Daughter-in-law has personality issues!

[Juju]

I am usually on this site to get support and advise on my partner but this time I am having a terrible time with my daughter in law.  She seems to totally dislike me, her and my son have 2 young children, she is a professional that works from home. I believe her beef with me goes way back to when the children were babies and she felt I owed babysitting duties, well I have done my share of babysitting and would have done more but she is so rude and disrespectful, she has written rotten emails (a few years ago) was mad at my late mother for sticking up for me and writing her an email telling her to take back her cruel words she had written me. She ghosted my Mom from then on, she has a cold personality and has done the same to me on many occasions. Her and my son also don't seem to have any respect for anyone else's time, as they are so hard to make plans with, they are so self centred and selfish.  Did I mention her mother has had severe mental illness her whole life and I am starting to think my daughter in law may also have major issues also.
My question is (I love my grandkids and son) should I pursue a relationship or just wait for them, I usually always go to their place to drop off things for the kids and visit but they never seem to take any initiative to visit me? 
It alway seems like a one sided relationship.  They mad at my other son at the moment as he left when the house when they both were suppose to show (pre planned) at a certain time and decided to goes somewhere else first which left everyone waiting for them again!!! So now they are pissed at everyone else and don't take any responsibility for their behaviours.

[Leonor]

Hi JuJu,

I'm sorry that there is upset between you and your son's wife. It is clear that you are feeling very hurt and frustrated.

It sounds to me like some boundaries might be helpful. From what I understand, your mother wrote your son's wife an email to reprimand her for what she said to you? The women in your family are too close, Mommy JuJu, too close ... and the drama y'all are creating is alienating the men.

This woman may be difficult for you to relate to, but she is your son's wife. He has made a sacred vow to leave you and cleave to her. If you are truly interested in a relationship with your son and grandchildren, you must treat them as an adult married couple.

Make plans and invitations and communications with their family with your son. Respect his life choices, including his choice of life partner (even if you don't like her as a person.) Leave off diagnosing her, as it will only bring you distress, and focus on building boundaried, respectful relationships with your grandchildren.

[Juju]

I never knew my mother wrote back to her, she told me till a later time, but the email was nasty (the one my daughter in law wrote) and I guess she thought she was sticking up for me.  I've always treated them with respect but when she has been rude and mean I have complained about her behaviour to my son as I feel I may lose it if I confront her. I know this may not be fair but I feel he should speak up for me to her and I hate to see him so in the middle.  I guess this is wrong too, I don't know I will continue to try and have a relationship with my grandchildren and my son with her in the picture or not.

[Srcyu]

Juju
I think if you 'just wait for them' then you could lose them.
It's hard sometimes to realise that our grown up children will put their own families first. Your son, naturally enough, wants his family to be happy including his wife.

It's best not to complain about her to your son because she is his priority now.

I would keep calling round, the grandchildren are used to you doing that. It would hurt them if you stopped. Maybe you would be allowed to take them round to your house?
Acceptance of the limited options left open will be better than fighting for anything different.

[Juju]

Yes you are right hard but I know this is the best, I feel sad that she dislikes me so much as I really haven't given any reason to, but I guess she has her reasons!

[Leonor]

Hi JuJu,

The person putting your son in the middle is not his wife.

It's you.

Your son is adult man. He has a woman in his life. That woman is his wife, whom he has sworn to love and cherish above all others. That woman is the mother of his children. And she will be in his life - as a spouse or not - for the rest of his life, long after you are gone.

If you do not want to drive your son away or drive a rift between the parents of your dear grandchildren, do not complain about his wife to him. You are not a victim here, and your son is not your champion. It is not his job to take sides, judge his wife, or defend you to anyone else.

It is also possible that your daughter in law is distant and mistrusting of you because you are bringing stress and upset into her home.

You are the elder wise woman of the family now. You have an important role to fill. You can have boundaries and set expectations, you can model healthy interactions, you can provide love and support. But you can't do any of that until you let go of your son.

[Call Me Cordelia]

This is going to be some tough love, Juju. I do hope you can receive it in the spirit it's offered. I see some blaring contradictions in your words here, and I really think that resolving those for yourself would go a long way to improving your relationships with your family.

How could I, internet stranger, possibly claim that? Well, on these boards we see a lot of familiar patterns. We see a lot of the same things over and over that really tear relationships apart. I've lived through them, too. And those patterns are here in spades. It's potentially a lot to unpack for each of these, but here goes nothing:

I've always treated them with respect but when she has been rude and mean I have complained about her behaviour to my son as I feel I may lose it if I confront her. I know this may not be fair but I feel he should speak up for me to her and I hate to see him so in the middle.

Complaining about his wife to your son is not treating either of them with respect. You are right that it's not fair... and you're the one putting him in the middle in this scenario. It's triangulation. Please stop doing this.

My question is (I love my grandkids and son) should I pursue a relationship or just wait for them, I usually always go to their place to drop off things for the kids and visit but they never seem to take any initiative to visit me? 
It alway seems like a one sided relationship.

You say you love your grandkids and son. However, daughter-in-law is part of this family too. The lack of love for her is going to come out. If you are perusing a relationship with part of the family only, that's not going to work. A family cannot be divided into loved and unloved parts. (H/t Starboard Song.)

I feel sad that she dislikes me so much as I really haven't given any reason to, but I guess she has her reasons!

You may not agree with her reasons, or understand them, but it sounds like she has tried to communicate them. What was the content of the emails (addressed to YOU) that you found so offensive? You accuse her of being rude and disrespectful, but what is she actually saying? Have you shown her caring, or have you simply written her off and now look for reasons to be offended by her? Her disappointment about babysitting may be one piece of the puzzle, but of course the context isn't here.

I suggest going back and rereading those e-mails, in a spirit of trying to find those missing reasons, from her point of view. It's likely to be a majorly painful thing to do. It would not be overkill to get a therapist to help, even. Internet strangers can be very helpful. So many here have majorly helped me! But we can only do so much, and confidentially is awkward on a public forum.

They mad at my other son at the moment...

This is simply none of your business. I second Leonor's recommendation for boundaries all around.

So, that's not likely the advice you were hoping to hear. But you will get honest answers here, from people who really do understand. I wish you and your family the very best.

[Juju]

you are right but when I say a devastating email, this was over 6 years ago and the email is long gone, I really do wish that I kept them, she was nasty that's all I can remember she is a snide and blunt person who says things that hurt others but according to everyones advise I just have to suck it up and treat her with love and respect and try to be a part of the family. OK i'll try hard sometimes to ignore her comments but I have in the the past and will continue to do so, all to keep the peace and harmony in the family!

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

Suck it up and go along to get along is not what I'm saying at all.

You'll try hard "sometimes" to ignore her comments? Please. You are consistently ignoring her comments. Apparently you are blocking out everything about them except how YOU feel.

Well, feelings are not facts. You are telling this story of how kind and loving and self-sacrificing you are being when you actually feel quite the opposite. You have not said one kind or loving thing about your DIL in this whole thread, and have given no evidence of her being rude or nasty other than your own feelings. And this is obviously NOT working to keep peace and harmony in your family.

I have a mother-in-law much like you. I haven't spoken to her in six years. That decision has brought much peace to my family.

[Leonor]

Hey JuJu,

We really are trying to support you in experiencing greater harmony in your family and strengthening your relationship with your son and his family.

It's not about trying to like your daughter in law as a person independent of her role in your son's life or tolerating abuse. No one here would suggest that.

What Cordelia and I are trying to point out is that your fixation on you as a victim and your daughter in law as the Bad Guy is exactly what's getting in the way of you having a harmonious relationship with your son and his family. We're suggesting you step back and consider your own responsibility in this breakdown, and find ways to create boundaries that protect you, honor your son's choice of life partner, and establish a common ground of decency with the mother of your grandchildren.

The "I guess I have to suck it up" part, dear JuJu, is just a tad dramatic. It's a very human way to feel - we've all felt that at times - but it's not a game plan that will take you anywhere.

You mention that you usually post about troubles you're experiencing with your partner. Is it possible, dear JuJu, that that is where your attention should be? On strengthening your relationship with yourself, and stop sucking up cruelty from your partner, and establishing a sense of peace and harmony in your own life?

Sometimes it's easier for us women to displace our dissatisfaction with our husbands onto our sons. After all, we're used to being the center of our son's universe. We were his first crush, and he was our very heart.

But we have to let our little boys go, Mommy JuJu. They are not little babies with toothless grins and pudgy fingers wrapped around our hand anymore. We have to cede ground to the woman who will accompany him throughout his real life, support him in his triumphs and stand by him in his challenges. We are backstage players now, and must fade from his vision if he is to have any hope of growing into the strong, noble man we've raised him to be.

And that means turning our attention away from our adult children and towards ourselves. What do we want for us, now that our children are grown? And if you don't have what you want, on your own, without the visits and the holidays and the birthday parties, dear JuJu, that's what you can change. You don't have to suck any of that up!

[Juju]

thanks for the advice

[BeautifulCrazy]

Sending you loving support Juju. 

I was recently venting to a friend. She then gave me her perspective on the relationship we were discussing and it sounded very similar to the feedback you have received here. Tough love.

It was super difficult to hear.

After a week of ruminating on it, feeling indignant and betrayed, I took it to my therapist. During my session I came to the conclusion that I trusted my friend and that I would therefore entertain the possibility that her interpretation was correct. I did this very reluctantly. At first I only ACTED outwardly as though it was possible. I said all the "correct" things in therapy while inside I was still holding my own belief that my friend and my therapist were probably wrong.

So....

-I am currently doing some brushing up on boundaries and clear communication (I was being pretty passive aggressive, which is a decades old pattern I have with this person). I am re-reading 'Boundaries' by Cloud and Townsend. I am reading the toolbox and the traits here and holding myself accountable.
-I am trying to clarify with myself exactly what my needs and expectations are in this relationship, and whether they are really reasonable or not. Sigh, some of them are NOT reasonable, as it turns out.
-I am practicing compassion. For the other person, and for my flawed self. It sucks to realize I am a part of the problem.
-One of my next steps will be initiating discourse and listening with the goal of understanding the other person's experience, instead of projecting my own issues or preconceptions onto them. Which I have, unfortunately, been doing. I think it is going to be really hard for me to let go of the usual script where I cast myself as the more reasonable person, the one who makes all the right efforts, the "better" person. I have been looking through this lens for decades and old habits die hard.

My experience of many years here on the forum is that people posting here can be trusted, are generally speaking from a place of non-judgement and love, and they tend to be pretty close to the mark. (Just like my friend and my therapist!) Therefore there is usually something of value to be had from their wisdom or experience.
Thank you for your very honest posts, Juju. I am looking forward to your future posts/ reflections about this situation with your family members as I go through my own similar stuff. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

  for you, BeautifulCrazy, for your humility and vulnerability here! It's really refreshing to hear someone taking such ownership of her own part of things. As hard as I'm sure it was, doing that and being honest about your own part allowed you actually make a positive change in the relationship. Amazing.     

[BeautifulCrazy]

Let's not celebrate yet Call Me Cordelia! I have not actually interacted with this person yet, so the changes so far are small shifts, and purely internal.

I actually feel physically ill when I think about the future encounters where I will have to live out my self-standards instead of acting petty and obtuse... because now I know a bit better.

(And a shout-out to Hopeful Spine, whose agonizingly honest self reflection and relentless self reconstruction are my biggest inspiration right now. )

I don't want to hijack Juju's thread. These are tough and probably common issues for those of us recovering from PD relationships.
Like the proverb goes: If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

[Hilltop]

Hey Juju, that sounds very stressful.  A couple of thoughts came to mind as I read.  It does seem like they are disrespectful towards other people's time.  If there is a disagreement between your two sons I would leave them to sort out their issues. If you also have problems with them disrespecting your time I would mention this to your son,  not in a blaming way but in a way to set out your boundaries with them.  It may be for eg. that you organise dinner for 7pm and they don't arrive on time.  Let them know when dinner is set and let them know that if they don't make it on time a plate can be warmed for them later when they do arrive.  This sets out your boundaries. Tell them beforehand what will happen if they don't turn up.  This way no one else is inconvenienced by their lateness.  They may fuss over this but when they see everyone getting on with it without them they can decide if they want to be there on time or not.  Main point is not to be upset with them but just tell them your plans and what will happen.  What they choose to do with that information is up to them.

I would say your daughter in law knows what you have said about her to your son.  Because of this she may feel hurt, she may feel a lack of trust toward you.  She is an adult,  if you have a problem with her,  speak to her.  By going behind her back it may have had the appearance of wanting to cause trouble in their marriage.  This is not what you are wanting to do but likely how it comes across to her.  If you found out someone was talking about you behind your back what would you think.  I would not talk about her again to your son.

You don't have to like her. However if she is the mother to your grandkids it's easier if you try to get along.  Be kind,  be polite.  You don't have to be friends with her. I wouldn't go over to their house unless they know you are coming.  Don't go uninvited.  It may be something done in your family but may not be something your daughter in law is use to. 

Keep making an effort to reach out and see the grandkids. If you enjoy that relationship then make the effort.  If the effort isn't being returned that's on your son.  If you feel it's a one sided relationship that is something to talk to him about but not to blame your daughter in law for.  It's on your son to maintain contact.

These relationships are tricky.  They aren't easy. We can only control our own actions,  so start there,  it then takes time for hurts to heal.  Don't hold onto the past,  realise you have both likely hurt each other and moving forward try a new approach to the relationship.  You don't have to accept snide, rude comments. Find a couple of phrases that you are comfortable with to handle any snide comments. Even starting with a neutral 'what do you mean by that' gives your daughter in law an opportunity to explain herself.

Snide comments are really hard to approach.  If you say nothing you feel awful and if you speak up it can blow up.  I also find this sort of behaviour hard to deal with.  You aren't alone there. 

These are tough and complicated issues.  Most of us are struggling through trying to find the right balance. 

[Juju]

Thank you for the hug beautiful crazy, I did need that! You and Cordelia are right I should have not talked to me son about her, not fair to make him feel in the middle I really need to talk to her the next time she is inappropriate and mean.  I guess I have a hard time articulating exactly the things that have happened but there have been many and she has reacted badly. She even told my other son and his wife not to leave their newborn with me. I feel asleep once on their couch from exhaustion while babysitting their 5 month old, she blew up my phone because she could hear the baby crying and see on the monitor, well talk about over reaction, this is the story of it all.  I always felt like I was being spied on, anyway that was a long time ago but that is just one incident.  She is the type of person who is a professional, smart as can be but has no warm or tack, a perfect house and I guess the life she always wanted, I always feel that she doesn't have the time of day for me.  The tough love Cordelia gave me is true, the advise Hilltop gave me is more practical and makes more sense to me, this is advise I can and will use.
Lots of Love and appreciation to everyone who replied.



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[bloomie]

to each of you for working through this and sticking together to help Juju. And Juju  to you for staying the course and being willing to see what others may see and receiving some tough insights to process as you fight for understanding and wisdom to stay connected to your family.

Did I mention her mother has had severe mental illness her whole life

Out of everything in this entire thread this ⬆️ is what stood out to me the most. I could very well be wrong, but I am betting that much of what you need to know to understand your dil is right here. The defensive posture, the hyperviligence with the baby and the monitor, the lack of trust, the possible perfectionism, the shield of harsh words and sarcastic comments...

Juju, you have a mother's heart and I am wondering just how badly your dil needs a mom. Given the history of difficulties between you both it may take some time to rebuild enough trust to even begin to get barely past your dil's defenses and it may be that she wears a porcupine coat and you can only handle so much that way, but at least you can see her through the lens of a woman who has dealt with a lot and is determined to get it right for her family. My heart goes out to both of you.

Sometimes we can't have the up close and warm relationship we so wanted with an in law. Sometimes before we realize what may be at the heart of an in law's prickly pear words and behaviors we have already withdrawn in shock and pain. Sometimes our elders get in the mix and the stories of an in law's misdeeds start making the rounds. None of which promote connection, trust, love and familial understanding. Which is what I believe you are saying you want  more than anything. For that to flow from you and to you with your son and dil.

As you consider all of this my hope is that you will continue to reach out. In small, consistent and thoughtful ways. That you will determine what is your side of the street to clean up and what is not yours to do. If you overstepped and spoke out of turn, own it and make it right if you believe that is appropriate.

It is said that that most important thing we can do in loving our sons is loving his wife and children well. I believe I can hear and see, from what you have shared, that you truly desire to do that, but that you have been faced with a dil that is armored up and is somewhat of an enigma to you.

I am not suggesting you deny the hurts you have and potential for hurt going forward. Process those feelings as they come and do what you can to not let them make the decisions in these vitally important relationships.

And keep coming back and letting us know how you are all doing.

[Juju]

thank you Bloomie, you brought a tear to my eye, everything you said is so true and thoughtful, I'm sure I'll refer back to it many times.

[moglow]

Heck Bloomie, you made me tear up as well! This whole thread speaks to my own assumptions of other people's motives and [possible] excuses. I don't think we're to try and excuse them outright or roll over as doormats, but maybe change the way we listen, set aside my/our own defensiveness and not take their stuff on as ours. It's damned hard to set aside past hurts and insults, but if we go into every interaction expecting that [because that's what we know], I have to wonder now what I/we are also putting out there without realizing. We do what we know, what we were taught, and when we know better we do better.

My mother's first, last and perpetual response to any interaction that isn't all about and totally complimentary of her is to throw up and protect imaginary barriers. She assumes everything directed at her is an insult, and will typically head that off at the pass with insults of her own. She's good at after a lifetime of practice. Any attempt to ask questions or seek understanding and she digs down deeper.

Just a ramble on my part, but this is all certainly giving me food for thought too.