“Accountability 101”

[DCF1952]

I stumble on posts/memes about accountability and I just don't know how to feel about this because I am constantly accused of having malicious intent if I make a mistake or having my words twisted and when I insist that something was an honest mistake or my tone was taken out of context I am told that I'm just not taking accountability. Here's an example: (I couldn't figure out how to add the screen shot)
The title is: accountability 101
Photo of broken egg
And then a list with check boxes
"I meant well"
"That was not my intent"
"I broke the egg"

[SonofThunder]

Hi DCF1952

First, the Out of the FOG forum does not utilize the ability to share images directly on the forum, so a screen-shot share is an incapability.  Second, I did not read a question in your post, but I will play along on the topic.

Imo, PD's and others who may receive fuel from drama, live in the realm of the dance of the Karpman Drama Triangle. There are three roles in the dance. Each dancer plays a different role and the dancers switch roles (2 or 3 dancers) in the repeating cycle-dance. Each cycle of the triangle provides fuel for the PD/drama-lover. 

1. Perpetrator
2. Victim
3. Rescuer

Imo the key to the dance for the non-PD is to not dance at all.  Since accountability follows responsibility, the key to accountability is to properly boundary one's responsibility at the onset.  Accountability (after the fact) is a useful tool in the hands of a PD, as they move from perpetrator to victim.  Victim is always the desired dance role for the PD. 

Using your checklist, imo the photo of a broken egg is the PD playing perpetrator (silent accusation of responsibility to the non) and then immediately handing the perpetrator role to the non (the PD slides over to the victim role without asking to switch) by the accountability questions (responsibility pre-assigned by the PD to the non-PD).

Choosing a check-box is what the PD desires from the non-PD, as it allows the PD to be the victim of a broken egg and the non-PD assigned that perpetrator role as the responsible breaker of eggs.  Imo, accountability does not exist without responsibility, so getting oneself free of the accusation of responsibility is the key.  Don't dance

Solution?  Silently, buy two boxes of eggs. Write the PD's name with a permanent marker on one box and your name on the other. You break as many of your eggs as you desire, never touch the PD's box of eggs and don't respond ever again to a photo of a broken egg.

SoT

[Rebel13]

Solution?  Silently, buy two boxes of eggs. Write the PD's name with a permanent marker on one box and your name on the other. You break as many of your eggs as you desire, never touch the PD's box of eggs and don't respond ever again to a photo of a broken egg.

Awesome!

[DCF1952]

Thank you for the reminder that part of the "game" is to become the victim. I hadn't quite equated victimhood with the tables *always* being turned on me. But yes. It makes sense.

Along these same lines- the concept of tone policing is also really hard for me to grasp. Because his tone, his delivery, volume, intonation and the way he says things are a huge part of the abuse. Whether its because he's being passive aggressive and intentionally talking so that I can't hear him, or mumbling insults just loud enough for me to hear, or whether he's screaming over me because he can scream louder. The biting my head off because I asked a question. Other times its just the way he's saying something that just oozes with contempt. How do I reconcile that?

[SonofThunder]

How do I reconcile that?

Please define what you mean by "reconcile", in relation to the experiences you described above.

You wrote "tone policing", yet you described HIS manner.  I did not read in your writing that he was policing YOUR manner. Since proper boundaries are recognizing that we can only control our own actions & reactions, and not those of another adult, the only thing we can control (in what you wrote) are:

"...so that I can't hear him."

"...just loud enough for me to hear."

"screaming over me because..."

"...I asked a question."

You can therefore design a self-protective boundary with hearing, asking and raising our voice. 

Hearing: when you recognize the manipulative tone, end all discussion and leave his presence. 

Asking: Listen and observe but don't ask a question. If questions are unproductive or draining, then why ask?  If a response is appropriate, then medium-chill/grey-rock the response.

Raising our voice:  This is food/fuel/trophy for a PD's motive.  Don't give them the pleasure.  Medium-chill/grey-rock is your own victory. 

SoT

[DCF1952]

Correct he's not policing me. I provided some examples of things he does, and I feel, (at least under the definition of tone policing), if I were to take issue with those behaviors, then it would be me that is tone policing, right?

[SonofThunder]

Correct he's not policing me. I provided some examples of things he does, and I feel, (at least under the definition of tone policing), if I were to take issue with those behaviors, then it would be me that is tone policing, right?

Thank you for the clarification. 

Imo/Ime, a PD's motive is based on 'self'.  I believe a PD is lacking in the 'self' department and therefore parasitically feeds off their chosen host.  I use the parasite wording because the feeding eventually depletes the host.  Predator and prey is another way to think about the feeding.  Host-maintenance is ime, not a concern for a PD.  The experiences you earlier described are used like a fishing lure; their intent to draw the host from out of protective cover and engage the lure, so the PD can hook the host in the lip and reel them closer for a feeding session.

Imo, if I am tone-policing a PD, then I have taken the lure they present.  Therefore, in future proper boundary control, I cannot control the lure presented to me, but can learn from my previously sore lip, not to be drawn out of cover again.  I will no longer tone-police a PD; i will either walk away when my silent radar detects the tone lures (the experiences you describe) or I will simply perform (mc)medium-chill/(gr)grey rock, which may escalate the emotions of the PD, so I have to be ready for my next level of self-protection, which is to not be in the PD's presence. 

Tone policing depletes my mental energy and imo, it's not worth the expense. Allowing my radar to detect the lure of the PD's manipulative tactics is good, but that indication on the radar should set the toolbox in motion, which expends my energy on self-protection vs trying to control the actions/reactions of the PD. 

I also never forget the Karpman drama triangle roles described earlier.  A PD is a master at role switching and when they switch, they assign the non one of the other two roles.  The PD may be a 'victim' of our question, which causes them to escalate (throw the lure) as a 'perpetrator', and then when we respond (take the bait) to the escalation, they become the desired victim again. The cyclical drama-dance may happen over and over in one interaction as the PD feeds in the cycle.  Again, imo the key for the non, is to recognize and then stop dancing. (use the toolbox).

SoT

[LemonLime]

SonofThunder, your description of the Karpman drama triangle and how the PD plays it is masterful.  It describes my PD sib perfectly.  I find this knowledge so valuable in dealing with PDs (and even nons sometimes).

Eckhart Tolle also describes a "feeding" pattern and calls the feeder the "pain body".  Slightly different than the Karpman visual, but it also helps me to understand.

Creepily, my PD has quoted the Karpman Drama Triangle to me, telling me I play all the roles in order to manipulate her.  Also I've been accused of triangulating.   PD has grad degree in psych.   It's all so.....well, creepy is the word that comes to mind.  It's like finding out "the call is coming from inside the house". 

Thanks for providing the insight.

[SonofThunder]

SonofThunder, your description of the Karpman drama triangle and how the PD plays it is masterful.  It describes my PD sib perfectly.  I find this knowledge so valuable in dealing with PDs (and even nons sometimes).

Eckhart Tolle also describes a "feeding" pattern and calls the feeder the "pain body".  Slightly different than the Karpman visual, but it also helps me to understand.

Creepily, my PD has quoted the Karpman Drama Triangle to me, telling me I play all the roles in order to manipulate her.  Also I've been accused of triangulating.  PD has grad degree in psych.  It's all so.....well, creepy is the word that comes to mind.  It's like finding out "the call is coming from inside the house". 

Thanks for providing the insight.

Thanks for your kind words LemonLime.  Your psych-trained sib description is an excellent example of projection. 

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/projection

DCF1952 originally described the experiences of "...constantly accused of having malicious intent",  in which the accusations are themselves, malicious intent; another projection.  #motiveiseverything

SoT

[DCF1952]

I remember the first time I was accused of something so bizarre. It was something that had never even crossed my mind. So if it's projection, does that mean that it's something that they could/would do in that scenario?

[SonofThunder]

I remember the first time I was accused of something so bizarre. It was something that had never even crossed my mind. So if it's projection, does that mean that it's something that they could/would do in that scenario?

Hello DCF1952,

My own experiences with projection is that I am being accused of doing same-subject thing that my accuser is actually doing. 

For example, I may be calmly stating something to which the PD does not approve, and the PD raises their voice loud in the opposing viewpoint, to which I continue calmly in my stance.  The PD, facing my continued steadfastness, verbally escalates their argument and in the process, accuses me of yelling at them and then stomps off in drama-triangle victimhood of my falsely accused yelling.

Imo, projection is 'same-subject'.  I am accused of thinking/doing the very thing the PD is thinking/doing.  They may be thinking/doing in secret.  Raising that up a notch, when my uPDstbx would question me if I was having online chats with women because she just sees me on my phone, that was a projection flag that she may actually be chatting with men online.  I will never know whether she was and frankly I don't care, but those two are examples of projection from my own experiences. 

Ime, the two PD's in my life, live in hypocrisy and imo hypocrisy is a form of projection.  The PD will stand-for or embrace something because it's a good image to assist/project in sustaining some sense of their desired 'self', but in reality and/or in private, they do the opposite. 

I am of the opinion that projection is 'same-subject'.  So using your original example, if I was sent a text photo of a broken egg by the PD in the perpetrator role and given choices that allow them to switch roles to their desired victimhood, then knowing that projection is a trait of a PD, I may assume that the PD is 'breaking/has-broken' something.  Same subject is 'broken'.  The PD may have 'broken' something altogether different, such as an item, a vow/promise, a law or frankly anything they are trying to cover over by projecting the fault of 'breaking' onto me. 

I have my own term for similar experiences which are different-subject, and I call it 'smoke-screening'.  Whenever my PD's stir up a dust cloud of drama, it is an indicator that something (projection or smokescreening) is going on in their lives that I may need to be aware of, because it can affect me.  The dust cloud of smoke-screening they may stir up is typically created to divert attention away from something the PD is doing, has done or desires to do, but has nothing in common with the subject of the drama dust cloud they create. That dust cloud from a PD may actually come in the form of excessively lavish praise of me. It takes investigation, but the drama is the indicator that some investigation by me should occur, in order to understand.  As always, the toolbox is at my ready both in the drama and in the investigation of truth. 

SoT

[DCF1952]

Hi SoT,
Can you help me gain some clarity to this situation-

I am putting our small children to bed. He is downstairs aggressively yelling at the tv (sports, I guess?). It happens once- I don't say anything. The second or third time, I text him and say,"Please stop yelling."
He says- "That was barely anything. Do you try hard to give me stuff? It feels like nothing gets unsaid."

Was I tone policing when I asked him to stop yelling? Honestly, when he does it, its scary. He's yelling at the tv/ players like they are in the room; like full blown sentences. Its not just an occasional "oh no!" its like "omg you f*cking idiots. You need to learn to play the f*cking game" (or something)

When he's yelling at the tv, I don't always know whether he's just walking around talking to himself and complaining about me/ the children. I guess it shouldn't matter if it is about me or the children, but at least I know whether to be extra careful on the eggshells.

[square]

Not SoT, of course, but I just wanted to say —

With my husband, I tried many ways to ensure certain basic needs were met for me and DD. Over time, I whittled away my expectations until there were just a few left that I would not budge from, and these were pretty basic and fundamental (such as food and ability to sleep).

I tried many ways to meet those needs without him changing his behavior (such as earplugs). And of course I tried many times to ask as kindly, urgently, and logically as possible for him to adjust the behavior at question.

Sometimes he refused, sometimes he agreed reluctantly, and sometimes he agreed without rancor. But even if he agreed, the agreement often did not hold for long.

I of course cannot control his behavior. But realizing that nothing I can do, no matter how calmly and sweetly and fairly and appreciatively, could get through, was the beginning of the end for me.

I had to face that I could like it, or leave. Problem solving, communication, compromise were not options.

[SonofThunder]

Hi SoT,
Can you help me gain some clarity to this situation-

I am putting our small children to bed. He is downstairs aggressively yelling at the tv (sports, I guess?). It happens once- I don't say anything. The second or third time, I text him and say,"Please stop yelling."
He says- "That was barely anything. Do you try hard to give me stuff? It feels like nothing gets unsaid."

Was I tone policing when I asked him to stop yelling? Honestly, when he does it, its scary. He's yelling at the tv/ players like they are in the room; like full blown sentences. Its not just an occasional "oh no!" its like "omg you f*cking idiots. You need to learn to play the f*cking game" (or something)

When he's yelling at the tv, I don't always know whether he's just walking around talking to himself and complaining about me/ the children. I guess it shouldn't matter if it is about me or the children, but at least I know whether to be extra careful on the eggshells.

DCF1952,

Proper boundaries dictate that we can only truly control ourselves and/or others we have responsibility to protect & care for.  A young child is a good example of the latter, where a parent takes responsibility for the wellbeing of the child. 

I want to add that I know two men who are very emotional about sports and yell at the television in sentences for both positive and negative events that are occurring in the game.  Im not that way, but imo its fairly common in my opinion.  Not respecting one's own child's needs to sleep is a different story. 

Since you cannot control your partners choices nor the volume of his voice and you have experience with his being unmindful about your/your child's need for sleep, then imo asking him to be quiet is a JADE and a JADE becomes a wide open door for some kind of abuse to walk through. 

To attempt to control another's tone of communication is an improper boundary for a non.  My PD's try to do it with me, because for them, it's an active attempt at control of me and I will protect myself from their attempts to control me.  Imo, what you are doing in your example is a request of someone you may already know is not going to respect the true need of the situation, but keep on disrespecting for a power feed and add to it a verbal put down, because you opened the door for it to occur. 

Boundary thoughts:

1. Im not certain about the details of your situation.  Since you already know the child's bedroom is close enough to be a difficult situation when your partner is watching sports, is there another place in the home that is more sound-insulated from the location of the television, in which the child can fall asleep on game-night?

2. Are you able to use a quality electronic background noise device in the child's bedroom on game-night that will insulate the child from the yelling/tv?

Imo the main subject-need of your post example is the need for the child to sleep. Your partner's choices for himself are his to deal with, so I advise you be creative, and not say a word to your partner. 

If the first two suggestions above are impossible, then I see two boundary moves which are more passive-aggressive in nature, but will silently highlight the need of a child's ability/inability to sleep and your own equal rights to control yourself. Both still allow you to not request anything of your partner. 

3. Silently pack a bag when your child cant sleep because he's yelling, and both you and the child go stay in a hotel for the evening, which may spend some of the family money to do so.  You have a right to do so.  That makes for one expensive TV game night!

4. After an unsuccessful attempt to sleep in the other room, you silently try and put the child to sleep right in the TV room during the game lol, not saying a word to your partner while switching rooms (even if its a couch or camping pad for a impromtu bed in the room).  You and your child have a right to be in any room in the home, anytime, just as he also has a right!  Your doing so may irritate your partner, to which he may proclaim his anger and you can, in mc/gray rock, state the truth; that sleep is unsuccessful in the bedroom on game night, so you are now trying the tv room. If you are asked to leave, refuse.  He is free to watch the game elsewhere if he desires or watch it in the TV room with his partner and sleepy child.   

SoT

[sunshine702]

Personality disorders OFTEN TELL ON THEMSELVES.  Pay attention to odd accusations or strange motives they are putting on you or angry statements out of nowhere.
Write it down.  Within several months you will see EXACTLY where that statement really came from.

We all know that signed of cheating include - accusing you of cheating.