I feel so much guilt.

[timothyhayes]

Hello everyone. It's been a while.

On my last post, I had talked about moving out and then went radio silent. I did not move out, which has made my relationship with my girlfriend considerably worse. And now I am sitting in my room, while my mother and father are holed up in the bedroom, giving me the silent treatment because there was a huge fight this morning.

Today is my mother's birthday. And I bought her a gift she'd mentioned she really wanted a month ago, put it in a bland, brown gift bag and added tissue paper to the top. Nothing crazy, but it got the job done. Well, she wanted pictures of her dog, so we hopped in my car and drove to the beach. On the way there she brought up how she had extra gift bags if I needed them. I told her I knew she did but I was fine. To which she continued to bring it up and eventually insinuate I was trying to take a jab at her and show her how little she means to me. I raised my voice in frustration and that was apparently the straw that broke the camel's back for her. After this she insulted me and told me to, "stop acting like a girl" when I told her something she said hurt me. And I was just so hurt that she was assuming I was trying to manipulate her with a gift bag. Unfortunately, her temper tantrum worsened, which led to her screaming and crying in the car. I was no saint--I was pissed off she was acting this way towards me. So, I did not add anything but fire to the situation. She's still upset with me and completely blames me for making her get to that point. To her credit, she does suffer with dysautonomia, but I can't place all the blame on it since she has always had an insanely short fuse.

I feel horrible. I'm riddled with guilt over having an argument with my mother on her birthday, when all I wanted to do was make her day special. But I feel like I can't do anything without her turning it back on me and playing the victim card. Even though she tells me I'm acting like a victim, manipulating and gaslighting her. And she says all that because she believes my girlfriend is pulling the strings from the shadows. She despises my girlfriend and will call her a c*nt or a wh*re to my face (my girlfriend has never heard this) and when I tell her to stop she gets even angrier. And at the core of all of this is my mother's issue with my girlfriend. She believes my girlfriend is a horrible person and refuses to ever speak to her again. She threatens that if "that thing" and I get married, she'll cut me off. Shouldn't a mother be supportive even if they don't like my partner? Especially when I love her? The stress this puts on me and my relationship is terrible. I lie whenever I go and visit her because I know there'll be a huge blow up from my mother. And when I told her I was afraid of her reaction she refused to apologize for her outbursts and told me I should have grown a spine.

I am hurt. I love my mother. I'm a wonderful son to her. I spend time with every. single. day. I know no others sons, in their 30s, would be able to give as much as I am. But when she gets upset like this, I become a horrible son who rejects her, doesn't appreciate her and wants to start things so I can rile her up--her words. My depression is through the roof, which has increased my weed usage to 4-5 bong hits a day. The moment I'm sober, depression cripples me.

Genuinely, what in the hell do I do? I need to leave, but the thought of facing her anger and potentially being cut off is difficult.

[Call Me Cordelia]

If she cut you off, my sincere opinion is she'd be doing you a huge favor. You've spent your entire life catering to this awful woman. If your mother were healthy, she's be far far more concerned that her son was living at home using pot every day than what kind of gift bag you used for crying out loud.

[NarcKiddo]

"Shouldn't a mother be supportive even if they don't like my partner?"

Yes, and no, is my opinion - IF we were dealing with a normal mother. There are circumstances in which people hook up with someone so patently unsuitable that all the family can do is step away, while making it clear that they love their child and will be there to pick up the pieces if it should all go wrong. However, I am talking here about the partners being, say, drug dealers or violent abusers. I assume your girlfriend is a normal person. Whatever the circumstances, it is quite unacceptable for your mother to call your girlfriend such names. And yet, the message you are giving your mother is that you do accept it.

You know you are a wonderful son who bends over backwards to make his mother happy. It sounds like she is the kind of person for whom nothing is enough and she will simply keep taking. It's up to you how much of yourself you will give. Not bowing to her every whim does not make you a bad son.

You know you need to leave - and I agree with Call Me Cordelia. It sounds like being cut off is a total bargain for the freedom you will get in return. Of course that thought is scary, but please bear in mind that sometimes the thought is scarier than the actuality. I was absolutely TERRIFIED when I started enforcing some boundaries with my mother. I thought the sky would fall in. It didn't. She backed down. Bullies usually do.

I wish you well.

[moglow]

Timothy, your mother is *choosing* to get angry over your choice of a gift bag - whatever her diagnoses that still seems quite a stretch. I mean, you got her something she really wanted for her birthday - how it is presented is a very small thing in the big picture. So yes, to me this seems way above and beyond the realm of understandable. She riled herself up - You didn't and can't make that choice for her.

It's all a lot of manufactured chaos and misery, and you're feeling guilty for her anger because that's what you're supposed to do in her world. She must manage everything and everyone in her purview. Fall short [and someone will because she's chosen that they will] and the poo hits the oscillating object. Over and over, ad nauseam.

You are not responsible for other people's choices, feelings, reactions. THEY ARE. I understand this is what you know and who she is, but you're still not in control of her. She should be, and technically she is because she's choosing this irrational anger and chaos time after time. You're a grown man in your 30s sneaking around to see and avoiding mention of his lady friend, feeling you have to hide it from your mother to prevent her rages - and yet she chooses to have yet another meltdown over the "wrong" gift bag.

Why must you face her anger over moving out - or more to the point, why should anyone be angry about it at all? In a normal world you make your plans, get everything in place and let them know when you're planning to move. It doesn't have to be a big discussion or confrontation, and certainly threats of cutting you off don't make sense to me on a practical level. Most parents understand their children are destined to grow up, leave home and build their own lives - that's a parent's job when you think about it, to raise productive decent human beings and celebrate their futures and successes. Many even help their kids move out and get things set up.

[moglow]

I suspect the key is somewhat in how you package it - it's not a bad thing or something to be ashamed of in any way. You're excited and happy and appreciate all they've done for you. There's not a downside to this, you're prepared (finally!) to fully support yourself and not be dependent on them.

You know what I'm saying here: It's been weighing on you that feel like you're draining them and are actually looking forward to being able to relieve them of that responsibility. It's a normal GOOD thing you're doing! You don't have to share every detail and concern - you may not have thought of xyz, but okay. Now you are and it's another thing to consider and box to check off.

Positivity and smiles and hear her out, AND you're still moving out. She stomps and snorts and tries to shoot holes in your plans and you understand what she's saying. And you're STILL moving. That's what adult children DO.

I think the big thing is to do some good self talk and make your plans ahead of time. You're telling them this is what you're doing, not asking permission or approval. And the girlfriend is not a factor in this, don't mention her, blow off any mention of her, and there's no need yet again to bash and berate you over your choices. Mother can and will think what she likes, and that is Not.Your.Stuff.

[Rebel13]

she's choosing this irrational anger and chaos time after time.

Ugh, sounds so familiar! Timothy, moglow has given you some excellent ideas and the beginnings of scripts and plans of action to deal with this situation. I hope you can take them to heart, think them over, adapt them to your needs and use them!

As additional fuel, think about your hopes and dreams for your life. If you don't have any now, think about the ones you had when you were younger. What were you going to do and be when you grew up? What are your favorite activities? What do you love to do, or would you love to do, that you can't do now? If you are in your own living situation, you can do whatever you want without anyone criticizing you or pitching a fit over your choices. That freedom is fantastic, something to look forward to, not to be feared. Can you translate the nervous system state you now call "fear" into what you could call "excitement"?

Stopping the marijuana use, if you can, might also help you feel more energized and motivated. I certainly understand the need and desire to self medicate, as a victim of narcissistic abuse, but I think you'll be better able to help yourself if you can find another coping skill while you learn how to get free and heal from your trauma. I put some of my favorites in the Resources section of the forum, but there are lots here and all over the internet.

Wishing you the best.

[square]

Hey there Mr. Hayes,

I'm not dealing with a PD parent, but there is an overlap to our situations, and that is that you are faced with the question of "should I - and can I - leave this toxic relationship and the home I live in?"

Clearly you have been thinking about this, and part of you thinks you should leave and wants to leave.

You would like to leave if you didn't have to pay a huge price. You are facing a kind of annihilation in a way - that your mother's disapproval might negate your very being.

I've spent a long time pondering leaving, and I am currently in the process of making it happen (and am scared). The process took a long time for a number of reasons, most of them practical. But during this time, I pondered what leaving could look like. I wished I could leave with him being fine with it, somehow. Like we could part friends or something. Instead of being told that I destroyed everything, that I spent my entire life scheming to destroy him, that I am evil incarnate, and on and on.

I wondered what kinds of scenarios you had considered in your wildest dreams of leaving.

I bet one such scenario might be to leave and *disappear*.

Is that at all a solution for you?

Would you be able to face leaving better if you could just skip the emotional evisceration that I assume you will face?

Yes, of course you would still feel the guilt of leaving. But if you WANT to leave, would skipping that scene be enough to turn it from a "no way" scenario to a "......maybe?"

I'm assuming your mother is pretty much always in the home and perhaps you have no way of timing a move-out while she is gone. But if you have money saved up that would allow you to rent somewhere, what if you.. just left most of your stuff? Just snuck out the really critical items like your laptop and papers and a few precious items and a few changes of clothes in a backpack, maybe snuck out over a period of a few days?

And then..... *poof*.

Maybe that's no answer for you. But I just wanted to throw that idea out there. What does it do to you emotionally to think about it? Do you feel any relief at the idea? Or does it seem actually worse than just saying "ma, I'm sick of being a burden to you, I'm moving out, yeah I hear you saying I'm a bad son but you do so much for me, I know you've sacrificed so much, I'm going to finally do right by you and I've got my own place... oh, I'm a horrible son? I guess it really is time I left, then."

[walking on broken glass]

I am sorry you are still going through a hard time.
I would encourage you to look back at the posts you made here over the years. Has anything changed? Or does the cycle continue? Do you think that the way you behave towards your parents makes the least bit of difference in the way they treat you? Or do they just abuse, mistreat, and gaslight you, no matter what you say and do?
You were about to move out but they you didn't. Why? What could possibly be worse than what you are facing right now?
You might not realize it now but this is taking a toll on both your physical and mental health (you are already self-medicating). What do you think will happen in the long run? Do you ever see yourself emancipated, free, perhaps living with your girlfriend and building your own life away from toxicity?

If I remember well, you had mentioned that you were going to see a therapist outside your paretns' influence. Did this plan materialize?

There is another, better way to live, if only you could see it.

[Aingeal]

The gift bag was fine.   Her behavior sounds A LOT like my narcmom - they like to ruin events, holidays etc., even their own birthdays just to feed off your emotions, your disappointment.  It gives them satisfaction to control like that. 

I think you were baited and gaslit and then blamed for a fight she picked.... On her birthday - her choice not yours. Please don't feel guilty, narcissists know how to push our buttons and they do. 

Trying to please a narcissist is like trying to fill a big pot with holes in it full of water.... It'll never happen.

BTW I'm betting your girlfriend is a lovely supportive partner and narc moms can't stand that.  If their offspring are in a happy marriage narc mothers will try to destroy it: 1. Because it takes time and attention away from Mother.  2. Because adult child is happy and bonus - because it's fun and narcissists can't stand to see anyone happy (it's part of their own self loathing).

Good luck and try to slowly back away from her and too much time with her, that feeds into the depression and emotional drain on you.

[Liketheducks]

Ugh, I'm sorry.   The gift bag is all sorts of manufactured nonsense.

But, the relationship thing....
I don't know if you've shared how the relationship with your girlfriend is going.   To name call in that way, is toxic.   If my kiddo was involved in a toxic relationship and turned to me to vent or for support....I would be supportive of my adult child.   Knowing that relationships can be complicated, name calling like that seems like splitting.   That's right up my NPD Mom's alley.   Unsolicited, she accused my spouse of being abusive numerous times.   Said he was an "ass-h@#e".   I told her that I wouldn't tolerate that and that if I had a problem with my spouse, that that was between me and my spouse.   If I needed her support, I'd ask for it.    But, earlier in life, she was actually pretty helpful with me in a toxic relationship.   I would complain/vent about my experience with this boyfriend, and eventually, mom said that she was there for me (despite not really being there for me) but that she couldn't listen to me complain without me coming up with a plan for how I could change my situation.   Granted, I was with this boyfriend for far too long and my relationship "bar" was on the floor at the time.   

[mary_poppins]

This stood out
"I feel horrible. I'm riddled with guilt over having an argument with my mother on her birthday, when all I wanted to do was make her day special."
It sounds like you want your mother to be a nice mother, a loving mother. And what do adult children do with loving mothers on their bdays? They celebrate these mothers and the mothers are grateful in return.
Your mother is not a loving mother. She manufactured feelings of guilt in you. She made you feel bad for giving her a gift. That's a disordered, unloving mother.

What I would do is start dealing with my c-PTSD and do some inner child work. Our inner child has been damaged growing up with an abusive mother. But as an adult is our responsability to re-parent this damaged inner child. This is part of our recovery from having unloving mothers.

[mary_poppins]

If she cut you off, my sincere opinion is she'd be doing you a huge favor. You've spent your entire life catering to this awful woman. If your mother were healthy, she's be far far more concerned that her son was living at home using pot every day than what kind of gift bag you used for crying out loud.

I agree, Cordelia. OMG, I wish my mom would go NC with me but she'd never do that. Some adult children were lucky enough to have their NPD parents cut them off.

[timothyhayes]

I would encourage you to look back at the posts you made here over the years. Has anything changed? Or does the cycle continue?

Thank you so much for this reply. This hit like a sack of bricks, because I wasn't even aware I'd be posting on this forum since 2022. I've been through nearly 3 years of this and it hasn't gotten any better. I can't believe I still have a relationship with my girlfriend (albeit rocky due to the circumstances).

Looking back at my original post from 2022 is extremely deflating. I have made no progress in all this time. I'm still afraid to enforce my boundaries about my relationship which has lead me to never bringing it up around them. This is so ridiculously difficult but I can see it's not going to change. I want to have a genuine heart-to-heart with my mother but I don't know if it'll do anything. She says she's sorry, but she's said that since 2022.

Also, a new phrase my mother has picked up is, "just remember this never happened until that girl came into the picture" as if she's saying her extreme blowups and meltdowns are justifiable. Which is another reason why I want to explain how this hurts me.

[NarcKiddo]

It's good to see you back but I am sorry to see you are plagued by the same old problems. We've all been there and I know how hard it is to break free.

I don't want to be mean but they say the definition of madness is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

Your mother has said the same old thing since 2022. I expect you have had many genuine heart to heart conversations with her over the years. Genuine from your side. I think you know that another one is not going to do anything. Your mother will likely revert to her new catchphrase. As far as I can tell from what you have posted here there is no point whatsoever in explaining to your mother how she hurts you. Best case - she will not get it. Worst case - she will not care. Either way it does not look like she will change her ways. I am sorry to be so blunt.

In your first post on this thread you said you need to leave. Emotionally I know you are not sure you can, but physically and financially are you able to? Because if you can I think you really should. I think the only way your mother will take you seriously is if she knows you are an adult man who can live independently from her because you demonstrate that to her. Saying it is clearly not enough - and maybe you also need to demonstrate that fact to yourself.

I'm rooting for you and hoping you can make 2025 a good year for you!

[Danie]

I am 68 and I made it without my mother. I know it's hard when you love them, but she will destroy your life if you don't get away from her asap. Get some therapy for yourself to heal the damage she's already done. Don't give in to the depression.

My mom is still in the picture-read my post about food hoarding. I am still dealing with her, but she actually moved away for many years and I had peace. Now she is back and it is really hard once again. My therapist is telling me to cut her off! When I struggle with that idea he suggested do if for 1 year and I thought that was brilliant. You can even tell her, "I need a year without you to get myself together". Not blaming her, but letting her know you want to save yourself.

Trying to sort out the gift bag etc. is kind of pointless, but what else can you do? She has big issues she cannot fix on her own.

[timothyhayes]

Thank you NarcKiddo & Danie. I appreciate the bluntness--I need it.

If I wanted to, I could move out on my own or with my girlfriend. But I am finding this to be so difficult and I'm so frustrated that I can't seem to grow some balls and just do this. I told my girlfriend I'll come up tomorrow and stay the weekend, but I still haven't brought it up to my parents, specifically my mother. That hold right there is insane. I don't believe I can just walk out the door and head to my partner. I know my mother would immediately begin questioning me and if I hinted at my girlfriend, she'd blow her lid.

I am frustrated with myself. I value my mother's feelings more than my own and especially my partner. I need to stand up, but I don't want to feel that twang of pain my parents seem to inflict when I do something they don't agree with.

[Danie]

I get the inability to stand up to them. Even though my mother treated me terribly I still get that hook to stay connected. My therapist, now, said the words "she ruined your life" and you know it's true in many ways. Even though I'm still existing I suffered and struggled because of her and still am. Life is not meant to be painful and full of remorse.
You really need a therapist and more support around you; don't cave in. Make a plan. If you love your girlfriend fight for that relationship because they aren't always replaceable. Do what you gotta do to survive, but really the stuff she is saying to you is going to affect your whole life. My mom did that too! Both of my sisters are now getting divorced. One is 67 and one is 69. Their husbands filed for it because they are screwed up and a lot of it is from our childhood.
I can't imagine going through that at my age. Everything I've worked for getting ripped apart. You don't wanna be in that position when you have your whole life ahead of you so get yourself on track for what is healthy and normal and don't let her destroy you.

[NarcKiddo]

I'm really happy to read that you could move out and I really do urge you to make that move. None of my business, but I'd also suggest you move on your own and not go straight to live with your girlfriend. Even if you go to live close to her you are going to find it really tough and weird at first to get used to living away from your mother when you eventually do it. It's probably not fair to expect your girlfriend to deal with that all the time but more importantly I think you need to start to find and trust yourself. You can't really do that if you are living with someone else. Plus your mother cannot blow up about you living with your girlfriend if in fact you are not.

I hope you manage to get away for the weekend with your girlfriend. She sounds like she is pretty understanding if she has tolerated the difficulties thus far.

[Rebel13]

Hi again Timothy,

I am rooting for you! I know what it's like to dread the pain you'll feel in the face of your mom's reactivity. I have a couple of thoughts about that in case they are helpful to you.

1) Think/imagine your way through it. You obviously have tons of experience with those reactions, so take some time to sit somewhere quietly by yourself and bring up that feeling, a little bit, and practice handling it. Some ways of managing it might be breathing exercises, something like thought-stopping, or positive self talk. The self-talk statement my therapist has given me is "This is a real feeling, but it's not happening now."  Check out more strategies from both dialectical behavior therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy, as they can be helpful with things like this, you can practice them on your own, and there are tons of resources for them online (e.g. Facebook groups). I also like the Youtube channel Therapy in a Nutshell -- there are tons of videos with techniques for specific situations and emotions. The most important thing is to find something that works FOR YOU -- different people need different techniques and in my experience it's so important to feel in charge of the process. Abuse from PDs relies a LOT on making us not think about what WE want and need, and undermines our belief that it's OK to prioritize ourselves.

2) Once you have practiced calming yourself in the face of the feeling and convincing yourself you can handle it, I think you'll feel more confident taking action. Maybe leaving for the entire weekend is too big of a step for you right now. You could practice with something smaller, like going out for a coffee/tea. When your mom asks where are you going, you practice the technique you picked in step 1 right then (deep breath, think of a positive message, etc.), and say, "Going out for coffee, see you in a bit!" And you put on your jacket and you go. You don't get into a discussion about it, you don't answer questions, you don't JADE . You just leave. You're a grownup and you get to run your own life. If your mom is following you, you can just keep repeating "Bye, see you in a bit!" until you are out and away. Then go sit somewhere and do your exercise again until you feel calm. If she's upset when you come back, you can say, "I'm sorry you feel that way," remove yourself from her presence as soon as you can, and do the exercise to cope with the stress and pain. And give yourself mad props for getting through it, doing something for yourself, and taking care of yourself!

I really wish you a lot of luck. You deserve to enjoy your life and be free of the stress and pain of this abuse, but no one can give you that but you.

[walking on broken glass]

Hi Timothy! I am glad you are back, but sorry to hear you are struggling. I was thinking of you and how you were doing. Rebel and Narckiddo have given you lots of good advice.

Please don't talk yourself down because you find it very difficult to stand up to your mum. You have been conditioned to be obliging and obedient. It is a very hard pattern to break. But it is possible! I like Rebel's idea of taking small steps towards freedom. One day you go for a coffee without giving them advance notice or information, another day maybe for a walk, then a full weekend. Don't stay back to answer questions when they try to grab you. You can even put headphones on to make it easier for you. It would also be a good idea to have a therapist to assist you with all this and give you reassurance. It is very difficult but lots of people have made it to the other side. You can do this. I know you can do this because you are already thinking about it, which is the first step. You are not complicit and you are not happy. Allow yourself to be angry instead of sad and utilize your anger to get yourself out of this situation.

How about you come up with a small task and try to go through with it and then write to us here about it? Something that would be liberating for you. It doesn't have to be something big, even something like 'my mum tried to pick a fight with me about my girlfriend and I left the room, closed the door behind me and refused to engage'. Maybe a small victory would make you feel more optimistic about the future.