if anybody else has been here and successfully come out the other side. I would guess some of you had and I would love to hear there is hope.

[Poison Ivy]

I'm sorry you're experiencing this. (By the way, these are not "normal issues" in a marriage. Please consider whether presenting them as "normal issues" might negatively affect your children and might impede their ability to protect themselves from harm.) Is there a religious counselor you could talk to? That might help with some of the struggles.

[moglow]

You seem to be taking on the burdens for all the adults around you, including your children. I get it, wanting to be the example and a faithful follower, I really do. Consider also what this situation is doing to you and your own faith. Being selfless is to relinquish any attempts to control and hand it over to Jesus, all of it. You can't change her. You can't explain her to anyone - it's well and truly not your job, not your place.

Finding acceptance that she is who she is and who she's always been, is a hard process. And you will revisit that over and over until it sticks - it's not a snap of the fingers. No one has to understand her diagnosis, least of all her [HAS she been diagnosed, accepted any responsibility for her behavior? Know too, if she has been diagnosed she's by far not the first to simply accept and carry on unscathed, with no attempt at changing anything]. You can call her a peanut butter sandwich if you want, and the same denials will come. That's HER stuff, you're responsible for your own.

Keep breathing. Keep reading. Keep reaching out and finding those stable places as you are able. They're there!

[square]

There's a lot in your post, and several things I had thoughts on, but for now I just wanted to respond to the idea that God wants you to "cheerfully" accept this burden. I don't buy into that idea at all, that we are supposed to be hollow animatrons, smiling dumbly through all of life's suffering.

You're a person, complex, spiritual, intelligent, feeling, yearning. Those are features, not bugs. The growth you spoke of comes from the pain.

Jesus went to the cross, but did not do so cheerfully. He did it on his own two feet but he first begged to avoid it and then suffered through it.

None of that is to say you must suffer through the marriage, that is for you to decide. It is possible the covenant is different from your current understanding. But either way, I for one don't see the need to add to your suffering by beating yourself up for not being cheerful about it.

We all have resentments, and I think here is where we need to just be careful to keep the resentments from overgrowing and flourishing and taking over. We need to not let ourselves turn truly bitter, or allow our resentments to flood over others (as a narcissist would).

But to have them at all? That's how we recognize injustice. It's how we know something is not right. We check ourselves to be sure it's a real thing, squash it if we're just put out that our neighbor seems to have something we don't, face it if it's something real, and make our own choices from there, on our own two feet.

[Truthseeker1]

Poison Ivy, thank you for your reply.  sorry if I was not clear in my post. I don't consider these "normal issues". I was actually trying to say that they are not at all normal. I would hate for other people including my children to use my circumstance if I were to divorce as a precedent for an option to handle their "normal" marital issues. As far a Christian counselors go, I am seeing one now and he is helping me some. His marriage, however is nothing like my marriage. He does have insight but I don't think he understands the full weight of this type of relationship. He is not in favor of divorce. 
I just think the gaslighting is mind bending and I personally consider it abuse. I bet if I showed up to counseling with a black eye every week he would consider it abuse but my eye looks fine, it's my mind and spirit that are bruised. It's just frustrating.  Sorry I was not clear in my original post about the word "normal"

[Truthseeker1]

Moglow, I don't know how to get her diagnosed. She has a masters in psychology, so basically everyone else has a diagnosis but her. She will admit to not being perfect at times, but will not own a diagnosis herself. I do not know how to get her to objectively look at herself. 

[Truthseeker1]

Square,
You're right, I don't think we are designed to be cheerful all of the time.  We are complex. We are designed to have the whole range of emotions. They all serve their purpose. Our creator demonstrates varied emotions as well, so I am OK with that. my relationship with my significant other is just such a huge part of my life. I believe that God created marriage to be a good thing. We were meant to love and be loved. We are to bear each other's burdens and be stronger together. I believe the whole range of emotions was expected to be present in marriage as well. I'm OK with that also. I just struggle so much in my marriage, even if she does some thing nice I know the bottom will fall out shortly, so I have a hard time even allowing myself to be happy or thankful when it come to her.  If I allow myself to feel loved, then it hurts all the more when I'm devalued and discarded.
As far as the cheerful comment goes, I think I am supposed to have some of that in the marriage, but I can't seem to find it.

[moglow]

My point is that having diagnosis(es) changes little. She doesn't have to accept any diagnosis, none of us do. Her behavior is and will continue to be a problem if she chooses to overlook, justify, excuse them regardless of any labels "we" choose to put on it. It sounds like an exercise in futility. Like I said, I've heard of plenty who actually got a diagnosis and just threw up their hands, well there it is! They did nothing to change or improve the behavior, seek any help in doing so.

Maybe stop trying to put it in "terms" but address the (mis)behavior directly, simply, as it happens. It doesn't always work and may create a shit storm BUT "this right here, the (enter the actual behavior) is not working. It's driving us further apart and solving nothing ..." at least spotlights specific instance that can be addressed.

If either of you uses "you always/never..." or other blanket statements, the other one is going to shut down right there. Guarantee there have been shining moments when the opposite is true for either of you.

[square]

I just struggle so much in my marriage, even if she does some thing nice I know the bottom will fall out shortly, so I have a hard time even allowing myself to be happy or thankful when it come to her.  If I allow myself to feel loved, then it hurts all the more when I'm devalued and discarded.

I'm the same, I'm not able to handle the rollercoaster of YAY HE DID SOMETHING NICE and then feeling devastated by something awful. While all relationships have ups and downs, when they are toxic then the trust fundamentally dies. The ups are meaningless. Go ahead and protect yourself by not being carried along with false ups.

As far as the cheerful comment goes, I think I am supposed to have some of that in the marriage, but I can't seem to find it.

I hear ya. At some point it's okay to conclude that it's not there, as opposed to you not looking hard enough.

And it does really hurt to realize that. We've got your back on that.

[escapingman]

I don't know if anybody else has been here and successfully come out the other side. I would guess some of you had and I would love to hear there is hope.

Hello Truthseeker1, I believe you called me.

I read your post and have been thinking about my reply for a while.

Just to start this off, FORGET religious beliefs to stay. Any given religion would back you on leaving a toxic relationship.

I was you, I did anything I could to change and to accommodate my then wife. I teared my hair out and wondered why things always went wrong, why she always shouted at me, why she cried for no reason.

About 4,5,6,7,8,9,10 years ago I started to feel something was wrong. I got worse by the years. I tried and tried to cope with it, I promised her, we were married, I was not going to abandon her.

3.5 years ago she stepped out of the final line, 3 months later she sealed my decision. Unfortunately just as I was going to start planning how to get out Covid struck - that gave me the worst ever year with being stuck at home with her with no escape.

Fast forward another year and I left a couple of time, she got worse, I found this site and site and started MC an GR. Things got worse as she could not handle my newfound eye opened view.

Another 6 months and I was at breaking point and got to the GP (doctor) and the GP reported the abuse to the police and social services (nothing came out of it).

I got myself a solicitor/lawyer and she started driving my case. EX didn't accept divorce and dragged me into couples counselling, she blamed me and used it all as crying about being the victim.

Eventually I filed for divorce, lied through a nightmare under the same roof for 4 months until I got a court order to have her removed from the house.

1 year of going through the courts, divorce negotiations, selling the house and eventually moving out. A year in HELL.

I am now divorced, in my new house, with my daughter. I am FREE. It was HELL to get free, but I am free. I am free! If you asked me 2 years ago I would never ever imagine I would be where I am now.

Do It, save yourself. It's your life!

Please help yourself, its worth it!

[escapingman]

This was a short recap of something I could write a book or even series about. If you have read or followed any of my threads you might now some of it. I help you in anyway you want me too if I can, just let me know.

Peace be with you.

[escapingman]

Truthseeker1, I forgot to mention I grieved the death of the illusion of what I thought was the truth for a long time. The fantasy was strong, but it has to be put to bed as it was all a fantasy.

[Truthseeker1]

Oh Escaping man, I am so sorry to hear of your plight. I am glad you survived it all and are now free. That freedom is now forever. That is very appealing to me. I am happy you made it out. Sounds like you went through hell but you did make it out. You also saved your daughter from something horrible. Good for you.
I wish I would have seen things for what they are many years ago but better now than never. Unfortunately, I am just dying inside staying where I am. Ironically, her behavior has actually improved some.  Seems that as I use newly learned techniques to avert her rages and protect myself from verbal abuse, that my situation has gotten better to some degree on a certain level. I stop and think that this could be my new reality. You would think that would make me feel better in some way but it absolutely makes me sick. I realize that it is better but in no way is it good. It is better because I have nearly learned to not pour gas on the fire. The fire is still fire. The price for me to not be insulted and hurt by her is to live with almost no meaningful or deep communication. Almost no level of vulnerability is possible. As I have put up my walls and refused to take her bait, yes, I have been attacked less. The thought of this being my marriage for the rest of my life just makes me sick. That's not the agreement I made. I thought I was getting a best friend, a cheerleader and confidant. That's sure not what I ended up with. I have only seen the light for a few months. Now that I see it and it's consequences, I am more stressed than ever before. I hate this type of existence. I am tied in knots. I can't even think straight. I feel unfit to make major decisions in my current state of mind. This is a plot twist in my that I never saw coming. 

[Poison Ivy]

I can relate to your comments, Truthseeker1. Perhaps I could have stayed married forever if I had been comfortable being with a partner who only tolerated conversations that were about him or were not deep or meaningful. Any of my expressions of discomfort in the relationship were met with, "It hurts me when you say that" or continued ghosting or both.

[Truthseeker1]

It was about 3 mo ago that I learned about nbpd. Since then, I have seen everything in a new light. I see a preponderance of evidence supporting the diagnosis. I have also inhaled so much gas over the years that I have zero self-confidence in making the diagnosis. I realize the label is really meaningless on its own but I am just so uncertain of myself. I want to make sure I am on the right path. everything seems to be pointing the same direction but despite that I still struggle to believe it is true. It has painted a much bleaker prognosis than I had imagined.  Consequences of the diagnosis are pretty severe. Moglo gave good advice earlier suggesting pointing out the specific toxic behavior and making a suggestion or setting a boundary and deemphasize the diagnosis. That is very practical advice and I do intend to use that technique. I stay a bit hung up on the diagnosis though because it is actually pretty important to better understand the prognosis. Did you all struggle to believe it when you first learned about the diagnosis?  My confidence with anything related to her is shot. She is so well spoken and convincing. If I wrote her a letter explaining everything I have experienced and what i believe, I bet she could have me believing it was all in error and that I was actually the problem because my family treated me poorly when I was young. She could convince me  in under two hours and I would apologize for even thinking those things about her. That's how it usually ends up in my house. So now I don't discuss much with her and she can't twist it all around.  I read and I learn and it all points the same way. My friend who recently divorced from a narcissistic wife and my counselor both think my assessment is correct, nonetheless, I doubt myself because of the history of gaslighting and the fact that all of our opinions and judgments are heavily influenced by the filter we see things through. For example I learned about narcissism first through my friend. I became  convinced that was the problem. Later on, after studying other diagnosis's,  I learned about borderline personality disorder. Now I believe that she is indeed a borderline with narcissistic tendencies. I am probably closer to the truth now but my original error undermined my confidence a little. Did you all suffer with as much uncertainty? So what was the tipping point that caused you to believe you were correct in your diagnosis assuming your partner never went for evaluation. 

[square]

It takes time. Whether she fits or she doesn't, it will take time for you to learn, observe, process, and come to your own conclusions. Do not share your thoughts with her.

Just keep researching, here and elsewhere (lots of resources on Youtube for example).

Since you asked our experiences, here's mine. I knew about NPD but it was never a fit with my husband, never considered it. But when I heard of BPD, it seemed to fit pretty well, especially the "I hate you / don't leave me" thing.

It seemed like I had found it, but some things were just not quite right. A big thing is that my husband doesn't have a false face or cultivate his image, and he doesn't manipulate. He just lashes out and it can be bizarre. I realized paranoia was a major factor and I felt like Paranoid Personality Disorder was a good fit.

But there were other symptoms that were not related and I felt like the PD part was secondary to something else. Currently I think he may have schizophrenia or schizoaffective, and that he has latent PD traits that flare when he is neurologically inflamed (which is often). But I don't know, it just feels like I got closer to something.

At this point I feel okay not knowing for sure. I did not feel that way before. I needed to learn and observe. I feel comfortable saying I can pick up certain behavioral traits from people, and while I can't diagnose them, I can protect myself. With my husband, Medium Chill has helped some things a lot, but the trust has died and I'm essentially alone.

[Leonor]

Wow, Truthseeker, you are amazing. You've moved from a very deep place of a hurting father into the deepest place of self reflection, even your relationship with God.

True healing rips up the belief we hold dearest about ourselves. It doesn't have to be a religious belief. Mine was that I was a Golden Child. Even after I realized that that belief was a projection of my mentally disordered parents, even after I realized how limiting it was for me, even after I realized how abusive that was, I didn't want to give it up. I wanted to heal from abuse, separate from my family and its belief system
... and still hang onto the title of Perfect Daughter. I didn't want any of the division and pain in my family to be My Fault. I didn't want to make a misstep, say the Wrong Thing, I wanted to be totally blameless and graceful, I wanted to be an innocent victim of everything. I wanted to protect my image of me. It was very, very hard for me to move into a space in which I was innocent of being responsible for the abuse as a child but one hundred percent responsible for how I handled it as an adult, as a friend, as a partner, as a mother. I knew I had to forgive myself, because that's what I had read, but in order to get there I had to look at what there was to forgive in myself. And that was my dark night of the soul.

Truthseeker, your quest for truth is taking you to the very deepest places of healing. But it's not a fun or enlightening or a joyful place to be. There's no relief in the reflection. You are a faithful Christian man, and your faith has given your life meaning and foundation and richness, and you are in an emotionally abusive marriage. Your heart and soul long to be free of the constant suffering. You have loved as long and as true as you can. If you step away, you will hurt your wife and upset your children. Everything you fear may very well come true. And, knowing what you know now, you can not not choose. You picked a perfect username -Sometimes we know ourselves better than we think!

Phew. That's a lot. At the end of my dark night, I emerged like the velveteen rabbit from the children's story. I wasn't perfect. I was quite disfigured. Ugly! Threadbare and old. But real. And I could love and be loved, for real. That is my hope for you.

Truthseeker, you don't have to choose right now, today. Just because you can see the edge of the abyss doesn't mean you have to jump right into it. Your family isn't going anywhere, your wife hasn't changed, and your children are doing pretty well, it seems to me! You've done good, Dad. So can you take the time you need and pray on this?

[escapingman]

Truthseeker, please don't feel sorry for me or anything I gone through. Yes I have gone through hell, but it was worth it. I have started living my best life, I am living right now, not in the past, not in the future, just right now. Yes I have set backs, I get triggered, but I try to drag myself back to NOW as soon as I possible can. I can't change the past, I can't predict the future, but I can decide the now.

Be strong, I can assure you the roses are brighter on the other side, but you have to make them bright yourself.

[Truthseeker1]

So sorry you feel all alone square. That's the part that is really hurting me the most. I think I can learn to cope with the behaviors. I have already seen improvements at the surface but I know what's underneath. I have learned to avoid her triggers and avoid being baited. I can disconnect now and see things more objectively. So now I can prevent or better manage major flair ups but what kind of life is that? I don't want that to be the best it gets. I really want a partner. A real team member. I want that so badly. I try to convince myself that this is a season of self growth. It really is that but deep down, I still really want the other. I am still knew to the process of living with this situation with actual awareness of what it is. I will persevere for now and see what tomorrow brings. For now, I share your pain of being alone.

[square]

Yeah, it's like we have to "handle" our partners, instead of sharing life with them.

"I know what's underneath" - yes, hence my loss of trust. It's too late for it to be enough for him to bite his tongue. We have improvements but they only go so far.