Strange behaviour in OH

[HelenofTroy]

Hi All,

I'm looking for some help/guidance.

I've recently started dating a guy that I've dated previously.

He's 14 years my senior and characterises himself as 'dominant'

I've never come across this before  when dating, but assumed it to be more sexual as opposed to in every day life... It's not.

We began talking in late 2021. It was incredibly worldwind and exciting. We spoke intensely online for a month and found out we had so much in common.

I asked could I see him between Christmas and new year he said yes, but claimed not to be feeling 100% so we didn't meet up.
He was also a single parent of an early teen , so the suggestions were little more than coffee.

After over a week of trying to no avail, I pressed him.

He responded with the following:

"If you are going to see me it will be on my terms, which you will either agree with/to or not. I will have no problem with any decision you make based on that. I hate feeling pressured in any way."

I was taken-aback but he quickly shifted back to his usual chatty self and I glossed over it and we did start to date.

Fast forward a few months and he's still constantly entertaining attention from other women.  He's very attractive so I expect it to a certain degree but not in a way that's disrespectful. It eventually comes between us and we break it off.

Unfortunately as I said, we have lots in common with genuine overlapping interests. (We are both academics in the same field.)
My feelings never really subsided and a year later we started dating again.

We've been dating for 3 months. It's more involved than the last time but he's being very tricky of late and I'm starting to think he has a serious personality disorder.

Again the same kind of need for female attention, which irritates me less the second time around, but it's still there and ever present.

He refuses to plan in advance, which I feel is only because he knows I like to.
He sees me most days, so I don't think it's because he's sleeping with someone else. It just feels unnecessarily controlling that he wants to only be asked on the day of, if he wants to hang out. He has no problem making a plan with anyone else.

Now we're semi stable in each others company and see each other most nights, we text less.
But recently I've noticed he's staying awake until 3/4am on Instagram presumably to his female fan club... and potentially in the same way he secured my affection in the beginning.

We are just dating and haven't made the relationship official. I don't mind this approach personally but if I did, I do feel there would be resistance to formalise things on his part

I'm really beginning to think he's a narcissist, but it could be something else.
Does anyone have any advice or had similar experiences?

Thanks in advance.

Helena

[Leonor]

Hi Helen,

You've dated this man before, and that means it didn't work out back then.

You're dating him now, kind of, and he hasn't changed at all.

In fact, he's very honest with you. He will dominate you. That means he will dismiss your opinions, discount your feelings, diminish your importance, and rage if he feels challenged. And his actions are perfectly consistent with his words. He's not deceiving you. He's telling you and showing you that he is abusive.

And you're wondering if he has a personality disorder? And are still pursuing a relationship with him?

Well, maybe he does and maybe he doesn't. Maybe he's a textbook psychopath and maybe he doesn't meet enough criteria to be diagnosed as anything. He sounds textbook grandiose narcissist to me, and as a former academic I know the old ivory tower is stacked with 'em. All those adoring undergraduates, those admiring grad students, the cheap research assistants, the large lecture halls, the international speaking gigs, the little pieces of paper hung in cheap frames on the walls. And the politics of a small department where they're all jockeying for position among themselves!

But in the end, what does that matter?

He's good looking. And he reads the same books as you. As far as I can tell, that is the extent of your mutual interests (said interest being him.)

More concerning to me is the trauma bond you're forging, link by link, with this guy. That's worth exploring. What is it about you that finds this person attractive? What abandonment, dismissal, diminishment are you replaying here? Why do you convince yourself that you're not worthy of a kind, smart, attentive and attractive man in your life? Where did that come from? Where else does it play out in your life?

[bloomie]

Hi HelenofTroy! Welcome to Out of the FOG! I am glad you have found us and joined the community.

When we write it all out here on Out of the FOG, it really can seem like things unfold in a clear cut, black and white manner with people we are strongly attracted to irl. But, it isn't really like that, is it? The red flag stuff can be intermittent and inter-mingled with great interactions and really lovely times. 

That is one of the greatest benefits of a community like this. You write it out and others weigh in and it can clarify if a relationship is working for us or not.

None of us can diagnose another, but we can look at patterns of behaviors over time that are consistent and that may predict heartache ahead.

If you want a casual relationship with a man that has made it clear the relationship will be on his terms and he doesn't seem too concerned with if you like that or not, then this is the guy for you.

If you are looking for an man who is available, tender, caring, devoted, interested in your inner world and experiences and not on SM half the night entertaining other ladies, then this may not be the guy for you.

We are here to support you as you figure that out!

[Cat of the Canals]

I'm really beginning to think he's a narcissist, but it could be something else.

Regardless of what it is, he's made it pretty clear that he puts himself and his wants and needs first and you a distant second. Are you happy with that? If you end up staying with him for X months or years, will you still be happy? Think about what you want and need and ask yourself if he can give that to you. Be honest. If it's a casual dating relationship, then maybe the answer is yes - what he gives is enough. But if you want anything more, then this really sounds like you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

Welcome, Helena.  I agree with everyone's replies to you. 

I must say, in my experience with someone who starts early with the "it will be on my terms" and "he refuses to ____ and I believe it's only because he knows I like to," things did not improve with time.  I got the "boil the frog" treatment (steadily increasing the temperature but slowly enough that the frog doesn't jump out of the pot).

Later I read that this is typical of abusive partners.  They need to keep upping the ante to get you accustomed to more and more controlling and hurtful behavior while mixing it in with enough good stuff to keep you in there.  I'm not sure where I read about it, probably "Why Does He Do That?" which was a very enlightening read I sucked down (free online pdf) in one night.   

There's a lot to explore on this sight, too.  Keep posting and letting us know how you're doing!

[HelenofTroy]

Thank you for your kind responses.
I feel really terrible at the moment.

He's discarded me, I've been trying to psychoanalyse and prove my love even though deep down I knew he'd made his mind up the second he made a complete mountain out of a molehill last week. It was disproportionate and confusing. I asked a reasonable no pressure question about next steps because I felt his pull away dynamic.

I did not mention I'd seen him online until 3am.
I just asked if he still felt positive about the way things were going.

He told me I was crazy then autistic and that the one thing he asked was for me to relax and chill. Stop trying to formalise everything and let him get to know me (we've known each other since 2021) at his own pace.

I racked my brains trying to understand his perspective as if it were i coming on too strong, am I moving like a chess piece and suffocating him, even though I know this isn't the case...we've been dating 3 months and seeing each other 3/4 times a week. 20+ dates , sleeping at his house the odd time and a previous history of course. This notion he needs or wants to get to know me better is comical.

Everything but faced the reality - he doesn't want to be with or commit to me (and never has). When he feels any pressure (real or perceived) he immediately seeks fresh meat and almost enjoys how emotional and hurt I feel as a result.

He'll read all my messages and purposely ignore me knowing the silent treatment causes me the most pain.

During my last correspondence (which will most definitely be my last) I lost my temper a bit after 9 days of sustained push pull dynamics.

I called him sadistic and heinous.
He simply read them, didn't respond and must've slept soundly.

These humans! Honestly!

[xredshoesx]

helen i think he did you a favor by initiating the discard but i know i know i know it still hurts because you were more invested in the success of the relationship than he was.

one of my first forays into the dating pool was a similar experiment and actually led me to looking for help for ME.  after i finally broke things off with my exUPD bf, i started 'hanging out' with someone i knew before i was with my ex that had red flags for his red flags but still i ignored this and tried to make what was a very one sided friendship into my next relationship....... for me the breaking point was when we went to a club and he was collecting other phone numbers IN FRONT OF ME.  i started googling and cut him off off off before he became the new albatross around my neck.  then i found out about my own role in what happened and got help for me, much in the same way you've reached out to us here.

he will reach back and try to get in your life again if his next candidate gives him the cold shoulder.  stay strong. you are worth MORE than a man who treats you like you described.   don't let this set back keep you at home in misery.  what helped me move forward, was making a check list of what i would no longer tolerate in ANY relationship and i stuck to it like it was my RELIGION as i was still trying to date and all that.  i still met a lot of men who were not in it to win it with me, but the great thing was that i could quickly figure that out and keep it moving.

you are worth WAY MORE than he is giving you. 

[HelenofTroy]

You're right xredshoesx he has done me a favour, it just doesn't feel like it as yet.

I'm sorry this happened to you. When I was reading your experience I could fully empathise. It's definitely something he would've done too.

In meetings he used to drool over one particular woman who was in a relationship and triangulate her for a rise. I'd never rise of course, because I knew she was flirting with zero intention ultimately it was born out of his insecurities.

There would be times we'd be having coffee and instead of keeping to the task at hand he would be transfixed if a beautiful woman walked into the shop and his gaze would follow her.  Again no reaction from me just incase it was set up for one.

I was too busy trying to stem behaviour he defined as crazy - which was everything that sought to hold him accountable for being a sh*tty person.

I only really have myself to blame.
I definitely need help for allowing myself to put up with this.

Work is going to be hell going forward.

His last response to my heinous outburst was Goodbye, Helen.

He's so condescending and full of himself.

[square]

we've been dating 3 months and seeing each other 3/4 times a week. 20+ dates , sleeping at his house the odd time and a previous history of course. This notion he needs or wants to get to know me better is comical.

I'm thinking I must have misunderstood this part, but it concerned me.

20+ dates and three months of dating is still very much in the "getting to know you" stage. Even if you've known him for a couple of years prior.

In fact, this all happened because you were still getting to know him. And if often takes a lot longer to get to this point.

[HelenofTroy]

Hi Square,

Could I please ask what has concerned you?

This particular time period was this. But we have dated before. The first time we were romantically involved was January 2021.

We know each other well and have spent untold amounts of time alone together.

It's only when it starts to become a relationship does he start to ramp up his nasty dismissive behaviour. We have officially dated for 3 months twice now.

Outside of that we also went on sporadic no strings attached, non physically intimate dates for a period of around 6 months too.

It's very confusing.

[square]

The reason I brought it up as a concern is in case you might be used to (and have normalized) very fast relationships.

These open you up to love bombing, issues with boundaries and keeping your individuality, making it harder to discern red flags, increasing the chances you will make moves that bind you closer to the romantic partner and make it harder to leave, and so on.

It's worth considering if it may be a pattern.

You may feel you actually had a long and close romantic relationship, but in your quote you cite dating for three months and having 20+ dates as being evidence that him feeling he is still getting to know you as "comical."

I certainly can easily believe that he was just giving you a bs excuse to have things his way. No issue there. But I still worry that your response to that was what is was, not because I wonder if he had a point (I don't), but because it seemed to convey some assumptions about what timeline is normal in getting to know someone.

And of course getting to know someone on a romantic/intimate level is not the same as knowing them as a friend, no matter how many years (or decades even) that may have been.

[HelenofTroy]

This particular stint lasted 3 months and consisted of 20+ dates but in total we have been dating on and off across 2 years, probably dating the equivalent of a year just in blocks controlled by him. I couldn't quantify the amount of time we've actually spent alone together - it's a lot.

That's why I said it was comical, because he definitely knows me and we haven't rushed into anything. He's utilised this dynamic to his advantage.

I don't tend to rush into things, but I do value monogamy when things become physical.

I'm not sure why I've allowed myself to exist in this game of his. When I first met him years ago - I tried to define the relationship immediately as casual. I wasn't looking for anything remotely serious from him.

I was open about this he acted offended by this presumably because he wanted full control and forced a more committed relationship dynamic, but definitely one that expected me to be at his beck and call without any needs myself.

He's 14 years my senior he's not what I set out to find. He found me and proceeded to make sure I became his play thing.

There have been times I had to leave work spaces because of his intimidating behaviour. I've had to resign from community groups. He's a local hero.

I felt quite triggered when you first messaged because I know if I made this public knowledge he would be believed and I would be the problem.

I probably need to investigate those feelings too.

I'm really grateful for your time and help.

[square]

Ah, no, I believe you and not him, no worries there.

[xredshoesx]

helen if you were younger that age gap could be considered predatory.  he knows exactly what he's doing and is a master of manipulation.   be gentle with yourself - you've been through a lot over the last few years with this one.

in my own research to figure out why i made the choices i did, i found that i was still trying to fix other people bc i couldn't fix my uPD mother.  getting that insight helped me to move forward beyond the behaviors i engaged in that made it easier to get involved in one sided relationships - both romantic and platonic - where i was making myself available to be taken advantage of. 

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

I haven't started dating yet - not ready to.

If I had a thought that someone was a narcissist, that would be enough for me to move on.  I wouldn't spend my life proving it or disproving it - if it's a thought / feeling / whatever, I'd be done.  That feeling or hunch would never go away - it might quiet, but it would be there.